{"error":false,"id":["151436"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":151436,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151436","日期":"2024-04-18","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-20-9","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第9次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":9,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[20],"委員會代碼:str":["財政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第9次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-04-18T11:43:58+08:00","結束時間":"2024-04-18T11:56:59+08:00","影片長度":"00:13:01","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/566e821c95e2b44593e80d7fffeb795c0525562164469c9cc5dab72e655c1c94ff30f6c757e0e6d45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王世堅","委員發言時間":"11:43:58 - 11:56:59","會議時間":"2024-04-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算決議，有關行政院主計總處預算凍結書面報告案15案。\n二、處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算決議，有關第二預備金預算凍結書面報告案1案。\n三、處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算決議，有關審計部主管預算凍結書面報告案11案。\n四、審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算決議，有關行政院主計總處預算凍結書面報告案3案。\n五、審查「證券投資信託及顧問法」3案：（僅詢答）\n(一)行政院函請審議、本院委員郭國文等16人擬具「證券投資信託及顧問法部分條文修正草案」等2案。\n(二)本院委員林楚茵等17人擬具「證券投資信託及顧問法第一條、第二條及第三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n六、審查本院委員郭國文等16人擬具「不動產證券化條例部分條文修正草案」案。（僅詢答））","gazette":{"lineno":824,"blocks":[["王委員世堅：（11時44分）主席！我請金管委員黃主委。"],["主席：請黃主委。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員好！"],["王委員世堅：黃主委！昨天我們金管會公布有6家銀行在針對歐美商辦授信的部分踩雷啦！更讓我們訝異的是6家裡面竟然有5家公股行庫，這一點讓我們覺得不可思議耶！因為財政部也好金管會也好，一再的三令五申，希望資金能夠留在我們國內來投資公共建設，這幾年就不要往國外去做這些不當的授信，所以我現在要問的就是，你初步的報告是說這6家踩雷的金額不算太大，大概一百億台幣，既然你昨天公布了，那順便讓我們知道一下是哪6家銀行，好不好？尤其是哪5家公營行庫，連公營行庫都調皮搗蛋，不聽政府的勸！是哪幾家？"],["黃主任委員天牧：剛才也有委員垂詢，大概就是三商銀─彰化、第一、華南，然後還有兆豐跟臺灣銀行。"],["王委員世堅：三商銀？連臺銀都在內？哇！臺銀是模範生耶！"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，授信有問題不見得一定是中間有弊端啦，有些是風險判斷的問題。"],["王委員世堅：風險判斷的錯誤就是了啊！模範生也會犯這樣的錯誤我覺得很訝異啦！模範生頂多是忘了帶手帕，指甲忘了剪，怎麼會搞出這樣的差錯呢？現在你們所了解的、掌握的，這樣子在海外歐美投資商辦還有暴險的，根據你們給我的資料也還有很多，暴險金額大概有1,000億台幣左右耶！"],["黃主任委員天牧：1,400億。"],["王委員世堅：1,400億耶！那這些部分怎麼辦？黃主委去年有說要做海外金檢，請問海外金檢做了沒？"],["黃主任委員天牧：有做，其實有的在……"],["王委員世堅：有做又發生踩雷的事？然後現在很可能暴險的還有1,400多億，那這做跟沒做有什麼差別嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，我們去金檢的時候，這些貸款都已經在做了，只是去檢查它承貸過程中的流程是不是有依照相關的規定執行。"],["王委員世堅：你做了海外金檢之後，你認為這些授信，包括已經踩雷的或者即將暴險的一千四百多億，加起來共計1,500多億有問題嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：基本上，檢查局這邊的結果應該大體上沒有什麼重大的缺失，都是程序面的問題。"],["王委員世堅：大體上沒有重大缺失？統統沒有缺失？程序面的問題？他第一個不合程序的就是不聽政府的勸，不是嗎？我們都呼籲要把資金留在國內，要趕快加速我們的公共建設，結果他們不聽話，還是跑了出去，這就是程序面有問題。"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，我們國營銀行在海外有幾百家分行，那是海外分行所做的，它本來就在海外，就是要做海外的授信。"],["王委員世堅：對，海外的授信本來就該做，但是歐洲尤其美國，美國那麼大，他們的商辦授信要特別小心，它到處這邊開發一下那邊開發一下，這類商業物件太多了，隨著景氣瞻之在前忽焉在後的，一下在左一下在右，這很難拿捏的，不是嗎？本來對這個部分就要特別小心，你有這些銀行到國外去，有那些分行，並不是說非得要做一些授信案或一定要做多少授信案，沒有給他們這樣子的壓力，不是嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，可是海外分行就是要靠授信才能夠有收入的。"],["王委員世堅：對啦！可是大政策、大方向都告訴它現在該緊縮的時候，該避險不避險，為了賺那一點利息，不但沒賺到，本金還被倒掉，那不是很慘嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：有，委員您指示的對啦，其實我們兩年前也都提醒，因為整個的經濟景氣對於商辦的使用率都有改變，所以提醒大家注意，這個我們也有提醒啦，有些發生的問題是因為很早就帶出去的。"],["王委員世堅：很早就帶出去？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是、是。"],["王委員世堅：好啦！我希望你們的海外金檢不只是去年做，往後這應該例行性的、定期的去做海外金檢。","另外還有一件，我也覺得很離譜，就是我昨天提到的三大租賃公司薯條三兄弟，他們的老大哥中租迪和，去年公股行庫聯貸給它1,260億，聯貸給中租迪和的時候有跟它加註一個條件，就是這些資金不能拿到對岸的中國去做投資授信，有這樣跟它要求啊，不是嗎？好啦！它拿到聯貸了，這個薯條三兄弟的老大就公然在中國那邊大做特做，拿到中國去做，怎麼知道的？黃主委你也很清楚嘛，你看他們去年的財報，去年的財報有35%的利潤來自中國，那就很清楚啦，三令五申跟它說授信的條件，就是這一筆不要拿到中國去做，它照樣拿去做！現在拿出來的成績說：有啦！我們公司1/3的獲利來自它！黃主委，第一點，這樣子的獲利不可信，這樣子的獲利就是他們公司高層大家分一分而已。第二點，隱藏的危機根本全然不知啊，不是嗎？中國那邊現在經濟衰退，各行各業都衰退，當國外歐美日自由世界的資金都大量從中國那邊撤離的時候，只有這一家無敵鐵金剛拿著我們臺灣存款戶的錢大剌剌的就過去了。我認為他們這樣子的財報只是表面的，這樣的財報，第一，馬上就違背了我們的授信條件、授信的要求，不是嗎？所以我希望黃主委回去把這查清楚，聯貸給它的是哪幾家銀行？一定要查。第二，誰是主辦銀行？有加註這一條，寫得很清楚，聯貸給你這1,260億不得到中國放款，就這麼清楚，他們公然就這麼去啦！這個你查一下，多久時間可以給我這些資料？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們一週之內提供給委員，謝謝委員。"],["王委員世堅：多久之內？"],["黃主任委員天牧：一週可以嗎？"],["王委員世堅：一週之內？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["王委員世堅：再來我要問你的是類似這樣，就是銀行加註貸款條件如果違背的時候，是不是可以立刻收回這筆貸款？不是嗎？他都違背了啊！"],["黃主任委員天牧：好，我們一定瞭解，不過跟委員報告一下，我們的瞭解目前在國內對於這些租賃公司的授信，理論上如果要到中國去投資，基本上要經過投審會，不論是核准跟備查，我們的瞭解，目前真正這邊的錢到那邊的大概不到兩、三百億。"],["王委員世堅：不到兩、三百億？"],["黃主任委員天牧：差不多，但是我們可以再瞭解一下再跟您報告。"],["王委員世堅：我剛剛講的這筆聯貸……"],["黃主任委員天牧：它是在當地借錢的，它是在中國內部的金融機構借錢的，不見得完全是臺灣的錢過去。"],["王委員世堅：不見得從臺灣去？"],["黃主任委員天牧：對，不見得是從臺灣過去。"],["王委員世堅：好吧，錢反正是大水庫，借了就是混在一堆，不是嗎？你說不是從我們臺灣過去的錢？"],["黃主任委員天牧：大部分都是在當地借貸的。"],["王委員世堅：但是它的利潤，他們說公司的收益三分之一是來自於……，不是這樣嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這個的確對某些租賃公司是事實。"],["王委員世堅：你認為他們這樣子的租賃公司那麼神通廣大，在中國另外有辦法拿到資金，那他們跟中共有共謀、有通囉？"],["黃主任委員天牧：那是一個市場機制，企業需要資金向金融機構借貸。"],["王委員世堅：別的我不敢講，不可能有資金給他們在中國那邊放，原因是什麼？中國要這麼做，他們自己就去放給他們自己人就好了，不是嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：瞭解、瞭解。"],["王委員世堅：它幹麼需要我們臺灣這邊所謂的租賃公司去他們那邊做掮客（broker)，不是嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["王委員世堅：它也知道這些金融掮客過來是對他們民眾多扒一層皮，不是這樣嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。我們……"],["王委員世堅：所以我認為光這幾點，我剛剛提到的，第一點，這1,260億的聯貸加註的這個條件，它沒有做到，那應該怎麼處罰它？我已經很清楚它拿到中國去。第二點，為今之計亡羊補牢，是不是現在就應該叫它把這筆貸款還回來，為什麼？因為中國那邊的市場黑矇矇一片，不要到時候又承認像美國當時的次貸風暴一樣，中國很可能就醞釀出這種風暴，到時候血本無歸，損失的就是我們臺灣貸款給它的銀行，損失的就是我們辛苦存款戶的血汗錢。"],["黃主任委員天牧：瞭解。"],["王委員世堅：好不好？你一個禮拜內給我答復。"],["黃主任委員天牧：好，瞭解。謝謝委員指導。"],["主席(李委員坤城代）：謝謝王世堅委員。","接下來請陳委員玉珍發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":478,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-9","speakers":["郭國文","林楚茵","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","李彥秀","賴惠員","王鴻薇","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","黃珊珊","李坤城","王世堅","陳玉珍","羅明才","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","楊瓊瓔","鍾佳濱","黃國昌","顏寬恒"],"page_start":413,"meetingDate":["2024-04-18"],"gazette_id":"1133101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133101_00012"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理中華民國 113 年度中央政府總預算決議，有關行政院主計總處預算凍結書面報告案 15\n案；二、處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算決議，有關第二預備金預算凍結書面報告案1案；\n三、處理中華民國 113 年度中央政府總預算決議，有關審計部主管預算凍結書面報告案 11 案；\n四、審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算決議，有關行政院主計總處預算凍結書面報告案3案；\n五、審查「證券投資信託及顧問法」 3 案： ( 一 ) 行政院函請審議、本院委員郭國文等 16 人擬具\n「證券投資信託及顧問法部分條文修正草案」等2案、(二)本院委員林楚茵等17人擬具「證券投\n資信託及顧問法第一條、第二條及第三條之一條文修正草案」案（僅詢答）；六、審查本院委員\n郭國文等16人擬具「不動產證券化條例部分條文修正草案」案（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"1133101_00019"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.219093750000003,"end":11.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.72534375,"end":14.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.297843750000002,"end":20.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.31471875,"end":20.820968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.83346875,"end":22.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.082218750000003,"end":23.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.90909375,"end":24.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.05659375,"end":26.777843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.621593750000002,"end":30.034718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.675968750000003,"end":31.772843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.127218750000004,"end":33.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.439093750000005,"end":36.345968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.03784375,"end":38.337218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.72534375,"end":42.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.46721875,"end":44.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.47971875,"end":45.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.049093750000004,"end":47.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.344093750000006,"end":55.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.81971875,"end":60.595343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.439093750000005,"end":63.531593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.08846875,"end":64.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.94471875,"end":68.81346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.65721875,"end":72.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.66096875000001,"end":73.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.77471875,"end":77.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.80346875000001,"end":83.39346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.51159375,"end":83.86596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.08534375,"end":95.22284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.84721875000001,"end":99.81284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.70346875,"end":97.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.04096875,"end":98.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.07846875000001,"end":101.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.42846875000001,"end":110.22471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.31784375000001,"end":109.63409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.62971875000001,"end":112.84034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.78971875,"end":113.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.61221875000001,"end":117.05909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.98721875000001,"end":126.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.66534375,"end":129.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.27221875,"end":130.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.35659375,"end":134.71034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.13221875000002,"end":138.55784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.89534375,"end":139.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.45221875000001,"end":141.69659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.54034375,"end":144.22784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.66221875000002,"end":148.29471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.15534375000001,"end":149.88096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.16784375,"end":153.28971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.64409375,"end":159.58409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.15784375,"end":162.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.99284375000002,"end":163.71846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.05596875,"end":166.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.66721875000002,"end":168.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.40971875000002,"end":169.77659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.16471875000002,"end":171.80159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.97034375,"end":173.01659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.37096875,"end":173.96159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.97409375,"end":180.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.67784375000002,"end":183.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.54659375,"end":183.64784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.64784375000002,"end":185.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.57596875000002,"end":185.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.13284375,"end":186.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.54596875000001,"end":188.35596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.14909375000002,"end":190.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.34721875000002,"end":191.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.56221875,"end":194.16096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.64596875,"end":195.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.66284375,"end":208.16721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER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的分行是海外在分行所做的啦所以他本來就在海外就是要做海外的授信對海外的授信本來就該做但是歐洲尤其美國美國那麼大"},{"start":285.697,"end":313.299,"text":"他們的商業商辦這樣子的授信要特別小心他到處這邊再開發一下那邊開發一下到處他商業的這樣子的物件太多啦那隨著景氣沾汁在前呼煙在後一下在左一下在右這很難拿捏的不是嗎本來對這個部分就要特別小心啦"},{"start":314.417,"end":329.867,"text":"你有這些銀行到國外去有那些分行並不是說那非得那就要一定要做一些授信案一定非得要做多少授信案沒有這樣子的壓力給他們不是嗎"},{"start":330.703,"end":353.176,"text":"可是報告委員海外分行他的收入就是要靠受信才能夠有收入的對啦大政策大方向都告訴他說現在該緊縮的時候是該避險不避險為了賺那一點利息不但沒賺到本金被倒掉那不是很慘嗎"},{"start":354.016,"end":355.317,"text":"我希望說你海外經檢不只是去年做了"},{"start":378.069,"end":405.515,"text":"往後這應該例行性的定期的去做海外精簡那另外還有一件也是我覺得很離譜啊就我昨天提到的這個三大租賃公司數條三兄弟啊這個他們的老大哥中租敵核中租敵核在去年"},{"start":407.571,"end":435.74,"text":"公股行戶連帶給他的時候連帶1260億連帶給中租敵額的時候有跟他加注一個條件就是說這些資金不能拿到對岸中國去做投資授信這樣跟他要求啊不是嗎好啦他連帶拿到啦這個薯條三兄弟的老大"},{"start":437.25,"end":448.899,"text":"就公然在中國那邊就大做特做拿到中國去做怎麼知道的欸欸黃主委你也很清楚嘛你看他們去年的財報他去年的財報他有35%的利潤來自於中國"},{"start":458.646,"end":475.327,"text":"那就很清楚啦三令五申跟他說受信的條件就是啊那你這一筆你不要拿到中國去做他照樣拿去做那現在拿出來的成績說有啦我們公司三分之一的獲利來自於他"},{"start":477.154,"end":497.225,"text":"黃志偉第一點這樣子的獲利不可信這樣子的獲利就是公司他們的高層大家分一分而已第二點隱藏的危機根本全然不知啊不是嗎中國那邊現在經濟衰退各行各業都衰退"},{"start":500.141,"end":527.956,"text":"國外歐美日自由世界的資金都大量從中國那邊撤離的時候只有這一家無敵鐵金剛拿著我們台灣我們存款戶的錢大剌剌的就過去了所以我認為啊他這樣子的財報只是表面的啦"},{"start":529.023,"end":553.021,"text":"這樣的財報第一點黃主委這馬上就違背了我們的授信條件授信的要求不是嗎所以我希望黃主委你回去把這個查清楚連帶給他的是哪幾家銀行一定要查然後誰是主辦銀行第二點有加注這一條寫很清楚連帶給你這1260億不得到中國去做放款"},{"start":557.648,"end":585.766,"text":"就這麼清楚他公然就這麼去啦所以這個你查一下你多久時間可以給我這個我們一週之內提供給委員是不是委員多久之內一週可以嗎一週之內這樣子的情況再來我要問你的就是說像類似這樣就是說銀行加注"},{"start":587.574,"end":607.405,"text":"一、處理中華民國11年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案2、處理中華民國11年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案3、處理中華民國11年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案4、處理中華民國11年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案5、處理中華民國11年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案6、處理中華民國11年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案7、處理中華民國11年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案8、處理中華民國11年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案9、處理中華民國11年度中央政府總"},{"start":617.29,"end":621.252,"text":"一、處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算決議．有關審計一、處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算決議．有關審計"},{"start":644.685,"end":670.777,"text":"台灣我們台灣過去的錢大部分都是在當地借貸的但是他的利潤他說他公司的收益三分之一是來自於不是這樣嗎這個的確對某些租賃公司是事實是事實那你認為他們這樣子的租賃公司那麼神通廣大在中國他另外有辦法拿到資金"},{"start":672.93,"end":697.648,"text":"哦!那他們跟中共有共謀囉!有通囉!沒有,那是一個市場機制啦!那個企業需要資金向金融機構借貸。別的我不敢講!不可能有資金給他們在中國那邊放!原因是什麼?中國要這麼做,他們自己就去放給他們自己人就好啦!不是嗎?他幹嘛需要說我們台灣這邊的"},{"start":700.659,"end":726.734,"text":"一、處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案2、處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案3、處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案4、處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案5、處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案6、處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案7、處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案8、處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案9、處理中華民國"},{"start":728.467,"end":751.556,"text":"加注的這個條件他沒有做到那應該怎麼處罰他我已經很清楚他拿到中國去第二點是不是應該唯金之器王洋補牢現在就應該叫他把這筆貸款還回來為什麼因為中國那邊的市長黑媽媽一片"},{"start":753.149,"end":755.39,"text":"二、處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算決議．有關審計"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}