{"error":false,"id":["151517"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":151517,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151517","日期":"2024-04-22","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-20-10","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":10,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[20],"委員會代碼:str":["財政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-04-22T09:55:26+08:00","結束時間":"2024-04-22T10:06:01+08:00","影片長度":"00:10:35","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5754819b6179c3369caa3923bb0f1a267dee175bc8e0be1adcb4691eb09bf4e2e76c662ebc5f4a645ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳秉叡","委員發言時間":"09:55:26 - 10:06:01","會議時間":"2024-04-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查「娛樂稅法」6案：\n(一)\t本院委員徐富癸等17人、委員陳秀寳等18人、委員羅明才等19人、委員王世堅等23人分別擬具「娛樂稅法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」等4案。【本院委員王世堅等23人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n(二)\t本院委員黃捷等19人、委員羅明才等16人分別擬廢止「娛樂稅法」等2案。【本院委員羅明才等16人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n二、審查「保險法」4案：\n(一)\t本院委員羅明才等17人擬具「保險法第一百四十六條之四條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團、委員蔡易餘等19人、委員王鴻薇等16人分別擬具「保險法第一百七十七條條文修正草案」等3案。【本院台灣民眾黨黨團提案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n三、審查人民請願案有關「娛樂稅法」3案。\n【4月22日及24日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":237,"blocks":[["吳委員秉叡：（9時55分）主席，麻煩請財政部莊部長。"],["主席：請莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["吳委員秉叡：部長好。今天各個委員還有黨團提出娛樂稅法，這個娛樂稅法因為是地方稅，所以它的稽徵單位應該是各地稅捐稽徵處，而不是國稅局吧？"],["莊部長翠雲：是的。"],["吳委員秉叡：如果這樣的話，就是因為法令是中央制定，所以才會來談這個問題。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：可是這有一個觀念，中央政府跟地方政府是夥伴關係，其實地方政府也有立法機關，就是他們的議會，那何不考量乾脆就在這裡把稅捐稽徵法規定，每一個地方政府、縣市層級他們可以自行來決定，當然那個稅目部分的調整、考量，不然你看那麼多地方政府的財政單位首長來到這個地方，然後每一個地方的狀況又不一樣，大家的意見不見得能夠完全一致相同。我舉一個例子，有幾個縣市是沒有高爾夫球場的，因為談高爾夫球場是不是要排除在娛樂稅的範圍內，那沒有高爾夫球場的就不干他的事啊！有高爾夫球場的，像我們新北市可能就不見得會贊成，或許他有他自己的考量也不一定。不過，既然中央政府跟地方政府是夥伴關係，那地方政府因地制宜，他有他適當的考量，這應該是一個合理的規劃啊！你覺得呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，委員說得很是，娛樂稅是屬於地方稅，我們娛樂稅法裡面有規定，像第二條有相關的課稅項目，第五條也有稅率的上限，我們也知道，隨著社會經濟的發展跟娛樂活動的多元化，我們當然也要考慮。所以這個部分，財政部也邀請地方政府來開會，第一個，他們的意見是不宜廢止，因為這是他們地方很重要的一個財源，尤其在縣裡面是鄉鎮收的都歸鄉鎮，那對他們來說是一個重要財源，所以不宜廢止。第二個部分，項目可以做一些調整，因為社會經濟的演變，所以可以做調整。再者，稅率的上限也可以做調整，因為事實上，他們實質都沒有課到那麼高。"],["吳委員秉叡：問題是可以調整，你調整考慮了17年也沒調整啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：是。另外就是剛剛委員也提到，我們這次也考慮到是不是可以賦予地方政府一個權，也就是說，他們因為自己的政策目的，或以他們的經濟發展，他可以對某一些項目做停徵；我想這個部分大概有三個方向，但是還沒有到完全一致啦！因為項目跟稅率的部分，地方政府也還沒有一個更高的共識，所以關於這個部分，我們會繼續跟他們討論，謀取一個共識。"],["吳委員秉叡：我的意思是說，連項目跟最高稅率都可以讓他們自行考慮，我跟你講，總共才18億，如果依照臺灣現在的政府光六都絕對占大多數，其他縣市都是只有很小、很小的比例，有的縣市可能百萬，甚至整個縣也才千萬，現在大家的意見又不一致，你檢討稅目跟項目，乾脆連稅率都下放嘛！因為金額對中央政府來講小，對地方政府來講，可能他們有他們的考量，那你何不就以夥伴關係來講，只要中央說有一個娛樂稅，你可以訂定，那由地方自己來訂定！如果今天有一個地方政府，我跟你說，現在地方政府的首長都是民選的，你說他把那個稅目，就是稅基增加很多，不可能啦！要把那個稅率拉得很高，事實上也不可能啦！沒有人要跟自己開玩笑啦！誰要跟自己的選票對抗？所以你不用替他擔心這一些啦！我是覺得這件事情與其每一屆立法院，我在這邊財政委員會已經第4屆了，每一屆都吵這個事情，我覺得我們真的不需要管那麼多啊！你就乾脆讓地方政府去決定嘛，地方政府也有立法機關，他們可以立地方的單行法規，我們只要說，依照現在的規定，地方政府可以訂定娛樂稅自己的稅則、自己去管理，徵稅的機關也是稅捐稽徵處，不是你國稅局，也不是你管的啊！所以現在唯一的就是因為你只有管這個法律啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：是啊！"],["吳委員秉叡：但你看你管法令，每一年這麼多位委員，新來的委員都不知道以前我們都談過，這個每一屆都談過，我跟羅明才大概知道每一屆都有談啦，結果每一屆都要一直來、一直來，我覺得這不是辦法，所以我建議你考慮看看啦！"],["莊部長翠雲：好，委員的建議，我們一定納入考量。"],["吳委員秉叡：好，請回座。我們請金管會黃主委。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝。"],["主席：請回。請黃主委。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員早。"],["吳委員秉叡：黃主委，第一個議題就是關於對外國投資比例的限制，其實這些保險公司如果為公司的利益計算，都是以獲利最大的原則，因為它的獲利就是全體保戶的保障，它賺越多錢，全體的保戶越有保障，對不對？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：話說回來，不得不的困難就是在臺灣的債券市場、臺灣的投資市場，在早年的時候到現在的演變，使得我們龐大的資金，臺灣的資本投資市場沒有辦法整個把它消化掉。"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：你認為我們臺灣長天期的債券，為什麼在臺灣這麼不風行呢？"],["黃主任委員天牧：其實現在發行的部分，大部分被幾家金融機構都買了，而且買了之後就持有到到期，也沒有什麼交易。"],["吳委員秉叡：最主要原因是因為不夠大，譬如說政府債券，可能總共金額才發行了2,000億、3,000億，當然一出來就被買光了，因為你的資金是算多少兆的啊！有沒有可能除了政府的公債之外，我說的長天期債券也不一定是只有政府公債，非常優質、非常好的公司發行長天期債券也是有，外國也是有啊！那為什麼我們臺灣這部分不風行呢？是我們債券的發行，證期局那邊控管得太嚴嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：其實臺灣跟美國來講，很大的差別是美國以直接金融為主。"],["吳委員秉叡：是。"],["黃主任委員天牧：臺灣大概通常用銀行貸款就解決公司的資金需求，當然有一點是跟財政部有關係，但是我們並沒有多提，因為財政部對公債有一個比例，而且通常是以財政目的去發，可是不同的政府有時候不是以財政目的發，它就是不斷地在發，這也是一種方式，但是我們尊重財政部它有它的政策。"],["吳委員秉叡：我知道啊！因為臺灣就是希望穩定，CPI不要高。"],["黃主任委員天牧：對。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以通常不能高，像美國那樣的國家，動不動CPI有時候都好幾%，所以它發行了長天期債券來講，長天期發行如果遇到幾次通膨，它發行的債券對它來講是很有利啊！"],["黃主任委員天牧：對。"],["吳委員秉叡：因為通膨會把那個獲利吃掉嘛！"],["黃主任委員天牧：它就是美元……"],["吳委員秉叡：是啊！另外就是臺灣中央銀行也好，政府也好，很努力在控制物價。"],["黃主任委員天牧：對。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以我們的CPI通常都是控制在2%左右。"],["黃主任委員天牧：也不希望借款太多。"],["吳委員秉叡：對，所以我們的債券市場就變得不活潑。可是你要知道，回過頭來講，有利就有弊，在外國的投資避險成本就變得很高，像去年壽險的部分，光避險成本一年就花掉臺灣3,700億元。"],["黃主任委員天牧：這就是過去這幾年都在替業者解決這個問題，這的確是得失之間的兩面。"],["吳委員秉叡：這本來就是在走平衡的鋼索。"],["黃主任委員天牧：對。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以考慮另外一個點，如果現在突然之間把法令降下來，他投資的是長天期的債券，你是不是逼他必須要把長天期賣掉，那當然會蒙受重大的損失，這也是一個一個大的問題，那麼多資金回來臺灣，臺幣會變強、會升值，全世界美金已經過度強勢，臺幣還要比美金更強勢，那對我們的外銷產業來講會是非常重大的打擊，所以這個是牽一髮動全身。"],["黃主任委員天牧：是，所以我們在報告中有說明我們的關切。"],["吳委員秉叡：第二個問題就是關於第一百七十七條，因為過去界定這部分到底是僱傭，還是委任、還是承攬，甚至是居間，在大法官會議解釋裡面說這四種都有可能，它都有不同的型態，如果全部把它強制變成是僱傭，會有什麼樣的缺點？"],["黃主任委員天牧：當然對業者來講，僱傭的要求，對業務員來講，彈性可能會變得比較少，當然這裡面成本上，僱傭也許對一些業務員本身的福利、保險可能有一些要求，這也是牽一髮而動全身。"],["吳委員秉叡：就變成不靈活啦！"],["黃主任委員天牧：對。"],["吳委員秉叡：因為有一些保險，可能幾個人組成經紀人公司或什麼東西，現在這些業務員全部都要變成僱傭。大法官760號解釋本身就說這是僱傭、委任、承攬還是居間，要視他們簽訂的契約，依每一個契約認定，如果你已經被認定為僱傭，當然就有勞動基準法的適用。"],["黃主任委員天牧：是，沒錯。"],["吳委員秉叡：但是如果你的契約被定義為居間、委任或是承攬，他當然就不適用勞動基準法。最後的解決機關是法院，法院會決定這件事情，所以這個也是牽一髮而動全身。今天這個法案都茲事體大，沒有一件是小事，所以要慎重以對……"],["黃主任委員天牧：以前也在財委會討論過很多次。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以在這個地方想謝謝你很穩健的努力，我們繼續努力。謝謝。"],["黃主任委員天牧：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。接著請賴士葆委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":122,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-10","speakers":["羅明才","王世堅","徐富癸","王鴻薇","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李坤城","李彥秀","顏寬恒","賴惠員","黃珊珊","陳玉珍","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","黃國昌","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":53,"meetingDate":["2024-04-22"],"gazette_id":"1133201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查「娛樂稅法」6案：(一)本院委員徐富癸等17人、委員陳秀寳等18人、委員羅明才等19\n人、委員王世堅等23人分別擬具「娛樂稅法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」等 4案、(二)本院委\n員黃捷等19 人、委員羅明才等16 人分別擬廢止「娛樂稅法」等 2 案；二、審查「保險法」 4 案：\n(一)本院委員羅明才等17人擬具「保險法第一百四十六條之四條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員\n蔡易餘等 19 人、委員王鴻薇等 16 人分別擬具「保險法第一百七十七條條文修正草案」等 2 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