{"error":false,"id":["151464"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":151464,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151464","日期":"2024-04-18","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-36-14","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第14次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":14,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第14次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-04-18T12:11:48+08:00","結束時間":"2024-04-18T12:20:47+08:00","影片長度":"00:08:59","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/566e821c95e2b4453e9ade5aad49fc9ff81d0e85270258c9c5dab72e655c1c94a00f58aa63e905615ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝龍介","委員發言時間":"12:11:48 - 12:20:47","會議時間":"2024-04-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、民進黨黨團擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法增訂第二十八條之三及第二十八條之四條文草案」案。\n四、委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。）","gazette":{"lineno":467,"blocks":[["謝委員龍介：（12時12分）主席，我請秘書長。"],["主席：請周秘書長。"],["周秘書長萬來：謝委員好。"],["謝委員龍介：秘書長你好。改革是大家都很喜歡，大家都很想要做的一件事情。合理說，改革就是要說自己好的，賣花要說花紅，賣茶要說茶香，對不對？現在卻不是這樣，都是互相漏氣，看藍綠白互相漏氣，也不一定會進步。藍的說綠的1990年說什麼、誰說了什麼，綠的說藍的1991年說什麼、誰說了什麼，本來就要審時度勢，事情本來就是時間不同，結果現在在這裡龜笑鱉無尾，鱉笑龜粗皮，你們坐在那裡看兩邊互罵，你們都微微笑。","我個人覺得，為什麼大家會提出改革方案？就是要滿足社會期待嘛。對不對？過去七、八年來，就是立法院自我閹割，民間說立法院幾乎就是行政院的立法局，處處只有背書嚒。現在要來面對，今天不是民進黨可以萬年執政，任何政黨都有可能執政，因為行政權的傲慢，才會造成他們有恃無恐，有人在背書，有人在扛，有人在護航嘛。這次剛好國會三黨不過半，不管誰執政，這就是一個改革最好的契機，結果不是，民進黨要趕，國民黨也要趕，大家本來可以好好坐下來談，一味杯葛是沒有辦法的，你要去思考為什麼今天國民黨要這麼緊急，就是因為行政權的傲慢！","我們就講我們的質詢好了，主席唱名三次沒有來，讓官員在那邊等，這種畫面出去，社會能夠容忍嗎？你們立法委員今日是沒有人對你們管考，所以比官員更沒有壓力，但是所有的官員壓力都很大，大家上班壓力都很大，法官壓力很大，檢察官壓力也很大，大家都有壓力，結果來這裡備詢，主席唱名立委不到，就叫官員坐在那邊等，這樣的畫面放出去，社會能夠諒解嗎？這本來就是大家要共同面對的。","再來是行政權的傲慢，國民黨今天在立法院要爭的不是擴權，而是復權，過去七、八年自我閹割，立法委員做得沒有尊嚴，部長沒有在跟你神經，乾脆就不說實話。詐騙集團為何會跟民進黨那些人合照？這和民進黨本身沒有關係，因為剛好是民進黨執政，今天若是國民黨執政，這些詐騙集團就會來和國民黨合照，為什麼？就是因為想要藉這個場面取得社會一般人民的信賴，行詐騙之實，所以詐欺案件會那麼多，就是因為行政權沒有得到適度的監督，他們可以來這邊「黑白講」，甚至可以對立委反質詢，覺得可以不用接受立委的質問，覺得自己沒說實話也不要緊，這些詐騙集團，和他們合照過的這些人就會覺得不要緊，越騙越多，也抓不到我們。你看臺版的柬埔寨案判決判那麼輕，那麼多檢察官抓那麼多人，移送那麼多，起訴那麼多，法官壓力那麼大，弄到最後詐騙的一枝獨大。","所以有關改革，我們也不用你笑我，我笑你，要務實來面對。過去若不是這樣的形體，就沒有臭雞蛋的案子，一個臭雞蛋案，就是不跟你說實話，問他雞蛋從哪裡來的，叫你不用問，問他買多少錢，也叫你不用問，對不對？一個高端疫苗，買多少也叫你不用問，跟誰買的合約書也叫你不用看。說立法權有多大，哪有多大？答應給你看，在秘密會議中的資料全部都塗黑，就像黑矸仔裝醬油，讓你看不出來、無處可看！要看什麼？這都是行政權傲慢之下衍生出來的產物，所以國民黨的提案怎麼會是叫做擴權？調閱權、調查權都可以討論，因為這些權是被限制的嘛。不可以形塑成拿到調查權以後立法委員就大到連衣服都穿不下，沒有那麼大啦！沒有那麼大啦！有很多方法可以規範我們，就算不接受規範或規範不到，最後人民也可以用選票來制裁，所以沒有那種沒有壓力的啦！","我在這裡是要求行政、立法、司法院際之間多一點平等而已，三黨不過半才有這個機會，總統當選人也很客氣，他也表達他願意來立法院報告，這就是可以建立憲政慣例的好時機。至於一問一答、即問即答、統問統答，或者是不予質詢，可以黨團協商、政黨協商嘛，政黨協商、自然而然我個人的看法，對元首給予適度的禮遇是合理的，賴清德今天如果是做市長，我是不能讓他這樣，他有特權，他可以問我，我是想讓他來問我，這樣比較精彩，他當行政院長也是這樣，但是他今天當選總統，我們要建立憲政慣例的時候，就針對這個部分來做政黨協商，大家可以來談要給總統禮遇到什麼程度。既然來到立法院，就沒有道理說，立法院開會時，行政院來報告，如果再要求總統來就沒有辦法，你身為秘書長，我問你，立法院有辦法接受這個業務嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：沒有問題啦！"],["謝委員龍介：對不對？這很簡單的事情。行政作為都可以承受，總統當選人他也願意來報告，這有什麼好爭議的？所以三黨這個時候應該是建立憲政慣例最好的時機，如果失去這個機會，將變成這屆立法院最大的遺憾。我們應該在這次掌握三黨不過半的時機，總統當選人也表達願意來，立法院的行政程序也可以滿足這個會議的進行、國是報告的進行，所以應該要接受國民黨所提出來的建議。民進黨如果有意見，沒關係，我們在政黨協商的時候，大家充分溝通。謝謝。"],["周秘書長萬來：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝謝委員，謝謝秘書長。","接下來有請吳召委宗憲委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":532,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-14","speakers":["鍾佳濱","林思銘","吳思瑤","柯建銘","謝衣鳯","羅智強","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","陳俊宇","吳宗憲","沈伯洋","翁曉玲","黃國昌","謝龍介"],"page_start":479,"meetingDate":["2024-04-18"],"gazette_id":"1133101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133101_00013"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、民進黨黨團擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案；二、委員呂玉玲等17人擬\n具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一條文修正草案」案；三、委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「立法院職\n權行使法增訂第二十八條之三及第二十八條之四條文草案」案；四、委員鄭天財 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文一答、接文接答、同文同答﹐那才是規矩順。黨團協商、政黨協商、政黨協商主連、理連。當然我個人的看法,對元首、解釋度的內務,這合理,若清廷今天做市長我是不會當法院的,我問你,你問我。"},{"start":450.762,"end":454.263,"text":"議員呂玲等17人擬具:「立法院職權行使法第十五條之三及第二十八條之四條文"},{"start":472.213,"end":477.777,"text":"立法院：沒有那個說法規範：鄉長他若來報告還要求總統來報告：立法院若報告接受這個業務嗎?沒有問題啦。這很簡單的事情,鄉長作為都可以承受,總統鄧酸林若願意來報告,"},{"start":495.268,"end":501.656,"text":"這有什麼可以爭取的?所以三黨這個時候就是應該在建立憲政管理最好的時機,失去這個機會了,對啦。是這次在法院會變成最大的危險。"},{"start":509.963,"end":520.008,"text":"我們應該在今晚的將合這個三黨無過半,總統好選人若願意表達安捏,立法院的行政庭是可以滿足這個會議的進行,各司法局的進行。所以應該要接受國民黨所提出來這。那麼民進黨有意見,沒關係,我們來政黨合相的時候,大家充分的溝通。"},{"start":538.279,"end":538.319,"text":"謝謝我們謝委員、謝謝祕書長"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}