{"error":false,"id":["151429"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":151429,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151429","日期":"2024-04-18","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-19-8","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":8,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[19],"委員會代碼:str":["經濟委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-04-18T11:31:27+08:00","結束時間":"2024-04-18T11:44:04+08:00","影片長度":"00:12:37","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/566e821c95e2b4450ff2edf37d7f312804d5d2f84b0f7606c5dab72e655c1c94f6a0a69783eab37e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"11:31:27 - 11:44:04","會議時間":"2024-04-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於經濟部主管：經濟作業基金、水資源作業基金、經濟特別收入基金、核能發電後端營運基金。(詢答)）","gazette":{"lineno":1079,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（11時31分）謝謝主席，麻煩請王美花部長跟台電總經理。"],["主席：我們請以上兩位。"],["王部長美花：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，本席早上看到您針對桃園的跳電道歉，桃園在今天早上總共有四千多戶跳電，你剛剛扯的理由，其實不能算理由，雖然報載是龍潭這邊跳電，事實上今天早上北部地區也都有大雷雨，為什麼獨獨就只有龍潭？你也即將離開部長這個職務，有沒有算過你在部長任內道歉了幾次？"],["王部長美花：跟委員報告，我們講的都不叫「扯」啦，事實就是事實……"],["洪委員孟楷：我現在問的問題是，有沒有算過部長任內道歉了幾次？"],["王部長美花：我沒有特別算，但是因為……"],["洪委員孟楷：有印象道歉過幾次？"],["王部長美花：沒有特別想這些事情。"],["洪委員孟楷：講過就忘記了？"],["王部長美花：也不是啦！"],["洪委員孟楷：犯了錯，道歉了，反正嘴皮子交換一下，講過就忘記了？"],["王部長美花：也不是，但是委員問我講幾次……"],["洪委員孟楷：本席幫你回憶一下，至少我們可以查到的就有3次，3次都跟什麼有關，記得嗎？"],["王部長美花：都是跟電有關。"],["洪委員孟楷：都跟電有關啦！2021年全臺大跳電，五天內兩次停電，經濟部長道歉；2022年3月3日全臺大停電，經濟部長道歉；今年龍潭、桃園連三天跳電，經濟部長又道歉。每次道歉都一定會講一句：不容許再發生這樣的錯誤了！不容許再讓國人沒有電可以用了！結果道歉完還是一樣，道歉完還是這樣子啊！"],["王部長美花：不一樣……"],["洪委員孟楷：還是一而再、再而三的道歉。"],["王部長美花：不是，不是，今天龍潭的部分……"],["洪委員孟楷：很廉價的道歉！"],["王部長美花：也不是，我們是很真誠的，讓居民花了比較長的時間……"],["洪委員孟楷：民眾感受不到！我不知道部長哪來的勇氣，可以在國會殿堂裡面說你的道歉是真誠的，我剛剛問你道歉過幾次，你不記得了，道歉理由你只記得說是跟電有關！之前在總質詢的時候，我就問過你了，你的勇氣到底是梁靜茹給你的，還是張震嶽給你的？"],["王部長美花：我覺得我們就是為國家認真來做事情。"],["洪委員孟楷：想請教部長，有人講4月15日經長還是台電高層緊急出手打電話給這一些國內的用電大戶，請他們降載或是啟動他們的一些備用電源，有沒有這樣的事情？"],["王部長美花：像這種臨時出狀況，非常緊急的時候，我們確實有……"],["洪委員孟楷：確實都有電話聯絡？"],["王部長美花：有電話聯繫。"],["洪委員孟楷：當初電話聯絡了多少家業者、廠商？"],["王部長美花：因為是台電這邊來做相關的聯絡。"],["洪委員孟楷：請總經理回答。"],["王總經理耀庭：這個部分，我們是針對用電比較大的用戶。"],["洪委員孟楷：聯絡了多少家廠商？"],["王總經理耀庭：這是請我們業務單位去聯絡，大概是十家左右，確實的數字我不知道，要再統計才知道。"],["洪委員孟楷：因為媒體報導有提到當天的備轉容量率最低的時候到2.8%，2.8%換算成瓩會是多少？"],["王總經理耀庭：我們大概還有八、九十萬瓩……"],["洪委員孟楷：2.8%大概還有八、九十萬，是不是？"],["王總經理耀庭：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，本席就取一個平均值85萬左右。台電有一個內規叫作台灣電力公司電源不足時期限制用電辦法執行及通報機制，有嗎？"],["王總經理耀庭：有。"],["洪委員孟楷：該辦法提到，若少於90萬瓩的時候，要召開第一次的緊急會議，剛剛提到4月15日那天是低於90萬瓩，你們有沒有召開緊急會議？"],["王總經理耀庭：跟委員報告，發生低於剛剛講到的八十多萬是到了晚上的6點16分……"],["洪委員孟楷：是，你們有沒有召開緊急會議？"],["王總經理耀庭：我們在前面都會召開會議，每天都會開會，只是會議的頻度跟它的那個層級……"],["洪委員孟楷：本席現在要問的是，你剛剛已經承認台電內部有電源不足時期限制用電辦法執行跟通報機制，裡面提到如果少於90萬瓩，要召開第一次的緊急會議，如果更急迫少於50萬瓩，要召開第二次的緊急會議，並即刻通報經濟部，經濟部也要成立緊急應變小組，對吧？"],["王總經理耀庭：是，沒有錯，但是跟委員報告……"],["洪委員孟楷：好，本席現在請教，4月15日那天有沒有依照相關的規定召開緊急會議？"],["王總經理耀庭：我們是在當天早上8點10分跟12點召開會議，但是那個不叫緊急會議，因為那時候的備轉容量率還在6%以上，是安全的，是很安全的，是在下午的時候……"],["洪委員孟楷：本席現在問是2.8%的時候，有沒有依照我們的內部通報機制召開緊急會議？"],["王總經理耀庭：相關同仁都在我們的緊急會議室，沒有召開緊急會議的這個名目，但是我們的高階主管全部在那個地方。"],["洪委員孟楷：本席要請教你們打給這十家工業大戶是用什麼樣名義跟決策？法源依據在哪裡？"],["王總經理耀庭：我們有需量反應的機制，也是有合約的關係。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，您聽得懂剛剛本席的疑問跟質詢了嗎？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：台電內部有我剛剛提到的這個機制，這個也是依照相關條例，在台電內部設立電源不足時期限制用電辦法，限制用電辦法明文規定，低於90萬瓩的時候要召開緊急會議，同時也要通報經濟部；剛剛總經理也承認了，其實當天已經低於90萬瓩了，但是沒有依照相關辦法來召開緊急會議；他說大家有在這個會議裡面，但是沒有成立這樣的一個應變小組，也有去打電話給這十家的工業大戶。我們就要問這十家工業大戶到底是依照什麼樣的法源依據？這些工業大戶算是配合，因為可能也認為我們就一起共體時艱，大家覺得你是發電機關，你是發電公司，你告訴我們電源不夠了，我們該降的降，該調整的調整；但是你沒有相關的法源依據，如果你有成立這個緊急會議的話，你才能夠有法源依據去要求，不是嗎？而且有沒有依照相關的規定通報經濟部？還是因為現在是5月20日之前，所以大家便宜行事，反正手機拿起來打一下，用LINE傳一下，大家就用人情拜託，總經理平常跟你也不錯，部長平常跟大家也不錯，所以我就傳訊給你，我就打電話給你，你降就對了、啟動就對了！國家做事都沒有一個法源、都沒有一個辦法嗎？"],["王部長美花：我可不可以說明一下？第一個，委員講的那個時段，事實上，台電所有高階主管都在25樓的會議裡面，這個會議事實上……"],["洪委員孟楷：為什麼沒有依照法規、為什麼沒有依照辦法來成立緊急應變小組召開緊急會議？"],["王部長美花：那個時間比較重要的是來解決問題，所有的高管都已經在這邊處理這個問題了。"],["洪委員孟楷：當然都要解決問題，本席要問的是後續請提供緊急會議的會議紀錄，有沒有？"],["王部長美花：我想既然叫……"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有？"],["王部長美花：我想既然是緊急會議……"],["洪委員孟楷：是不是又是黑箱作業？"],["王部長美花：既然叫緊急會議，就是要處理事情……"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有錯，緊急會議就是要處理事情，但是你的會議紀錄在哪裡？"],["王部長美花：我再請台電來跟委員做說明，那我想……"],["洪委員孟楷：這不是說明就可以解決的，如果說我們國家做事……"],["王部長美花：委員要知道在那個時間最重要的是解決問題……"],["洪委員孟楷：當然要解決問題，但更重要的是你的法源依據在哪裡？三秒鐘也是開會、成立、趕快、決策、有人負責，三分鐘之內就可以做出決定，這就有法源依據。你有辦法……"],["王部長美花：他們所有人都那邊做了。"],["洪委員孟楷：如果說你的辦法出來之後，你沒有依照相關的辦法去做，而是每一次都是用人治的、都是私下拜託的，你除了第一，沒有法源依據，第二，便宜行事，第三，迴避國會的監督，所以本席才會……"],["王部長美花：委員這樣講，我不能接受。"],["洪委員孟楷：我不管你能不能接受，因為今天是你做不到。"],["王部長美花：不是做不到，我們是趕快解決……"],["洪委員孟楷：你沒有權力接不接受，現在是本席在質詢你，本席在問說那緊急會議的會議紀錄在哪裡、當天做出決策的會議紀錄在哪裡？可不可以提供？"],["王部長美花：我們可以把那一天在開會時有碰到什麼問題、然後做了怎麼樣的一個處理，可以跟委員做一個報告。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以當天有會議紀錄嗎？"],["王部長美花：當天當然沒有。"],["洪委員孟楷：當然沒有會議紀錄！部長親口承認……"],["王部長美花：既然叫緊急會議，當天的會議是要解決問題，當天的會議不是為了要做成會議紀錄嘛！"],["洪委員孟楷：4月15號在那麼緊急的一個狀況下沒有會議紀錄，大家就是共同的來黑箱作業。"],["王部長美花：這個不叫黑箱，這個解決問題最重要啊！第二個……"],["洪委員孟楷：當然解決問題重要，但你現在便宜行事。"],["王部長美花：這不叫便宜行事……"],["洪委員孟楷：本席就已經講出來了，一開始我就講說有沒有這樣的法律跟辦法。"],["王部長美花：委員，要救人、救電，當然最重要就是要來解決事情最重要嘛！至於……"],["洪委員孟楷：我講一句不客氣的話，所謂的要救電是誰造成的？也是你台電、也是你經濟部，不是嗎？"],["王部長美花：這個地震造成的問題……"],["洪委員孟楷：能源政策搞得左支右絀、能源政策搞得讓大家覺得提心吊膽、能源政策搞得要去調頭寸，這不是你經濟部造成的嗎？"],["王部長美花：這是地震的問題……"],["洪委員孟楷：你今天反客為主……"],["王部長美花：我沒有反客為主，你要讓我們說明嘛！"],["洪委員孟楷：你今天顛倒是非、你今天讓大家覺得說明明是你自己闖出來的禍，結果你今天有這樣的一個緊急狀況，竟還沒有會議紀錄！這不是黑箱的話，什麼才是黑箱？"],["王部長美花：我完全不能接受這種東西。"],["洪委員孟楷：我不管你接不接受，因為這根本不是你的權力。"],["王部長美花：委員不可以這樣誣衊我們，我們要這樣做是把事情……"],["洪委員孟楷：這不是你的權力！"],["王部長美花：我們跟這些大用戶都有相關的契約。"],["洪委員孟楷：本席再次強調，臺灣、我們中華民國是法治的國家，本來就有相關的辦法，你沒有辦法自圓其說！部長，你沒有辦法自圓其說，因為你現在……"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["洪委員孟楷：最重要的是，你這樣是迴避國會的監督。"],["王部長美花：我沒有，我們就在這裡讓委員監督。"],["洪委員孟楷：完全迴避國會的監督，我說實在話，再道歉一百次都不及讓國人有一個合理安全穩定的用電來得重要，這是本席給你的最後忠告。謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。我想大家都不要激動，趕快去把事情釐清楚。但是剛剛本席在詢答的時候，行政部門告訴我的是當天都沒有開會，現在是說高階主管都在現場，本席也問了，到底這一次的事件我們又多花了多少錢？告訴我1度電的調度是8塊，再接下來是說10塊，最後我說還有沒有兩成的彈性空間，最後說有，12塊，這個都依據你們既有的調度機制在走，到目前是如此嘛？王總。所以請行政部門在回答的時候要把真實的事情講出來，好不好？"],["洪委員孟楷：主席，我要求下班前提供資料。"],["主席：你把真實的事情講出來，民眾要知道，光一個這樣的事件發生的時候，人民的納稅錢還要增加多少？這是第一點。台電公司剛剛告訴我還沒有統計完成，那請你們在今天下班前把它統計完成，送交給經濟委員會以及詢答的委員，王總經理，謝謝。這才是非常理性的一個討論，因為不是罵來罵去，罵到最後得不到答案，民眾不要這個的。","接下來我們請黃國昌委員，請做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":412,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-8","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","張嘉郡","賴瑞隆","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","呂玉玲","鄭天財Sra 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我覺得我們做事情就是為國家認真來做事情部長想請教4月15號這一次我們有提到也有人講到是說這個金掌或是說這個台電高層緊急出手打電話給我們這一些國內的大戶請他們要嘛就是降載要嘛就是啟動他們的一些備用電源有沒有這樣的事情"},{"start":186.654,"end":191.338,"text":"我們在這個非常緊急的像這種臨時出狀況的部分我們確實有電話聯絡有電話聯繫是當初電話聯絡聯絡了多少家業者?因為這個是台電這邊來做相關的聯絡總經理請回答"},{"start":209.989,"end":214.433,"text":"媒體報導也有講是說當天的備轉容量率最低的時候到2.8%2.8%換算成這個千瓦的話會是多少?"},{"start":237.301,"end":241.203,"text":"臺電有個內規叫做臺灣電力公司電源不足時期限制用電辦法執行及通報機制有嗎?"},{"start":241.203,"end":241.223,"text":"有"},{"start":265.506,"end":293.485,"text":"他有講到如果說少於90萬千瓦的時候要召開第1次的緊急會議所以剛有提到4月15號是低於90萬千瓦有沒有召開緊急會議跟委員報告發生低於剛剛講到八八八十萬這個是到了晚上的6點16分是那有沒有召開緊急會議那我們在前面都會有召開會議每天都會開會但是說會議的頻度跟他的那個層級"},{"start":294.466,"end":302.715,"text":"本席現在要問的是說你剛剛已經承認了台電內部我們有電源不足時期限制用電辦法執行跟通報機制"},{"start":304.329,"end":322.469,"text":"他有講到如果說少於90萬千瓦要召開第一次的緊急會議如果更急迫少於50萬千瓦要召開第二次的緊急會議並且要即刻通報經濟部經濟部也要成立緊急應變小組對嗎沒有錯那本席現在請教"},{"start":324.867,"end":342.295,"text":"4月15號那天有沒有依照相關規定召開緊急會議我們是在當天的早上8點10分跟12點召開會議但是那個不叫緊急會議因為那個時候的備轉容量率還有在6%以上是安全的是很安全的本席現在問是2.8%的時候有沒有依照我們的內部通報機制"},{"start":347.017,"end":370.987,"text":"召開緊急會議我們相關同仁都在我們的緊急會議室但是沒有那個名目說召開這個緊急會議沒有這個名目但是我們的高階主管全部在那個地方那你做出來決策你好那本席要請教所以你今天打給這10家工業大戶你是用什麼樣的名義跟決策我們有所謂的虛量反應我們有虛量反應的機制第一個是虛量反應的機制虛量反應的機制也是有合約的關係"},{"start":377.273,"end":390.679,"text":"您聽得懂剛剛本席的疑問跟質詢了嗎?是台電內部有我剛剛提到的這個是我們也是依照相關條例台電內部有設立電源不足時期限制用電辦法"},{"start":392.386,"end":412.392,"text":"限制優先辦法明文就已經有規定了如果說低於90萬千瓦的時候要召開緊急會議那也要通報經濟部但是剛剛總經理也承認了就是說其實當天已經低於90萬千瓦了但是沒有依照相關的辦法來召開緊急會議他又嘗試說大家有在這個會議裡面但是沒有來成立這樣的一個應變小組"},{"start":413.672,"end":434.763,"text":"那可是有去打電話給這10家的工業大戶那我們就要問這10家工業大戶他到底是依照什麼樣的法源依據先工業大戶算是配合啊因為可能也認為是說我們國家共體時間大家覺得是說好如果說現在真的你告訴我們你是發電機關你是發電公司你告訴我們說電源不夠了我們該降的降該調整的調整"},{"start":436.384,"end":455.361,"text":"但是你沒有相關法院依據啊因為如果說你有成立這個緊急會議的話你才能夠有法院依據來去要求不是嗎而且有沒有依照相關的規定來通報經濟部還是現在都是因為5月20號之前了所以大家便宜行事換點手機拿起來卡這個LINE傳這個"},{"start":457.583,"end":480.611,"text":"阿大家用人情拜託的阿中間你平常跟你也不錯你保證跟平常跟你也不錯所以我就傳訊給你我就打電話給你你就這樣就對了你就啟動就對了國家做事都沒有一個法源都沒有一個辦法嗎我可不可以我說明一下齁那第一個委員講的那個時段事實上他們台電的所有的高階通貨都在這個25樓的會議裡面那這個會議事實上 那為什麼沒有依照法規"},{"start":485.033,"end":494.041,"text":"為什麼沒有依照辦法來成立緊急應變小組來召開緊急會議那個時間比較重要是來解決問題那所有的高管都已經在這邊出了這個問題了本席要問的後續就是請提供緊急會議的會議記錄"},{"start":502.298,"end":513.381,"text":"有沒有沒有那是不是又是黑箱作業你就是讓沒有錯緊急會議就要處理事情但是你的會議記錄在哪裡這不是說明就可以解決的如果說我們國家內做事當然要解決問題但是更重要的是你的法源依據在哪裡"},{"start":528.647,"end":553.782,"text":"三秒鐘也是開會成立趕快決策有人負責三分鐘之內就可以做出決定這就有法源依據你有辦法如果說你的辦法出來之後你沒有依照相關的辦法去做而是每一次都是用人質的都是私下拜託的你除了第一沒有法源依據第二便宜行事第三是迴避國會的監督這個"},{"start":555.283,"end":556.604,"text":"本席在問說那緊急會議的會議記錄在哪裡?當天做錯決策會議記錄在哪裡?"},{"start":570.908,"end":572.569,"text":"主委提供所以當天有會議記錄嗎?當然沒有會議記錄部長親口承認4月15號在那麼緊急的狀況下沒有會議記錄大家就是共同的來"},{"start":594.349,"end":622.278,"text":"黑箱作業這個不叫黑箱這個解決問題最重要啊當然解決問題最重要但是你現在便宜形式本席就已經講出來了一開始我就講說有沒有這樣的辦法當然最重要就是要來解決事情最重要嘛我講不客氣的要所謂的救電是誰造成的也是你台電也是你經濟部不是嗎能源政策左肢右臭能源政策搞得讓大家覺得說提心吊膽能源政策搞得要去掉頭寸"},{"start":623.258,"end":643.91,"text":"這不是你經濟部造成的嗎這地震的問題你今天反客為主我沒有反客你今天反客為主你今天顛倒是非你今天讓大家覺得是說明明是你自己闖出來的禍結果你今天有這樣的一個緊急狀況還沒有會議記錄這不黑箱 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