{"error":false,"id":["151372"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":151372,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151372","日期":"2024-04-18","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-19-8","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":8,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[19],"委員會代碼:str":["經濟委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-04-18T09:55:51+08:00","結束時間":"2024-04-18T10:08:56+08:00","影片長度":"00:13:05","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/566e821c95e2b4456ab6d108855bb06504d5d2f84b0f7606c5dab72e655c1c945a269d54d767ffee5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"09:55:51 - 10:08:56","會議時間":"2024-04-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於經濟部主管：經濟作業基金、水資源作業基金、經濟特別收入基金、核能發電後端營運基金。(詢答)）","gazette":{"lineno":541,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（9時56分）謝謝主席，請王部長。"],["主席：我們再請王部長。"],["王部長美花：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：部長今天有笑容了！"],["王部長美花：其實一直都是有笑容。"],["張委員啓楷：我們來問有笑容的部長，最近電跟水都很緊張喔！最近會不會大停電，或者是限水？"],["王部長美花：電的部分，因為地震，在地震當天就有機組故障，事後這幾天因為地震造成相關的管線破管等等狀況陸續出現，確實是之後才發生這個事情。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，剛才總經理說內傷，很多地方有內傷，等一下來看看內傷的問題。"],["王部長美花：是、是，沒錯。"],["張委員啓楷：現在比較嚴重的，我先跟你說一下，在15號那一天就出現北臺灣可能會大限電，對不對？16號桃園地區有近萬戶大停電，我跟你說，桃園不是只有16號近萬戶大停電，你知道今天早上桃園又有三個地方停電了嗎？我先跟你說明一下，桃園市桃鶯路今天早上7點14分有17戶停電，另外在龍潭中正路跟中興路一帶，今天早上7點57分饋線跳脫，造成5,332戶停電，搶修完以後，現在還有678戶停電；另外，桃園區三林里、大平里、民有路，7點56分有4605戶停電，加總起來有近一萬戶喔！部長，怎麼會這麼嚴重？不只是16號已經大停電一次了，今天早上七點多又有，加起來超過一萬戶喔！"],["王總經理耀庭：這個是配電的問題，就是線路，因為我們的線路總共長度大概三十幾萬公里，其中某些地方偶爾會有一些狀況發生，這算是線路的問題。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，現在大家會擔心，對不對？16號這樣，今天一早又這樣。"],["王部長美花：我想可能還是要跟大家說明，相關的配電系統因為纜線很長，設備非常多，今天早上確實也有相關的雷雨，相關的氣候也確實會讓機組故障，有一些故障其實台電很快就可以把它修復，有一些如果要更換，會花多一點點時間來修復，台電其實都用最快的時間來進行維修的動作。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我知道大家都很辛苦，但我們要將心比心，你若是停電的家庭，你會怎麼想這個事情？"],["王部長美花：是，所以台電都用最有效率……"],["張委員啓楷：不管是做生意的跟一般家庭，而且是太密集了，現在我們要的不是解釋問題的內閣，你們現在解釋之後要解決嘛，對不對？"],["王部長美花：那當然，但你要知道問題是什麼問題。"],["張委員啓楷：現在停電的頻率看起來是在增加當中，而且看起來是有危機，我們來看一下為什麼會有危機？天氣越來越熱，對不對？用電的尖峰期馬上就要到了，夏天馬上就要到。第二個，核三廠一號機7月就要除役了，對不對？"],["王部長美花：一號機是7月，是。"],["張委員啓楷：核三廠一號機3.5%的用電量，到時候又會變少了，對不對？第三個，就是剛才總經理說的，你現在還在內傷，現在餘震跟地震還是頻傳的，這個都是現在很嚴重的危機，所以拜託一下，至少在部長下臺之前，不要再出現像今天早上這樣的跳電，好不好？或者這樣停電，可不可以？儘量不要再大停電了。我們來看一下好不好？"],["王部長美花：設備故障我們一定要把它做到好，但是要保證設備都不會故障，我沒有辦法做這樣的保證。"],["張委員啓楷：不過不能太頻繁啦！好不好？"],["王部長美花：這個我們一定會來……"],["張委員啓楷：不能太頻繁……"],["王部長美花：我們一定會來檢討。"],["張委員啓楷：不要讓一般的民眾民生受到影響，不要讓企業發展受到影響，像張善政就出來罵了啊！他說桃園市那麼多的工廠、那麼多的公司，整個產業發展會受很大影響，民眾受到的影響更大。","我另外給你看一個更嚴重的，現在我們缺電缺到什麼程度？現在都挖東牆補西牆是不是？現在可能不是只有缺電的問題，現在可能都還要限水，你看一下，石門水庫現在的水量剩多少？24.5%對不對？曾文水庫剩下34.5%，我去統計，17號下午，全臺已經有8座的水庫蓄水量是低於3成了，結果現在更嚴重的是什麼？第一個，不是只有缺水而已，這已經接近百年枯水期對不對？更嚴重是什麼？像現在……"],["王部長美花：沒有、沒有，跟百年枯水期差很多。"],["張委員啓楷：有接近啦，兩成多了嘛！對不對？"],["王部長美花：沒有，差很多。"],["張委員啓楷：兩成多啦！今天有一個最新的新聞，你看一下，你的水位那麼低，24.5%，你看石門水庫已經降到24.5%了，結果你水力發電用了多少？90.44%；曾文水庫用了多少？98.8%，今天甚至更新的消息，台電叫石門水庫、叫水利署這邊要發電，現在水已經在缺了，本來就要節省水了對不對？結果你現在叫它水力發電，水力就流失了嘛！"],["王部長美花：跟委員報告……"],["張委員啓楷：犧牲水，結果今天最新的……"],["王部長美花：完全不會犧牲水，因為它是上游把電發下來，下游都存著，然後這個存著的水，看看民生要多少、農業用水要多少再來用，完全沒有浪費。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，現在除了明潭是有上下抽蓄的，對不對？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["張委員啓楷：你在發電的過程裡面本來就會受影響，所以今天包括這個消息……"],["王部長美花：不會、不會。"],["張委員啓楷：今天最新的消息，不是水利署都出來講了……"],["王部長美花：沒有，我們那個還有下池……"],["張委員啓楷：他們拒絕台電……"],["王部長美花：它只是發電放水的時間去搭配相關的尖峰，但是放了水一定都是下面有一個下池，這個池再來看什麼時候用水，完全不會浪費。"],["張委員啓楷：好，部長，我們再來看下一張……"],["王部長美花：完全不浪費。"],["張委員啓楷：再看下一張，剛才總經理說地震造成內傷嘛！所以一直在停電、跳電，對不對？看一下，之前我請教過你，哪一種電最便宜，那時候是說核電。現在我們來問另外一個問題，你現在預防地震受的影響，哪一種電最耐震？你看這個圖，當花蓮發生大地震的時候，那天的7點50分，所有的供電全部都是往下降的對不對？是不是？燃煤、汽電共生、民營電廠，全部都往下掉，有一個是平的，什麼地方？最穩定的、最耐震的是哪一個？"],["王總經理耀庭：跟委員報告，核三是在屏東，是最靠近南邊，這次內傷很多的包括像剛剛講3部機組75萬都在南投、臺中，是靠震央比較近。"],["張委員啓楷：對啦！其實核能也是這樣，你在設計的時候最注意安全嘛！也是最穩定的嘛！我們再看下一張好不好？看一下，發生311地震的日本，這幾天已經決定了，他們要重新啟動全球最大的核電廠。今天本席給部長跟總經理看這個東西不是說你一定要做什麼改變，可是你要想一想，你最近確實是在缺電，隨時可能在大限電的危機裡面對不對？重新思考一下好不好？重新思考一下，至少今年的7月，你的核三廠的一號機，100度裡面有3.5度是從那邊來的，你如果缺了這個電，你隨時可能會大限電或大停電，好不好？","另外回過頭來，我剩一點時間，請教部長一下，你已經跟新任的部長有通過電話嗎？"],["王部長美花：有。"],["張委員啓楷：我們願意祝福啦！願意祝福，就跟祝福你一樣，他至少現在碰到兩個很嚴重的問題，一個是觸犯證交法的問題；第二個，商業會計法的問題，老實講他目前還沒有上任之前，這個是屬於個人公司治理的問題，可是政治人物很重要的是什麼？政治誠信，所以等他上任之後，他當初觸犯了證交法、觸犯了商業會計法，都會重新被檢視。另外再看下一張，彭博社這個新聞我看你非常注意對不對？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["張委員啓楷：彭博社代表的是什麼？它的總社在美國的紐約，它是全世界最大的財經資訊提供的地方，又是在美國，所以它的示警是不是也代表美國一部分的意見？它示警的是什麼？你為什麼去幫中國大陸的華為晶圓廠做污水處理，現在好像變成雲淡風輕，大家都說污水處理廠、廢水處理廠是小事，部長，你對晶圓廠的廢水處理廠應該很瞭解對不對？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["張委員啓楷：台積電曾經講過，他們的廢水處理要有38種分流，那是很精密的高科技喔！不是一般民生的污水處理喔！第二個，他跟大陸的關係這麼密切，新任的部長上台之後，能夠確保我們有些商業機密，特別跟晶圓、跟晶片有關的會不會外洩？另外是美國的關係，我剛才特別提到，是彭博社來示警，那我要問你，你昨天講說，是不是違反美國的法規還要進一步去諮詢廠商還有瞭解他的態度，你為什麼這樣講？"],["王部長美花：昨天……"],["張委員啓楷：你在煩惱什麼嗎？除了有沒有違反我們自己的法規之外，今天本席很重要再提醒一個點，不要把他去處理華為晶圓廠的污水處理當成一般的民生用水、民生污水，它是很高科技的，這是一個點。第二個，你講到美國的法規嘛！對不對？美國那邊有些擔心嗎？"],["王部長美花：應該精準的是這樣講，就是這一個報導之後，經濟部也有啟動相關的瞭解跟調查，調查結果確實沒有違反我們任何的法規，包括他還有別的廠商的部分，或者做廢水，或者做相關的廠務處理的部分，所以也有請各相關部會表示意見，目前大家最後的結論就是這個沒有違反任何法規。至於美國的部分，因為美國是外國直接產品的原則，相關的規定我們也仔細地檢視了以後，這個跟我們這幾個案子的情形，確實跟美國的規範也沒有關係，所以這一些案子確定是沒有違反相關的規定。"],["張委員啓楷：沒有啦！部長，一般美、中、臺關係本來就是敏感的，現在很多人檢討的是如果新任要接你位置的經濟部長上來以後，他跟中國大陸的關係那麼密切，特別這次是跟華為，然後晶片本身也是敏感的。"],["王部長美花：第一個、我想要講的是臺灣企業界跟中國這邊有關係，我覺得只要是正常的關係，我們應該大家用這樣的來看待，因為臺灣跟中國的貿易關係畢竟還是有百分之三、四十。第二個、他當經濟部長要做好相關的保密規定，或者跟原來的企業有非常好的切割，我想新的經濟部長應該都會做好這些事情。"],["張委員啓楷：對，你提醒了，他在光電跟那邊有那麼多的投資，利益迴避也是個大的問題。"],["王部長美花：這個我們都會……"],["張委員啓楷：你跟他聯絡，所以這段時間沒有錯，確實很多地方你要提醒他，他現在是公司治理的問題而已，以後就不是了，你上台以後包括政治誠信的問題，包括以前凡走過必留下痕跡，每一樣都是要被檢視的，上台才是檢視的開始，你要提醒他。"],["王部長美花：我們都……"],["張委員啓楷：第二個，包括美國的態度可能要更進一步去瞭解，好不好？"],["王部長美花：有。"],["張委員啓楷：另外我最後還是要拉回來，你知道民眾最關心的還是電的問題，我剛剛已經跟你說了，一個早上，桃園有3個地方又跳電跟停電了，不要再發生好不好？"],["王部長美花：這個我們會做好服務。"],["張委員啓楷：一定，現在民眾最關心的真的是用電問題，不要再發生了，至少在你下台之前，好不好？"],["王部長美花：是，我們會努力。"],["張委員啓楷：好，部長，謝謝。"],["主席：也不是在他下台之前，應該是離職之前，謝謝。","好，我們接下來請鄭正鈐委員，請做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":412,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-8","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","張嘉郡","賴瑞隆","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","呂玉玲","鄭天財Sra 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會超過一萬副喔"},{"start":136.696,"end":148.751,"text":"是,我這樣子,這個是配電的問題啦,就是線路,因為我們線路總共長度大概30幾萬公里啦,那其中某些地方偶爾會有一些狀況發生,斷線的問題。"},{"start":153.134,"end":155.236,"text":"大家會擔心嗎?對不對?10天這樣,今天早上就這樣我想這個可能還是跟大家說明相關的配電系統那因為纜線很長然後設備非常多那今天早上確實也有相關的雷雨那這個相關的氣候也確實會讓這樣的一個機組的故障的部分那這個故障"},{"start":177.717,"end":187.349,"text":"這個故障有一些其實台電很快就可以把它修復那有一些如果要更換會花多一點點時間來修復那台電其實都用最快的時間來做這個維修的動作你也知道台灣很辛苦也會將心比心你如果是停電的"},{"start":195.888,"end":196.108,"text":"發言委員：張啓楷"},{"start":225.626,"end":246.562,"text":"河山場1號機7月就要除以了對不對河山場的1號機1號機7月是百分之百分之3.5的這個用電量告示人又變少了對不對第三個就是剛才總會講的你現在還內傷現在餘震跟地震還是還是頻傳的啊所以這個都是現在很嚴重的這個危機所以拜託一個最少一個"},{"start":247.981,"end":248.121,"text":"發言委員：張啓楷"},{"start":271.687,"end":297.514,"text":"你如果張啓楷出來賣啊,他說這樣就騰騰騰騰,那麼多的工廠,那麼多的公司,這整個產業發展會受很大影響,民眾受到影響更大,是來,不然我給你看一下更嚴重的,現在我們缺電缺到什麼程度?現在都要挖東牆補西牆,現在可能不是只有缺電的問題啊,現在可能都還要限水,你看一下,石門水庫現在水量多少?"},{"start":299.938,"end":300.458,"text":"24.5對不對?"},{"start":300.458,"end":310.744,"text":"深溫水庫剩下34.5我去統計17個月前台已經有8座的水庫蓄水量是低於3成了結果現在要檢討一下什麼?"},{"start":310.744,"end":314.766,"text":"第一不是要欠水嗎?這已經接近百年枯水期對不對?"},{"start":314.766,"end":320.109,"text":"沒有沒有跟百年枯水期差很多有接近啦兩成多了嘛對不對?"},{"start":320.109,"end":323.371,"text":"沒有沒有差很多兩成多啦那現在今天有一個最新的新聞"},{"start":324.977,"end":335.143,"text":"你現在你看看一下看一下你的水位那麼低24.5結果你的發電水力發電的主要你看石門水庫已經降到24.5了結果你水力發電用了多少"},{"start":336.823,"end":365.092,"text":"90.44元升溫水庫用了多少98.8元今天甚至更新的消息台電說要叫升溫水庫叫水利署這邊要發電現在水已經在蓋嘛本來就要節省水了對不對結果你現在叫它水利發電水就流失了嘛這個完全不會犧牲水因為它是上游把電發下來下游都存著然後這個存著的水民生要多少、農業要多少再來用"},{"start":366.112,"end":367.975,"text":"今天最新的消息不是水利署都出來講了"},{"start":381.494,"end":407.107,"text":"不會,它只是發電放水的時間去搭配相關的尖峰但是呢這個放了水一定是都下面有一個下池那這個池呢再來看什麼時候用水完全不會浪費我們再來看下一張完全不浪費再看下一張,剛才總委說地震造成內傷嘛所以你在停電、跳電對不對看一下之前我請教過你哪一種電"},{"start":408.792,"end":437.075,"text":"最便宜那種光核電現在我們要問另外一個問題你現在疫防地震受的影響哪一種電最耐震你看這個圖當花蓮發生大地震的時候那間的氣墊50分所有的供電全部都是往下降的對不對是不是燃煤、氣電工生、民營電廠全部都往下掉有一個是平的什麼地方最穩定的、最耐震的是哪一個"},{"start":438.888,"end":458.724,"text":"跟委員報告河山市在屏東是最靠近南邊這次內商很多的包括像剛剛講那個三部基礎75萬都在南投、台中就是靠近鎮央比較近其實河能也是現在你在設計的時候最注意安全嘛也是最穩定的嘛我們再看一個下一張好不好來,看這個發生311地震的日本"},{"start":459.565,"end":480.833,"text":"這幾天已經多天了喔他們要重新啟動全球最大的核電廠今天本席給部長跟眾議員看這些東西不是說你一定要改變什麼做最大的改變可是你要想一想你最近確實是在缺電隨時可能大限電的這個危機裡面對不對重新思考一下好不好重新思考一下至少今年要七月"},{"start":481.593,"end":504.807,"text":"你的河山場的一號機,100度裡面有3.5度是從那邊來的。你如果缺了這個電,你隨時可能會大限電或大停電,好不好?另外回過頭來,我請教博定一下,你已經跟新任的這個部長有通過電話嗎?我們願意祝福啦,願意祝福,祝福你一樣,他至少現在碰到兩個很嚴重的問題。"},{"start":506.665,"end":531.963,"text":"兩個嚴重的問題一個是觸犯政交法的這個問題第二個商業會計法這個問題這個老蔣他目前還沒有上任之前這個是屬於個人公司治理的問題可是政治人物很重要的是什麼政治誠信所以等他上任完之後他當初觸犯了這個政交法觸犯了商業會計法這個重新都會被檢視另外再看下一張"},{"start":533.695,"end":558.29,"text":"彭博社這個新聞我看你非常的注意對不對彭博社代表是什麼他的總社在美國的紐約他是全世界最大的財經資訊的提供的地方又是在美國所以他示警是不是代表美國一部分的這個意見他示警的是什麼你為什麼去幫中國大陸的華為精研廠的污水處理現在好像變成銀彈風機打動說污水處理廠廢水處理廠是小事我聽"},{"start":563.991,"end":567.614,"text":"你對晶圓廠的沸水處理廠應該很了解,對不對?"},{"start":567.614,"end":588.032,"text":"是。台積電曾經講過,他們的沸水處理要有38種分流,那是很精密的高科技喔!不是一般的民生的污水處理喔!第二個,它跟大陸的關係這麼密切,新任的部長上台之後,能夠確保我們的商業機密,特別跟晶圓、跟晶片有關的,會不會外洩?"},{"start":589.639,"end":617.144,"text":"另外是美國的關係我剛特別提是彭博社來示警那我要問你你昨天講了說是不是違反美國的法規還要進一步去諮詢廠商還有了解他的態度你為什麼這樣講昨天你有在煩惱什麼嗎除了有沒有違反自己的法規之外齊凱今天本席很重要再提醒一個點不要把他去處理華為的這個晶圓廠那個污水處理當成一般的民生用水民生污水"},{"start":618.137,"end":622.581,"text":"他是很高科技的這是一個點第二個你講到美國的法規對不對美國那邊有些擔心嗎應該精準的是這樣講就是說這一個報導之後呢那經濟部也有啟動相關的瞭解跟調查那這個調查結果那確實沒有違反我們任何的法規那這個包括他還有別的廠商的部分呢"},{"start":641.44,"end":645.942,"text":"那或者做這個廢水或者說這個相關的這個廠物的處理的部分那所以也有請各相關的部會表示意見那目前就是大家都最後的結論就是這個沒有違反任何法規那至於美國的部分因為美國是這個外國直接產品的這個原則那這個相關的規定我們也仔細的檢視了以後"},{"start":667.99,"end":681.721,"text":"那這個跟我們這幾個案子的情形確實跟美國的規範也沒有關係所以這一些的案子確定是沒有違反相關的規定一般美中台關係本來就是敏感的那現在很多人檢討是說"},{"start":683.735,"end":694.858,"text":"如果新的這個新的這個要接你位子的經濟部長上來以後他跟中國大陸關係那麼密切特別這一次是跟華為然後晶片本身也是敏感的第一個我想要講的就是說臺灣這個企業界跟中國這邊有關係我覺得只要是正常的關係那這個我們應該大用這樣的來看待因為臺灣跟中國的貿易關係畢竟還是有30、40%那第二個就是說"},{"start":711.143,"end":713.925,"text":"他當經濟部長要做好相關的保密的規定或者跟原來的企業有非常好的切割我想新的經濟部長應該都會做好這些事情他在光電跟那邊有那麼多的投資利益迴避也是個大的問題"},{"start":729.192,"end":753.849,"text":"你跟他聯絡所以這段時間沒有錯確實很多地方你要提醒他他現在是公司治理的問題而已以後就不是囉你上台以後包括政治誠信的問題包括以前反走過必留下痕跡每一樣都是要被檢視的上台才是檢視的開始你要提醒他第二個包括美國這個態度可能要進一步更進一步去了解好不好那另外我最後還是要拉回來雖然民眾同關現在是電的問題我剛才已經跟你講了"},{"start":755.45,"end":770.599,"text":"一個早上通路上的地方又跳電跟停電了不要再發生這個我們會做好服務是一定現在民眾最關心的就是真的是用電的這個問題不要再發生了至少在你下台之前好不好是我們會努力是好謝謝也不是在他下台之前應該是離此事件對謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}