{"error":false,"id":["151355"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":151355,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151355","日期":"2024-04-18","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-20-9","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第9次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":9,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[20],"委員會代碼:str":["財政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第9次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-04-18T09:34:21+08:00","結束時間":"2024-04-18T09:45:17+08:00","影片長度":"00:10:56","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/566e821c95e2b445fc1fe2ba987051840525562164469c9cc5dab72e655c1c949b8b8693ecf6548c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"09:34:21 - 09:45:17","會議時間":"2024-04-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算決議，有關行政院主計總處預算凍結書面報告案15案。\n二、處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算決議，有關第二預備金預算凍結書面報告案1案。\n三、處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算決議，有關審計部主管預算凍結書面報告案11案。\n四、審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算決議，有關行政院主計總處預算凍結書面報告案3案。\n五、審查「證券投資信託及顧問法」3案：（僅詢答）\n(一)行政院函請審議、本院委員郭國文等16人擬具「證券投資信託及顧問法部分條文修正草案」等2案。\n(二)本院委員林楚茵等17人擬具「證券投資信託及顧問法第一條、第二條及第三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n六、審查本院委員郭國文等16人擬具「不動產證券化條例部分條文修正草案」案。（僅詢答））","gazette":{"lineno":188,"blocks":[["林委員德福：（9時34分）謝謝主席。是不是請金管會黃主委？"],["主席：有請黃主委。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員早。"],["林委員德福：主委你好。因為媒體報導去年一再傳出投信基金經理人跟單的問題，讓金管會警覺目前事前、事後的預防及交易監控管理機制已不夠發生嚇阻作用，決定要來修法。請問主委，你認為投信基金經理人出現跟單的問題到底是個案、人謀不臧的問題，還是投信公司本身公司治理出了重大的狀況？你認為呢？"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，我認為兩個都有。"],["林委員德福：兩個都有？"],["黃主任委員天牧：兩個都有。而且我可不可以多講幾句話？"],["林委員德福：可以。"],["黃主任委員天牧：其實我們在今年2月份已經針對這些情況訂了一套完整的措施，目前正在推動。"],["林委員德福：這樣啊！那你認為在這種狀況下，參與股市投資的散戶是不是有可能成為被坑殺的重災區？會不會？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是不是重災我不敢講，但是這種行為是不可取的。"],["林委員德福：不可取嘛？"],["黃主任委員天牧：對。"],["林委員德福：主委，我再請教，因為京城銀和中信金談合併、併購的金額至少有500億元，金管會有沒有掌握這樣的消息？"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，這件事情我們金管會現在的態度是我們不予評論。"],["林委員德福：不予評論？"],["黃主任委員天牧：因為有沒有這件事情或是它怎麼樣發展，我想……"],["林委員德福：那你們的態度呢？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們對於任何金融機構經過合理程序所要達成的合併，只要依照金融機構合併法、金控法和企併法去做，這個過去都有相關的成例和既定的程序，但是個案部分我們今天不予評論。謝謝。"],["林委員德福：好，那你就請回。","我請朱主計長。"],["主席：有請朱主計長。"],["朱主計長澤民：委員好。"],["林委員德福：主計長，因為央行總裁上個月說假如長期通膨平均漲幅到1.5%，甚至1.5%至2%，很顯然就是通膨出現結構性的轉變，利率恐怕就不會像以前那麼低檔，那我請問主計長，假如通膨真的出現結構性的轉變，你認為民眾在生活上會面臨哪些衝擊呢？"],["朱主計長澤民：就是某些物品長期的話，會不能像早期那樣的一個……"],["林委員德福：再降下來是不是？就是上去就永遠上去……"],["朱主計長澤民：對。"],["林委員德福：就沒辦法下來。","通膨出現結構性轉變的實質反應是不是可以從CPI的變化來推估？"],["朱主計長澤民：CPI是一個市場現象，很難做推估，我們只能說他所說的結構現象是有些像服務業，它的薪水一上去以後就不大可能下來……"],["林委員德福：所以還是要……"],["朱主計長澤民：它因為成本面的因素影響。"],["林委員德福：對，所以要參考其他因素才能夠充分判斷，是不是？"],["朱主計長澤民：對，因為某些商品容易受到災損或國際因素影響，像油價之類的。"],["林委員德福：因為媒體報導主計總處綜合統計處處長蔡鈺泰表示，長期CPI年增率會比過去高，如果是相對穩定狀態也是正面；如果每年1%或2%的增幅，反映某種程度需求有力量，企業就有機會調薪，員工就有能力消費，長期來看是正面的，若硬要壓低CPI，員工不能加薪，民眾不敢消費，反而是惡性循環。主計長，對於長期CPI年增率比過去高，如果是相對穩定狀態也是正面的說法，請問你認同嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：我非常認同，因為……"],["林委員德福：你非常認同？"],["朱主計長澤民：因為它上去以後，薪資結構也跟著上去，你硬要把它壓下來，很可能會通貨緊縮。"],["林委員德福：那我請問你，這種說法到底是呈現什麼必要的條件，才是蔡處長所表達的相對穩定狀態也是正面的？"],["朱主計長澤民：物價因為某些衝擊而像水平面的水一樣上去，它上去以後將來是一個穩定的變化，這是一個健康的現象。"],["林委員德福：按照媒體報導，蔡處長說CPI年增率比過去高，是反映某種程度需求有力量，企業就有機會調薪，員工就有能力消費，長期來看是正面的；反之，如果硬要壓低CPI，員工就不能加薪、民眾不敢消費，反而是惡性的循環。我請問主計長，就你的瞭解，民間企業年度調薪的主要參考依據是CPI嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：CPI是一個因素，當然也要考慮到它的商品能夠出售的價格彈性，還有考慮到它成本面的一些其他成本，因為薪資只是因素之一。"],["林委員德福：所以是不是只有公務員調薪才以CPI作為標準？是不是這樣？"],["朱主計長澤民：公務員的調薪，它只是一個指標，因為公務人員大概只有五、六十萬人，而我們全國的勞工有大概近千萬人。"],["林委員德福：請問主計長，如果CPI年增率2%，企業調薪也是年增率超過2%以上，或許長期來看是正面的。問題是，這樣的調薪規模，請問主計長，你認為是現實生活中企業調薪的常態嗎？你認為呢？"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告，薪資的調整也要看他生產力的情況，也就是勞工所生產物品的價值，他附加價值的提高。如果附加價值提高，那麼勞工薪資應該給予適當的報酬，這樣才有誘因。"],["林委員德福：如果是常態，長期來看當然是正面；反之，如果只有鳳毛麟角的企業調薪，請問不壓低CPI，難道是要讓這些山道猴子的個案增加，轉化成多數民眾的通案嗎？你認為呢？"],["朱主計長澤民：根據我們的統計，一般來講，薪資都是往上的趨勢，雖然最近的實質薪資並沒有那麼多，可是我們的薪資長期是一個往上的趨勢。"],["林委員德福：更何況在貧富差距極端的環境，光壓低CPI真的能夠緩和民眾生活所面對的壓力嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告，物價是不能人為的壓低，我們對於弱勢群眾生活所必須的支出，政府是應該給予適當的補助，這也是社會福利的一個必要性。"],["林委員德福：主計長，我請問你，媒體報導臺鐵公司化以後，首次招募放榜，但錄取人數卻不如預期。有民眾認為最低起薪只有3.3萬，條件實在是很難以吸引人，所以臺鐵產業工會建議，臺鐵在相關證照、加給和津貼上，應該要有所提升。我請問主計長，臺鐵招考的新聞報導，你有關注過嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：因為臺鐵已經公司化，它應該是由公司的董事會來做考量，我們只是……"],["林委員德福：對，公司化，就是連……"],["朱主計長澤民：我們只是看它有沒有違法……"],["林委員德福：連國營事業的臺鐵，薪資結構都沒有辦法跟上時代，請問這難道不是政府帶頭用低薪用人嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：國營事業的調薪，有他們一定的規定，而且我剛才講到董事會也會做考量，他們已經公司化了，他們應該是會做適當的調應。"],["林委員德福：雖然公司化，但如果真的是政府起頭的作用，又如何期待民間企業有辦法配合CPI年增率的腳步，給予員工符合現實生活需求的薪水呢？你的看法呢？"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告一下，政府機構的帶頭是指公務人員的調薪，至於國營事業要不要跟進，那個是由他們公司治理內部來決定。"],["林委員德福：所以以整體來看，主計長你看，每一年政府只要調薪以後，其實一般民間的企業不一定會跟著調，而且很多外面的物價反而是藉著公務人員的調薪，又把物價調上來。講實在話，調薪以後有一些正面影響，當然也有很多的負面影響，反而讓很多沒有調薪的民眾，他們的痛苦指數繼續飆高。我想這一點，主計總處應該要去關注，謝謝。"],["朱主計長澤民：是的。"],["主席：好，謝謝林德福委員的質詢。也跟所有的委員報告，如果有相關的修正動議，請儘速送財政委員會議事人員收件，以利後續審查程序進行。","接著我們請吳委員秉叡委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":478,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-9","speakers":["郭國文","林楚茵","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","李彥秀","賴惠員","王鴻薇","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","黃珊珊","李坤城","王世堅","陳玉珍","羅明才","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","楊瓊瓔","鍾佳濱","黃國昌","顏寬恒"],"page_start":413,"meetingDate":["2024-04-18"],"gazette_id":"1133101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133101_00012"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理中華民國 113 年度中央政府總預算決議，有關行政院主計總處預算凍結書面報告案 15\n案；二、處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算決議，有關第二預備金預算凍結書面報告案1案；\n三、處理中華民國 113 年度中央政府總預算決議，有關審計部主管預算凍結書面報告案 11 案；\n四、審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算決議，有關行政院主計總處預算凍結書面報告案3案；\n五、審查「證券投資信託及顧問法」 3 案： ( 一 ) 行政院函請審議、本院委員郭國文等 16 人擬具\n「證券投資信託及顧問法部分條文修正草案」等2案、(二)本院委員林楚茵等17人擬具「證券投\n資信託及顧問法第一條、第二條及第三條之一條文修正草案」案（僅詢答）；六、審查本院委員\n郭國文等16人擬具「不動產證券化條例部分條文修正草案」案（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"1133101_00019"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.99659375,"end":5.262218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.3590937499999995,"end":9.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.62846875,"end":11.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.39971875,"end":17.074718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.074718750000002,"end":35.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.83409375,"end":17.95221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":35.704718750000005,"end":48.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":49.01909375,"end":53.862218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":54.87471875000001,"end":55.650968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.650968750000004,"end":68.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.96534375,"end":68.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.98221875,"end":69.26909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":69.26909375000001,"end":69.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.37034375,"end":69.47159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":69.47159375000001,"end":79.12409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":79.64721875000001,"end":81.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.01409375,"end":81.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":81.03096875,"end":81.06471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.06471875000001,"end":81.08159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":81.53721875000001,"end":81.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.58784375,"end":81.62159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":81.62159375,"end":82.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.02659375,"end":84.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":84.33846875,"end":84.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.96284375,"end":85.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":85.03034375,"end":85.06409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.06409375000001,"end":85.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":85.18221875,"end":85.26659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":85.58721875,"end":95.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.18159375,"end":89.63721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":95.67846875000001,"end":100.21784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.28096875,"end":112.51971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.97534375000001,"end":113.97096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":113.97096875000001,"end":114.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.82721875,"end":129.29346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.56346875,"end":133.03971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.51221875000002,"end":138.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":138.23721875,"end":142.33784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.09721875,"end":144.02534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":146.99534375000002,"end":176.98221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":177.80909375000002,"end":178.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.02846875,"end":179.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.57659375,"end":182.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.32721875000001,"end":191.19096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.27534375000002,"end":191.30909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":191.30909375000002,"end":203.03721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.03721875000002,"end":218.30909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.78159375,"end":220.03034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":220.03034375000001,"end":223.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.94971875000002,"end":234.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":231.03284375,"end":231.42096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.23909375000002,"end":234.25596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":234.25596875000002,"end":235.52159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":236.19659375,"end":257.81346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":257.89784375,"end":269.00159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":269.57534375,"end":286.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.65846875,"end":278.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.02846875,"end":286.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":286.11284375,"end":286.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.58534375,"end":288.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":287.91846875000005,"end":288.79596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.79596875000004,"end":297.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":297.97596875,"end":308.55659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.10534375000003,"end":323.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":323.99721875,"end":348.06096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":348.66846875000005,"end":352.34721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.34721875,"end":352.43159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":352.43159375000005,"end":354.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":354.03471875,"end":354.42284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start"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"},{"start":218.849,"end":232.419,"text":"因素的影響對是要參考其他因素才能夠充分的判斷對不對因為有市場的那個像像我某些容易受到那個災損然後國際因因素的影響的像油價之類的因為媒體報導齁"},{"start":236.26,"end":257.018,"text":"主計總處總和統計處處長蔡玉泰表示長期CPI年增率會比過去高如果是相對穩定的狀態也是正面那如果每年1%或2%的增幅反應某種程度的需求有力量那企業就會這個調薪"},{"start":260.1,"end":260.881,"text":"一、處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案2案"},{"start":281.172,"end":295.16,"text":"阿如果是相對穩定的態度也是正面的說法請問主計長你認同嗎我非常的認同因為他上去以後阿那個薪資的結構也跟著上去你硬要把他壓下來阿很可能會通貨緊縮"},{"start":297.782,"end":323.295,"text":"好 那我請問你這種說法到底是呈現什麼必要的條件才是蔡處長所表達的相對穩定的狀態才是所謂的正面一個物價因為某些的一個衝擊它就像那個水平面的水一樣上去它上去以後將來是一個穩定的一個變化這一個是一個健康的現象好 那個主計長"},{"start":324.255,"end":347.111,"text":"按照媒體報導蔡處長的說法CPI的廉增率是反映某種程度需求有力量那企業有機會來調薪那員工就有能力來消費長期來看是正面的反之啊倒過來如果硬要壓低CPI員工就不能加薪民眾不敢消費反而是惡性的循環那我請問主計長"},{"start":348.732,"end":356.135,"text":"就你的了解,年度民間企業調薪的主要參考依據是CPI嗎?所以說是不是只有公務員調薪才以CPI作為標準,是不是這樣子?"},{"start":372.921,"end":383.36,"text":"公務員的調薪他只是一個指標因為公務人員的只有大概五、六十萬人那我們全國的勞工是有大概近千萬人"},{"start":384.585,"end":399.277,"text":"那請問主計長如果CPI年增率2%企業調薪也是年增超過2%以上那麼或許長期來看是正面的那問題是這樣的一個調薪規模請問這個主計長你認為是現實生活中這個企業調薪的常態嗎"},{"start":409.626,"end":437.793,"text":"那個委員報告一下薪資的調整應該也要看他的一個生產力的情況就是說他所謂就是勞工他所生產物品的一個價值啦就是他附加價值的提高他附加價值提高的話那勞工的薪資啊應該給他適當的報酬這樣子才有一個誘因那如果要是常態那長期來看當然是正面反之啊如果後毛領角的企業調薪生態"},{"start":440.275,"end":450.031,"text":"請問不壓低CPI難道是要讓這些山道猴子的個案增加轉化成多數民眾的通案嗎?你認為呢?那個是"},{"start":452.38,"end":476.774,"text":"我們的統計是一般來講薪資都是一個往上的一個趨勢雖然最近的實質薪資並沒有說是有那麼多可是長期我們的薪資是一個往上的趨勢那更何況在貧富差距極端的環境光壓低CPI真的能夠緩和民眾生活"},{"start":477.91,"end":502.841,"text":"吳記長"},{"start":503.621,"end":524.152,"text":"我請問媒體報導台鐵公司公司化以後首次招募放榜但入取人卻不如預期有民眾認為最低起薪只有3.33萬條件實在是很難以吸引人所以說台鐵產業工會則建議台鐵在相關證照和"},{"start":533.755,"end":555.175,"text":"這個加擠和津貼上應該要有所提升那我請問主席長這個台鐵招考新聞報導你有關注過嗎因為台鐵他已經公司化他應該是由公司的董事會來做一個考量公司化對我們只是看他有沒有違法"},{"start":557.217,"end":580.87,"text":"連這個國營事業的台鐵新資結構都沒有辦法跟上時代那請問這難道不是政府帶頭這個用低薪再用人嗎對國營事業的條薪他有他們的一定的一個規定而且我剛剛才講到董事會也會做一個考量他們已經那個公式化已經公式化了他們應該是會做適當的一個調印"},{"start":584.112,"end":601.67,"text":"雖然公式化但如果真的是政府帶頭起頭的一個作用又如何期待民間企業有辦法配合CPI年增率的腳步給員工符合現實生活需求的這些薪水那個跟委員報告一下"},{"start":603.071,"end":615.166,"text":"政府機構的一個帶頭是指公務人員的一個條型對於說國營事業要不要跟進那個是由他們公司治理來內部來決定所以說以整體來看,處紀長,其實你看"},{"start":619.091,"end":647.106,"text":"每一年政府只要調薪以後其實一般民間的企業他不一定會跟著調對不對而且很多這些外面的這些物價反而是藉著因為公務人員的調薪又把物價調上來反而造成講實在話這個調薪以後有一些正面當然也有很多的負面反而讓很多民眾沒有調薪的他們的痛苦指數繼續飆高"},{"start":649.817,"end":653.039,"text":"我想這一點主計處應該要去關注,謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}