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09:53:56","會議時間":"2024-04-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國家運輸安全調查委員會主任委員林信得列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算關於國家運輸安全調查委員會預算凍結案計6案。）","gazette":{"lineno":315,"blocks":[["許委員智傑：（9時44分）謝謝主席，我們請主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["林主任委員信得：委員好。"],["許委員智傑：主委，我們運安會重點是事後調查，對不對？"],["林主任委員信得：對。"],["許委員智傑：那防範未然呢？"],["林主任委員信得：是。"],["許委員智傑：這是不是運安會的工作？"],["林主任委員信得：是。"],["許委員智傑：其實運安會應該是當所有運輸單位的顧問，對不對？也就是所有運輸單位，它可能發生什麼問題，或者是它已經發生什麼問題，剛才昆澤委員也有提到，以前你們要求他們要改善的，現在改善了沒？比如說，包括普悠瑪、包括太魯閣，你們都有要求改善，現在那個報告都已經做完了嗎？"],["林主任委員信得：你說太魯閣嗎？"],["許委員智傑：普悠瑪跟太魯閣。"],["林主任委員信得：普悠瑪那個都結案了！"],["許委員智傑：都結案了。"],["林主任委員信得：對！對！對！"],["許委員智傑：太魯閣結案了沒？"],["林主任委員信得：結案了。"],["許委員智傑：都結案了？"],["林主任委員信得：是。"],["許委員智傑：結案之後你們有提出立即改善的安全議題，對不對？"],["林主任委員信得：有！有！有！這個有追蹤，我們請……"],["許委員智傑：現在改善了沒？"],["林主任委員信得：我請吳組長說明太魯閣的改善進度。"],["吳組長吉村：跟委員報告，有關臺鐵太魯閣，目前給的改善建議，其中只剩一項臺鐵還沒有完成，其他的部分臺鐵都已經完成。"],["許委員智傑：也就是說，你今天就發生事故的原因，然後你們也提出改善的要求，他們也都改善了，現在剩下一點未完成？"],["吳組長吉村：報告委員，是的。"],["許委員智傑：還有哪一點沒改善？"],["吳組長吉村：目前是有關於沿線增設異物入侵告警系統的部分，臺鐵局目前正在施作當中，所以我們確定它在沿線經評估要裝設異物入侵告警系統完成之後，這個案子就會結案。"],["許委員智傑：什麼時候會完成，你知道嗎？"],["吳組長吉村：臺鐵規劃是在今年的年底，目前是它提出來這個計畫。"],["許委員智傑：今年年底，好。我們從邏輯來思考，以前發生過的問題，跟你們提出要求改善的問題，未來這些問題都已經被排除掉了，不會再有重複的原因再發生問題，對不對？"],["吳組長吉村：報告委員，是。"],["許委員智傑：好，OK。未來有其他沒有發生過的問題發生、不可控或不知道，他們要去先做研究，預防再次的發生，除了這個比較特別的，像現在已經發生過的、類似的案件，以後我們應要求不再發生，對不對？"],["吳組長吉村：報告委員，是。"],["許委員智傑：好，從你們的專業的角度去看他們改善的進度，你們也要去qualify，就是有沒有確實完成你們的要求，我想這個是最重要的，這叫做防範未然，你們所做的事後調查是很重要的工作，但是事後調查之後，要求改善、提出改善的建議，甚至還要去看他們這些改善的建議是不是有照你建議的完成，這個部分請你們也要用你們的專業去協助，這樣子沒問題嗎？"],["吳組長吉村：報告委員，沒有問題。"],["許委員智傑：好，我再請教一下，現在捷運也有很多的狀況，對不對？像之前臺中市的吊臂事件，或者是桃園機場捷運C型鋼條那邊有東西掉落，所以現在軌道上面或者是軌道上方有任何的異物，他們都可以偵測得到嗎？"],["吳組長吉村：報告委員，捷運的部分，針對於高空異物入侵的部分目前是沒有偵測的機制，目前我們調查的結果是這樣子。"],["許委員智傑：那要怎麼改善？"],["吳組長吉村：報告委員，就中捷案的部分，因為中捷案目前還沒有結案，未來我們會在報告裡面針對於捷運沿線有所謂的高空危險作業，這個部分我們會提出相關的改善建議，提供給營運機關還有相關監理機關去做參考。"],["許委員智傑：所以在軌道上的是可以偵測到的，對不對？在軌道上方現在還不行；在軌道上的，現在是可以偵測得到？"],["吳組長吉村：掉進軌道裡面的東西，是可以藉由現在的異物偵測系統去偵測到。"],["許委員智傑：你們提出的改善建議裡面，有沒有包括只要偵測到它就可以自動停駛？"],["吳組長吉村：報告委員，以中捷來講，它目前的異物偵測是只要列車撞到異物，它就會自動產生緊急煞車停駛，這個是目前現有的。至於中捷案，因為目前還沒有結案，所以相關的改善建議，可能……"],["許委員智傑：臺中捷運看到吊臂也沒有馬上停駛啊！"],["吳組長吉村：沒有，因為這是所謂高空作業的異物入侵，所以它目前是沒有這個機制。"],["許委員智傑：所以現在在軌道上只要偵測到它就可以自動停駛，是不是？"],["吳組長吉村：必須要列車撞擊到這個異物，它才有辦法停止。"],["許委員智傑：撞擊都已經翻車了。","主委，這樣的回答你滿意嗎？"],["林主任委員信得：因為我們是調查單位，我們不是軌道系統的目的事業主管機關，我們的建議是，譬如剛剛講到臺鐵的部分，他們編預算要時間，中捷也是一樣。"],["許委員智傑：當然，當然，我的意思就是因為它是目的事業主管機關，要負責安全，這個是它必要的工作，我的意思就是你們運安會早期的觀念是事後調查。"],["林主任委員信得：是。"],["許委員智傑：事後調查就會提出改善建議，改善建議就要去看改善進度，改善完成以後才不會再次發生，這叫防範未然。"],["林主任委員信得：對。"],["許委員智傑：所以你們的改善建議要很具體，他們才能做得具體，未來才不會有相同的事情、類似的案件再一次發生危險，這樣你們可以接受嗎？"],["林主任委員信得：可以，如果改善是屬於比較長期的、要編預算的，我們會繼續列管，直到他改善為止，我們會幫行政院去把關。"],["許委員智傑：都要啊，不編預算的也要看啊。"],["林主任委員信得：當然。"],["許委員智傑：現在就是我們很清楚的給運安會一個功能或一個責任，也就是說你們只要提出改善建議的議題，就要持續追蹤，我們要看看它改善的進度，就像剛剛我提到的異物入侵，剛剛你們的組長說年底會改善，對不對？那你們要去看到底有沒有改善，要不然以後再發生事故怎麼辦？"],["林主任委員信得：是。"],["許委員智傑：事故發生再調查就完蛋了。"],["林主任委員信得：對。"],["許委員智傑：我們要的是防患未然，所以我希望運安會要把這一個職責擔下來，如果你發現它沒有如期完成，我們在這邊問，你就可以講，我們還是要去要求目的事業主管機關，這樣好不好？"],["林主任委員信得：事實上改善建議就是為了防患未然，那我們會……"],["許委員智傑：改善建議要追蹤進度到完成。"],["林主任委員信得：對，沒有錯，我們會做。"],["許委員智傑：我的意思是這樣，改善建議提出來之後，不是就沒事了喔。"],["林主任委員信得：不會，不會。"],["許委員智傑：你要追蹤進度到完成，這沒問題？"],["林主任委員信得：行政院定期會開會，我們會跟行政院報告。"],["許委員智傑：OK。"],["林主任委員信得：沒問題。"],["許委員智傑：我的意思就是，前面已經發生事故的原因，你們發現之後提出改善建議，在改善完成之後，相同的原因就不應該再造成一次悲劇，對不對？"],["林主任委員信得：應該是這樣。"],["許委員智傑：好，那你們要把這個職責擔下來。"],["林主任委員信得：因為它照我們的改善建議列出計畫之後，我們會……"],["許委員智傑：我知道你的意思，你就說一句話，說OK就好了。"],["主席：許委員講的，要你建議他們改進以後，你們要去追蹤有沒有做。"],["林主任委員信得：我們一定追蹤。"],["主席：他主要是這樣。"],["許委員智傑：對啊，你就追蹤，它有做你就完成，它沒做，你要繼續追蹤。"],["主席：沒錯。"],["許委員智傑：你繼續追蹤它都不做，你要讓我們知道，我們再去追蹤該單位。"],["林主任委員信得：對，繼續追蹤到它改善為止。"],["許委員智傑：好，沒問題？"],["林主任委員信得：沒問題。"],["許委員智傑：我們希望你們最大的功能就是維護我們的安全，而不是事故之後才調查，這對我們來講都是悲劇了啊。"],["林主任委員信得：是，是，是，謝謝委員。"],["許委員智傑：防患未然很重要，希望運安會把這個責任擔下來。"],["林主任委員信得：謝謝。"],["許委員智傑：OK嗎？"],["林主任委員信得：可以。"],["主席：謝謝許智傑委員。","接下來請徐富癸委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":176,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-8","speakers":["陳雪生","李昆澤","林國成","許智傑","徐富癸","何欣純","魯明哲","陳素月","林俊憲","林沛祥","廖先翔","蔡其昌","邱若華","游顥","林倩綺","洪孟楷","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","羅智強","張啓楷","黃健豪","黃仁"],"page_start":123,"meetingDate":["2024-04-22"],"gazette_id":"1133201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國家運輸安全調查委員會主任委員林信得列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查 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我的意思是這個改善建立提出來之後不是就沒事了你要追蹤進度到完成這沒問題啊我們因為我們常常行政院定期會開會我們會跟他報那我的意思就是說以前面已經發生過事故的原因你們發現之後改善建立之後進度完成之後相同的原因就不應該再發生再一次的悲劇嘛對不對應該是這樣子那你們要把這個職責擔下來"},{"start":544.294,"end":569.395,"text":"因為他在我們的改善信息之後,他的記錄列出來說我會...我知道你的意思,你都不跟你說一句話說OK就好了。習委員講的要你建議他們改進了,你們要去追蹤有沒有做,他主要是這樣。對啊,你就追蹤他有做你就完成,他沒做你要繼續追蹤嘛。你繼續追蹤他都不做,你要讓我們知道嘛,我們繼續追蹤該單位嘛。繼續追蹤到他改善為止,對。"},{"start":572.077,"end":573.058,"text":"謝謝許智傑委員"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}