{"error":false,"id":["151400"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":151400,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151400","日期":"2024-04-18","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-23-7","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":7,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[23],"委員會代碼:str":["交通委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-04-18T10:06:20+08:00","結束時間":"2024-04-18T10:18:25+08:00","影片長度":"00:12:05","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/566e821c95e2b4457f1654fde96f5ab251d3d820e134d652c5dab72e655c1c94c2d5238c042452c75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡其昌","委員發言時間":"10:06:20 - 10:18:25","會議時間":"2024-04-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查113年度中央政府總預算關於交通部主管預算凍結案計31案。\n二、審查行政院函請審議「道路交通管理處罰條例第七條之一、第六十三條及第六十三條之二條文修正草案」案。\n【僅進行詢答】\n【4月15日、17日及18日三天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":218,"blocks":[["蔡委員其昌：（10時6分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：請王部長。"],["王部長國材：蔡委員好。"],["蔡委員其昌：部長早。部長，首先第一個題目我想來討論一下海線鐵路雙軌化，今年年初已經核定了嘛！"],["王部長國材：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：本席想利用質詢的機會再一次就教交通部，接下來的程序是會進入綜規跟細部設計，這個時程的預計狀況大概是如何？"],["王部長國材：我先簡單講一下，就是海線雙軌核定要跟現在的海線高架化做一個整合，所以他們大概把這個部分做一個討論，後續海線過了以後就是做綜合規劃，時程部分我請局長來跟你報告。"],["楊局長正君：跟委員報告，一般鐵路的綜規作業大概需要15到18個月左右，目前因為剛核定，我們正在做招標的準備作業，所以確切的期程一旦確定會跟委員報告。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，我想部長、局長都很清楚，本席長期對於海線雙軌化其實非常地關注，而且過去8年我們不知道開過多少次會議，這個事情的重要，不是只有本席選區的問題，海線的雙軌化是讓整個臺鐵的運量，過去山線都是爆滿的，火車非常地壅塞，但是海線卻一車難求，所以長期以來我們一直很希望海線的火車能夠增加，但礙於很多段的單軌，所以海線的鐵路班次一直沒有辦法增加，所以歸根究柢、釜底抽薪，一定要快速地完成海線鐵路的雙軌化。"],["王部長國材：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：在這麼多年來的爭取、努力，你們也完成了可行性評估，本席也是按照程序，不會提特別條例去要求你們多久之內要做好，沒有，本席只是不斷地督促、要求，在做為一位立法委員的權力底下去要求你們要儘速、要趕快，你們不快，本席就罵；你們快，我就給你們鼓勵。所以現在總算可行性評估完成，而且馬上要進入綜規，但我們又卡到了高架化的問題，也就是本席過去在林部長擔任林市長的時代，我們所提的海線鐵路雙軌高架是一個案子，後來在幾年前，本席覺得雙軌化跟高架化如果在同一個案子的情況底下，因為高架化依照規定涉及地方政府要部分負擔，地方政府如果不願意出這個錢，那高架化就會一直卡住，所以我們把它切開來，雙軌歸雙軌、雙軌高架歸雙軌高架，也因為如此，我們才得以在這個時間點完成雙軌化的評估。","但現在又面臨到捷運藍線會穿過臺鐵，所以勢必有一段可能會涉及到高架，但是只要涉及到高架，又要地方政府出錢，因此本席的結論是，如果臺中市政府這麼多年來還是不願意出錢，那本席站在海線鄉親的立場，我會要求說雙軌化一定不能被耽擱啦！就是雙軌化不能因為一直等待沒有效率的地方政府，或者遲不出錢的地方政府、不重視海線雙軌高架的地方政府，結果讓我們的雙軌化受到耽擱，這件事情是本席不能夠接受的。所以你們一定要有一個時間跟地方政府做最有效率的溝通，要做不要做一句話，如果不做，我們雙軌不能停，不能行政院通過了雙軌，就為了等地方政府而一拖再拖，這個是鄉親不能夠接受的。如果地方政府堅持不願意出這個錢，我們的雙軌化不能被耽擱、被影響，這樣有沒有問題？"],["王部長國材：我們過去的雙軌的確被臺中海線的高架還有大慶─烏日耽擱一段時間，現在我們覺得沒辦法等，所以直接核定雙軌，原來它是用山手線，現在會分大慶─烏日，還有包括海線，另外就是……"],["蔡委員其昌：彩虹線，切三個段，一案變三案。"],["王部長國材：我們現在看起來，大慶─烏日跟海線應該都沒有問題，但是的確臺中市政府提到要中央全額負擔，因為包括高雄、包括北部，幾乎都按照現在的遊戲規則在走，所以我們是期待趕快確定，確定以後，剛才談到不管跟藍線的介面，或是跟雙軌的介面就可以趕快建立起來。"],["蔡委員其昌：部長，目前如果中央全額負擔，大概全臺灣有多少縣市等著中央全額負擔的高架化？"],["王部長國材：這個很多。"],["蔡委員其昌：很多，你有沒有算過這個預算大概幾兆或者幾千億？"],["王部長國材：現在各個地方非常多，有的是高架，有的是地下，比如說桃園，它也要負擔很多錢，嘉義現在在做也要付錢。"],["蔡委員其昌：那個叫立體化。"],["王部長國材：對，都是立體化，包括嘉義現在在施工，那每個都回到不要出錢。"],["蔡委員其昌：所以這個沒有政黨考量嘛！"],["王部長國材：對，沒有，就一致。"],["蔡委員其昌：嘉義是嘉義縣還是嘉義市？"],["王部長國材：兩個都有，嘉義市在施工，嘉義縣在……"],["蔡委員其昌：都有嘛！所以不會因為嘉義縣是民進黨執政，你就同意嘛！"],["王部長國材：不會。那高雄要哭……"],["蔡委員其昌：所以這個一定要對外說明清楚，就是因為預算必須要合理化，對於每一個縣市政府要立體化，就是高架或地下，它要進行專業、可行，甚至未來營運效率的評估，對不對？"],["王部長國材：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：所以我們希望中央、地方分別來負擔嘛！"],["王部長國材：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：這個也是馬總統時代通過的辦法嘛！"],["王部長國材：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：我想這個要對外說明清楚，所以本席再一次強調，海線的鐵路雙軌化不能因為地方政府在高架化的問題上不出錢，而導致雙軌化受到延誤，這個我想我再一次強調。這個沒有問題啦？"],["王部長國材：好，我們現在都分開個別計畫在走。"],["蔡委員其昌：我也贊成雙軌高架，我不是反對，我很贊成，但是不可以因為一個地方政府遲不出錢，奮死抵抗，我們的雙軌化就因為這樣被耽擱，這個不行。"],["王部長國材：瞭解。"],["蔡委員其昌：第二個問題，昨天我有提到觀光的問題，部長，疫情前我們Inbound的高峰是1,000萬對不對？"],["王部長國材：接近1,200萬。"],["蔡委員其昌：不好意思，超過1,000萬，是1,200萬嘛！"],["王部長國材：1,187萬。"],["蔡委員其昌：那去年是多少？"],["王部長國材：648萬。"],["蔡委員其昌：那今年預估多少？"],["王部長國材：現在就以1,000萬為目標。"],["蔡委員其昌：1到4月覺得狀況好不好？"],["周署長永暉：我們第一季是195萬，將近200萬。"],["蔡委員其昌：比去年成長多少？"],["周署長永暉：相對去年的話，大概已經恢復到七成了。"],["蔡委員其昌：比去年的第一季成長？"],["周署長永暉：沒錯。"],["蔡委員其昌：因為你的目標要1,000萬，所以你要按季達標。"],["王部長國材：第一季如果200萬，乘以四就800萬，我們覺得這是往上升的，所以我們的目標就是1,000萬。"],["蔡委員其昌：我覺得你要按季去追蹤，不然等到最後12月到了，才發現還差很遠，那時候你已經沒有方法了，但按季檢討，你就可以發現這個趨勢對不對，我們還可以用什麼方法，因為今年到現在才4月，換言之，你還有好幾個月可以想辦法。"],["周署長永暉：我們是跟2019年比。"],["蔡委員其昌：Outbound的話我們今年成長多少？大家都在講現在旅遊型態改變了，觀光型態改變了，大家都愛出國，大家甚至批評說比較窮的人出國，臺灣比較貴，所以有錢留在臺灣，沒錢的人出國。"],["周署長永暉：2019年是1,700萬。"],["蔡委員其昌：2019年是1,700萬出國，那去年呢？"],["周署長永暉：去年是1,100萬。"],["蔡委員其昌：數字對不對？"],["周署長永暉：我們都按照移民署的資料。"],["蔡委員其昌：Outbound的數字是不是很明顯的上升？還是只是大家感覺機場人很多，所以大家就這樣說？"],["周署長永暉：相對去年是成長。"],["蔡委員其昌：第一季也很明顯的成長，對不對？"],["周署長永暉：對。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，所以旅遊型態真的在改變。我今天就先姑且不論這幾年以來長期的問題，像缺工等等的問題，部長或署長有沒有想過，今年用什麼方式讓旅客可以增加？時間到了是嗎？這個問題回答完就好。"],["周署長永暉：我們提供書面資料，因為我們現在是要五路齊發，我們確實也需要增加點、增加推廣會、增加露出，包含戶外的、室內的，還有社群。"],["蔡委員其昌：我提供一個啦！我覺得還是要有亮點，我隨便舉一個例子，大巨蛋完工了，大巨蛋是一個為棒球或者表演成立的建築物，它一開始的出發點絕對不是為了臺灣的觀光，但是因為這個建築物的完成，你看我們職棒的統計數據就可以發現，很多人來大巨蛋看球，除了球迷之外，還有第二種人是來觀光的，他把大巨蛋視為觀光景點，他來體驗一下，哎呦！坐在一個室內棒球場看棒球，是他這一輩子沒有過的體驗，所以他的觀光概念大過於看球賽的輸贏。這個叫什麼？這個就是我講的觀光要從這裡做起。杜董事長也有來，你看，臺鐵公司化之後，臺鐵開始跟民間合作，譬如說跟雄獅旅遊去做鳴日號列車，鳴日號到今天為止都還一票難求，對不對？"],["王部長國材：對。"],["蔡委員其昌：一票難求為什麼不複製？我的意思是，交通部底下，不要講到行政院、不要講政府，光交通部底下，其實有很多的商機都在我們自己部裡面的管轄範圍，觀光不可以靠觀光署一個人，必須要統合。"],["王部長國材：瞭解。"],["蔡委員其昌：觀光資源應該是我抓到了重點，然後我把它放大，觀光如果是每年編列預算要去蓋什麼，那怎麼可能蓋的了呢？你一個都蓋不了啦！但是你必須要抓到亮點，再透過行銷把它放大，變成它的效益會更高。本席認為這個才是重點，對不對？"],["王部長國材：瞭解。"],["蔡委員其昌：所以像鐵路，應該請杜董事長趕快看臺鐵公司還有什麼資產可以跟觀光做連結，臺鐵本身的目的是交通、是運輸，可是現在不能這樣來思考這個問題了，好不好？"],["王部長國材：好。"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["蔡委員其昌：不好意思，主席，耽誤了很多時間，謝謝。"],["王部長國材：謝謝蔡委員。"],["主席：謝謝蔡委員發言完畢，蔡委員也是職棒聯盟的會長，也來這邊做置入的行銷。","現在請何欣純委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":398,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-7","speakers":["李昆澤","徐富癸","林俊憲","廖先翔","蔡其昌","何欣純","魯明哲","黃健豪","陳素月","許智傑","牛煦庭","邱若華","謝衣鳯","林月琴","林國成","洪孟楷","洪申翰","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","游顥","陳俊宇"],"page_start":343,"meetingDate":["2024-04-18"],"gazette_id":"1133001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133001_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查113年度中央政府總預算關於交通部主管預算凍結案計 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