{"error":false,"id":["151407"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":151407,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151407","日期":"2024-04-18","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-19-8","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":8,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[19],"委員會代碼:str":["經濟委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-04-18T10:41:36+08:00","結束時間":"2024-04-18T10:55:15+08:00","影片長度":"00:13:39","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/566e821c95e2b445f4a7f3f5a9920f5304d5d2f84b0f7606c5dab72e655c1c943d75864859a57f935ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"10:41:36 - 10:55:15","會議時間":"2024-04-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於經濟部主管：經濟作業基金、水資源作業基金、經濟特別收入基金、核能發電後端營運基金。(詢答)）","gazette":{"lineno":756,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（10時41分）謝謝主席，本席想邀請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["王部長美花：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，您辛苦了。部長一直是被公認最難坐穩的位置，部長你已經創下了歷史紀錄，也就是在整個體系當中，經濟首長的紀錄當中，你是小英政府任職最久的經濟部長，部長認為你在任內最滿意的政策是什麼？你有沒有覺得有什麼遺珠之憾還沒做到的？"],["王部長美花：我擔任的期間很長，我非常珍惜跟同仁一起努力打拼，然後讓臺灣的經濟、讓臺灣的各項發展都往正面地走，我有非常多不是只有單一滿意的等等，但是委員也非常清楚，經濟部還有非常多優先的業務要去推動，所以不敢講說哪一個沒有做，因為還要持續精進的事情非常多。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：還要做的還很多。"],["王部長美花：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那有沒有你認為、你覺得你最有榮耀的是什麼事？你推動的。"],["王部長美花：我想我最榮耀其實是跟同仁的共事，大家形成一個非常好的team，然後用非常快速的時間，不管是來解決問題……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你所說的說明是跟同仁的互動，在你整個業務的推廣方面、政策，你認為哪一項是你覺得最成功、最有榮耀的？"],["王部長美花：就是因為有這樣跟同仁的合作，包括克服了百年大旱，包括雖然我們電力有出了一些問題，但是因為有這樣的問題、有這樣的挑戰，我們其實是做了更好的安排，不管是在各式各樣的電力供給跟韌性的部分，包括臺灣的整個經濟發展，讓全世界看到臺灣的重要性，臺灣也在成長……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你提出了抗百年大旱，這個的確是一個很大的挑戰，所以一開頭我說這是最難坐穩的位置，你能夠坐了這四年多也不簡單，所以本席要請問，對於預計新接任的準經濟部長，你的看法呢？"],["王部長美花：我們非常非常感佩企業界願意來做相關內閣的閣員，對國家的經濟大政方針繼續再往前走，畢竟從業界來有他的高度跟他的視野。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你要不要給他什麼建議？"],["王部長美花：建議的部分，我想大家對臺灣的整個經濟發展都很有期待。再者就是經濟的業務又非常地繁雜，所以這一些的繁雜事情，我們也會儘量去做好交接的工作。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你還是在敘述情緒的話語，所以本席跟你分享，因為據聞他是最懂半導體產業的部長，如果他接了，應該是如此。但是本席希望你告訴他，我國的中小企業，本席一直一直一直跟你討論這一項，我國的中小企業將近有160萬家，占所有企業99%，勞動人口占了920萬人，所以在這樣的情況之下，它也占了我們就業人口即將8成，所以中小企業一直是臺灣的磐石，它也為了臺灣創造了四小龍光榮的一個龍頭，同時它也是奠定我們臺灣民生安定最重要的骨幹，同時它也充滿了活力、彈性，它也靈活地創新，你同意這樣的論點嗎？"],["王部長美花：我完全同意。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以它也製造了很多我們的隱形冠軍，在全世界發揚光大，對不對？"],["王部長美花：是的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是，所以你要不要告訴他，不只半導體，我們的中小企業要好好地照顧，對不對？"],["王部長美花：一定。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：要告訴他喔！"],["王部長美花：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你這個學姐要告訴他。"],["王部長美花：一定。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：接下來我也請台電總經理一起上來，限電危機，接著桃園的萬戶停電，電力的政策要不要檢討？請問部長。"],["王部長美花：委員也知道……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：要不要檢討？"],["王部長美花：最近這樣的情形確實是因為……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不要敘述內容，大家都知道，很辛苦。"],["王部長美花：確實是因為地震造成的部分……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：要不要檢討？"],["王部長美花：相關我們電力的供應等等，我們一定都會審慎來因應。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：要好好檢討。OK，接下來我要說，16號本席辦公室中午的時間向台電索取資料，說15號的狀態到底是怎麼回事，從中午的時間到當天晚上10點半才獲得回復，這樣子的效率可以嗎？要不要檢討？"],["王部長美花：謝謝委員。我想台電的同仁因為15號、16號都在緊急處理相關的電力問題，時間如果……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，不要再情緒性地發言，我們針對問題。"],["王部長美花：沒有，時間如果有慢了一點……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：大家要一起努力，台電的總經理在這裡，這也是我最敬佩的領導、領袖，我要告訴你，15號發生事情，16號中午我們請問，到16號晚上10點半才獲得回應，為什麼會如此？來，接下來，本席要請教，台電你是否在15號有備妥限電、停電的計畫？因為你只告訴我們，部長你聽喔！他告訴我們說他在會議中沒討論，所以等於是沒有正面的回復，會議中沒討論。接下來本席要請問，沒關係，你不回答也沒關係，16號不回答也沒關係，本席說要在這邊提問，而真正的答案，總經理，到底15號你們有沒有備妥、有沒有通知、有沒有討論到要限電跟停電的報告？因為據媒體所說，你們已經通知台電各區處喔！通知要輪停準備，有沒有這回事？請說明。"],["王總經理耀庭：跟委員報告，我們通常在每一天的提前12小時或24小時會預估接下來的備轉容量率，那麼到了中午的時候，到了15號中午的時候，我們的備轉容量率還是超過6%以上，以這麼大的備轉容量率，其實我們不可能在那個時候要限電……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以你們是會議中，你15號整天的會議沒有討論嗎？"],["王總經理耀庭：沒有討論。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，我們要釐清楚，沒有討論？"],["王總經理耀庭：都沒有討論。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那事情更嚴重……"],["王總經理耀庭：我跟委員報告……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：已經這麼嚴重了，你們還沒討論？"],["王總經理耀庭：跟委員報告，真正發生有兩部大的事故機組是在下午的5點51分。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對啊！"],["王總經理耀庭：那已經是後面在那個時候發生110萬的機組跳脫，然後……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：總經理你是專業，所以我請你上來，15日晚上出現的台電四部機跳機，這是15日，全臺備轉容量首度降到3%以下，嚇到！我在臺中，我很緊張我們的中火要怎麼樣支應？好，接下來16號就發生了桃園的這樣的現象，所以距離我們供電穩定是不是應該還有很大的空間？"],["王總經理耀庭：我們這樣看，在4月15號中午的時候至少還有6%，差不多9%，為什麼？因為我們跳了6%……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席已經在跟你講到15號晚上如何了啦！"],["王總經理耀庭：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不要再去逃脫那些問題。來，接下來，15日台電就已經啟動了需量競價，緊急機組的緊急調度機制，包括你請求台積電用電大戶的發電，也啟動了核二、核三廠，以及臺中氣渦輪柴油發電都發電了，還有水力發電，來度過這一次的難關，是不是如此？"],["王總經理耀庭：那些機組……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是不是如此？"],["王總經理耀庭：有那些事實……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：有那些事實嘛！"],["王總經理耀庭：但是那些都是我備轉容量的一部分。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，對，你要給社會大眾知道，當你發生問題的時候，你有什麼辦法嘛！不用怕，你要清楚告訴民眾，不然人家問你沒講嘛，對不對？你不講我們都不會知道，所以這一些剛剛本席所說的，都是你在籌電的項目嘛，都已經執行了，對不對？"],["王總經理耀庭：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對嘛！你既然有努力做，為什麼不讓社會大眾瞭解知道你們的辛苦呢？接續本席要請教，這一次要用電大戶來支援發電的狀況，你這一次的成本又花了多少？"],["王總經理耀庭：有的大概8塊錢，有的比較貴的是10塊錢1度電。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：有12塊的嗎？因為你們還有一個彈性兩成啊！"],["王總經理耀庭：彈性兩成那個就12塊。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：有沒有？"],["王總經理耀庭：那是臨時調它起來。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：有沒有？"],["王總經理耀庭：有，有，有。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這一次有用到12塊嘛，對不對？"],["王總經理耀庭：對，這都有簽約的，就跟它簽約，它願意……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你不用怕，我們要瞭解事實，所以你有用到12塊的，對不對？"],["王總經理耀庭：是的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你告訴部長，光這一次你的成本還要花多少？"],["王總經理耀庭：我們還沒有算，我們等算出來再來回報。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，本席第一個就提問，我們有討論的空間，台電很辛苦，全力支持台電，但是你們要怎麼樣供電穩定必須要去檢討。你不告訴我們方法，我們要看你的答案，這一次你度過難關買到12塊，又花了多少成本？真的，這一次因為地震120萬瓩的機組沒有修復，大潭8號機還有明潭4、5、6號機陸續的跳電，影響到185萬瓩的供電，你只要少了任何剛剛本席所說的，你就瀕臨限電的警戒線，對不對？王總經理。"],["王總經理耀庭：現在是因為那些機組很快就修復回來，就是很特殊同時發生這麼多部，都是因為地震之後……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：告訴你本席憂心，夏季要到了，夏季的用電高峰來臨，緊急調度的機制常常要登場，會經常要登場，你要未雨綢繆，怎麼辦？"],["王總經理耀庭：跟委員報告，我們的機組都是在利用非夏天的時候做維修，所以這些機組在6月之前會陸續歸隊……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：把你認為要穩定供電的方案，請提供詳細書面資料給本席，好不好？"],["王總經理耀庭：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席也再次強調，我們需要瞭解內容才能夠告訴民眾，讓民眾安心，好不好？"],["王總經理耀庭：好，是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：王總經理請回。我最後一個議題，部長，推廣貿易基金的設立宗旨，是以提升我們對外出口競爭力跟國際貿易的地位為願景，但是我臺中很重要的台灣工具機暨零組件工業同業公會，號稱TMBA，也是你們非常關心的。我們公布了工具機112年9月份的出口，比前期少了11.4%，出口的機種跟出口的市場，我有跟你分清楚，機種少了12.9%；市場少了13.3%。所以在113年當中，你的貿易推廣工作計畫裡頭，智慧機械海外推廣的經費一樣是1億。我每一次都給你全力的支持，但是你推廣不利，你告訴我怎麼樣協助我們產業好不好？我們全力的支持預算，你一樣照這樣編，可是出口的市場一直在下降，機種出口率也下降，怎麼辦？你怎麼樣協助我們產業？沒錢就不要說，但有錢你還沒辦法推動，這怎麼辦？請做說明。"],["王部長美花：跟委員報告，事實上我們非常關心工具機的出口，所以在今年度……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：怎麼辦？"],["王部長美花：也有相關的經費，讓他們去新的市場，還有讓他們異業結合一起去推廣，這個都有跟相關的工具機公會有密切的討論。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，你這麼回答還有一點神經、有觸動，請你告訴我，你每一年固定編列一樣的數字，成效怎麼樣？112年是成效不彰，我告訴你，市場下降了13.3%；機種下降了12.9%，告訴我未來怎麼推動，請提供詳細書面資料給本席好嗎？"],["王部長美花：可以，我們再給委員。"],["主席：謝謝，接下來我們請謝衣鳯委員，因為我們沒有休息，所以如果行政部門有需要上廁所請自行離開，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":412,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-8","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","張嘉郡","賴瑞隆","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","呂玉玲","鄭天財Sra 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據聞如果他接了應該是如此但是本席希望你告訴他我國的中小企業本席一直一直一直跟你討論這一項我國的中小企業將近有160萬家占所有企業99%人口勞動人口占了920萬人所以在這樣的情況之下他也占了我們就業人口即將八成"},{"start":235.251,"end":240.078,"text":"所以中藻企業一直是臺灣的磐石他也為了臺灣呢創造了四小龍的一個光榮的一個龍頭同時他也是定定的我們臺灣民生安定最重要的骨幹"},{"start":251.135,"end":280.017,"text":"同時他也充滿了活力彈性他也靈活的創新你同意這樣的論點嗎我完全同意完全同意所以他也製造了很多我們的隱形冠軍在全世界發揚光大對不對是的是所以你要不要告訴他不只半導體我們的中小企業要好好的照顧對不對一定要告訴他喔你這個學姊要告訴他接下來我也請台電總經理一起上來"},{"start":281.818,"end":287.621,"text":"限電為期接著桃園的萬戶停電電力的偵測要不要檢討請問部長我"},{"start":291.4,"end":292.381,"text":"16號本席辦公室中午的時間向台電要索取資料"},{"start":315.664,"end":328.511,"text":"說15號的狀態到底是怎麼回事當天晚上從中午的時間到當天晚上10點半才獲得回顧這樣子的效率可以嗎要不要檢討"},{"start":330.526,"end":340.033,"text":"謝謝委員我想臺電的同仁因為15號16號都在緊急處理相關的這個電力的問題部長不要再情緒性的發言我們針對問題大家一起要努力臺電的總經理在這裡這也是我最敬佩的這個領袖那我要告訴你"},{"start":353.201,"end":375.532,"text":"15號發生事情16號中午我們請問到16號的晚上10點半才獲得回應為什麼會如此來接下來本席要請教那麼台電你是否在15號有備妥限電停電的計畫因為你只告訴我們喔部長你聽喔他告訴我們說他在會議中沒討論所以等於是沒有正面的回覆會議中沒討論接下來本席要請問"},{"start":382.984,"end":397.19,"text":"沒關係你不回答也沒關係16號不回答也沒關係本席說要在這邊提問真正的答案到底15號總經理你們有沒有被託有沒有通知有沒有討論到要限電跟停電的這個報告因為據媒體所說你們已經通知台電向各區處喔通知要輪停準備"},{"start":408.015,"end":430.886,"text":"有沒有這回事 請說明好 跟委員報告我們通常在每一天的期前12小時或24小時會預估接下來的備轉容量率那麼到了中午的時候到了15號中午的時候我們的備轉容量率還是超過6%以上那以這麼大的備轉容量率其實我們不可能在那個時候就是說所以你們在會議中你15號整天的會議沒有討論嗎沒有討論我們要理清楚沒有討論都沒有討論"},{"start":437.429,"end":438.669,"text":"15日晚上出現的台電四部機跳機"},{"start":463.377,"end":486.573,"text":"全台備轉容量首度降到3%以下 嚇到我在台中我很緊張我們的中國要怎麼樣支應好接下來16號就發生了桃園的這樣的現象所以距離我們供電穩定是不是應該有很大的空間其實我們這樣看在4月15號的中午的時候"},{"start":488.377,"end":497.84,"text":"至少還有6% 差不多9% 為什麼?因為反習已經在跟你講到15號晚上如何了啦不要再去逃脫那些問題來接下來我們15日你台電就已經啟動了蓄電競價緊急機組的臭緊急調度"},{"start":507.482,"end":518.758,"text":"機制包括你請求台電、台積電、用電大幕的發電也啟動了河河河山廠以及我台中渦輪柴油發電都發電了水力發電來河來渡過這一次的難關"},{"start":523.544,"end":533.332,"text":"是不是如此那些基礎是不是如此有那些事實有那些事實嘛那些都是我備轉容量的一部分對你要給社會當中知道當你發生問題的時候你有什麼辦法嘛就不用怕嘛你要告訴民眾清楚啊不能人家問你不講嘛對不對你不講我們都會知道所以這一些剛剛本席所說的都是你在籌電的這個項目嘛都已經執行嘛"},{"start":553.647,"end":558.492,"text":"這一次要用電大戶來支援發電的狀況,那你這一次的成本又要花了多少?有的大概8塊錢,有的是比較貴的是10塊錢。有12塊嗎?"},{"start":575.882,"end":598.443,"text":"因為你們還有一個彈性兩層那個就12塊有沒有那是臨時調他起來有沒有有有有這一次有用到12塊嘛對不對對這都有簽約的就會跟他簽約你不用怕我們要了解事實所以你有用到12塊的嘛對不對是的所以這一次光光這一次你告訴部長這一次你的成本還要花多少"},{"start":600.411,"end":616.288,"text":"我們還沒有算我們這個等算出來再來回報部長所以本席第一個就是提問我們有討論的空間台電很辛苦全力支持台電但是你們要怎麼樣供電穩定你們必須要去檢討你不告訴我們方法我們要給你看答案"},{"start":622.267,"end":648.266,"text":"就這一次你度過難關你買到12塊你要花了多少成本真的這一次因為地震120萬千瓦的機組沒有修復大潭8號機明台456號機陸續的跳電你影響到185萬千瓦的供電你只要少了任何剛剛本席所說的你就瀕臨限電"},{"start":650.107,"end":668.176,"text":"這警戒線嘛 對不對王總經理現在是因為那些基礎很快就修復回來就是很特殊從此發生這麼多步都是因為地震之後告訴你本期憂心夏季要到了夏季的用電高峰來臨緊急調度的機制常常要登場會經常要登場你要未雨綢繆怎麼辦"},{"start":673.543,"end":688.154,"text":"跟委員報告我們的機組都是在利用非夏天的時候做維修所以這些機組在6月之前會陸續規定把你認為要穩定供電的方案請詳細書面資料給本席好不好是本席也再次強調"},{"start":690.097,"end":717.124,"text":"我們需要了解內容才能夠告訴民眾讓民眾安心好不好我最後一個議題推廣諾易基金的設立部長王總監會我們提升對外出口競爭力跟國際貿易的地位我願意但是我台中很重要的臺灣區工具機零組件工業同業工會也就是我們號稱你們也非常關心的TMBA"},{"start":718.064,"end":732.435,"text":"我們公布了我們的工具機112年9月份的出口是比前期我們少了11.4%那你出口的機種跟出口的市場我有跟你分清楚機種你少了12.9%市場少了13.3%所以在113年當中你的貿易推廣工作計畫裡頭一樣智慧這個機械海外推廣的經費一樣是1億"},{"start":747.347,"end":765.657,"text":"我每一次都給你全力的支持但是你推廣不力你告訴我怎麼樣協助我們產業好不好我們全力的支持預算你一樣照這樣編可是你市場一直在下降你的機種出口率也下降那怎麼辦你怎麼樣協助我們產業沒錢不要說有錢你又沒辦法給我們推動這怎麼辦啊"},{"start":772.641,"end":773.482,"text":"市長你這個回答還有有一點神經有觸動我請你告訴我"},{"start":797.862,"end":809.207,"text":"你每一年固定編列一樣的數字你的成效怎麼樣112年是成效不彰我告訴你市場下降了13%機種下降了12.9%你告訴我你未來怎麼推動請詳細書面資料給本市好嗎可以可以好我們再給委員"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}