{"error":false,"id":["151529"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":151529,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151529","日期":"2024-04-22","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-20-10","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":10,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[20],"委員會代碼:str":["財政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-04-22T10:19:59+08:00","結束時間":"2024-04-22T10:35:26+08:00","影片長度":"00:15:27","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5754819b6179c33688571ab13c4d145c7dee175bc8e0be1adcb4691eb09bf4e2630fbb5eb73e020a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王世堅","委員發言時間":"10:19:59 - 10:35:26","會議時間":"2024-04-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查「娛樂稅法」6案：\n(一)\t本院委員徐富癸等17人、委員陳秀寳等18人、委員羅明才等19人、委員王世堅等23人分別擬具「娛樂稅法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」等4案。【本院委員王世堅等23人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n(二)\t本院委員黃捷等19人、委員羅明才等16人分別擬廢止「娛樂稅法」等2案。【本院委員羅明才等16人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n二、審查「保險法」4案：\n(一)\t本院委員羅明才等17人擬具「保險法第一百四十六條之四條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團、委員蔡易餘等19人、委員王鴻薇等16人分別擬具「保險法第一百七十七條條文修正草案」等3案。【本院台灣民眾黨黨團提案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n三、審查人民請願案有關「娛樂稅法」3案。\n【4月22日及24日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":388,"blocks":[["王委員世堅：（10時20分）謝謝主席，我請財政部莊部長。"],["主席：請莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["王委員世堅：部長，我今天很驚喜地發現你為什麼能夠續任財政部長，其實這個是好事啦！我發現你在答復針對娛樂稅要刪除的這個部分，我看到你的態度。那麼就我的態度，要是過去，我就會送你一個十字架，這個十字架橫批就是稅收，直批就是國產，那你所有答復還有你的肢體語言，就是說誰都休想搶走十字架，你是這樣子的心態。那這是對的，這是好事喔！我認為我們國家有你這樣子能夠守住我們國產，這樣的好部長是正面的啦！這是國家有幸。","不過，這個十字架上面──稅收，十字架上面的一些污點你總是要把它去掉，比方說娛樂稅不是嗎？這些不合時宜的稅制，剛才講過好多它的不合時宜，比方說娛樂稅，我再講一些它荒唐的地方，現在我們民間為了避這些娛樂稅，因為太繁複了，這很莫名其妙的，我舉幾個例子，「有樂團的餐酒館」要課娛樂稅，他們就把它改成「播音樂的餐廳」；「脫口秀」表演的地方，把它改成叫做「好笑的演講」，這個都很奇怪，改了名字喔！脫口秀要課娛樂稅，好笑的演講不必；好，「夾娃娃機」要娛樂稅，他們改成「選物販賣機」，不用，你看你上有政策，民眾下有對策，日月潭的遊艇，這個是娛樂設施，你把它課娛樂稅；我們臺鐵的觀光列車還不必，臺鐵的觀光列車我們說這個是交通工具，所以不必娛樂稅，觀光都寫上去了喔！你看看，所以我認為這樣子是已經到了荒唐的地步。","而且你講的總金額其實不大，我們一再講嘛！16億到18億，你說這個是地方他們重要的稅收，全國22縣市，這16到18億平均下來大概都不到1億元，但是為了徵收，他們要耗費大筆的人力資源，所以對他們是很傷腦筋啊！16到18億對中央政府而言，如果中央政府這麼體恤地方政府的話，大筆一揮，我們的補助款隨便幾筆、隨便一揮都不止16到18億，而且是總額喔！所以我認為這個部分，部長，是不是你要特別思考一下，為什麼我們說要趕快推動綠色的稅制改革？你提到高爾夫球場耗費到環境能源，這是事實、這是事實，所以我們認為高爾夫球場應該廢娛樂稅，然後我們另外加徵新的綠色稅制，比方說能源稅，比方說環境稅，這才符合嘛！你看奧運，奧運會所有運動項目裡面，只有高爾夫在全世界被我們臺灣、我們國家的政府來課徵娛樂稅，這就是很荒唐的事情。那推動綠色稅制，就你講的嘛！替代財源多了，很多我們可以來找嘛！比方說交通部課汽燃稅隨車徵收這些，還有財政部的汽機車貨物稅這些都應該，以及環境部空污費、土壤污染費等等這些都是嘛！我們應該用另外一個方式，財政部應該主動找這幾個部會來商量一下，可不可以？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，謝謝委員的指教。我想第一個就是，我們的稅當然是要與時俱進，娛樂稅這個部分如同剛剛委員所提的，有一些項目或稅率或稽徵成本都應該考慮，所以今天我們的書面報告也提出了不廢止，然後接下來項目考慮、稅率上限往下調整，以及賦予地方政府權限，讓它可以去做停徵。其實我們知道有些相關的法律也有一些補助，像文化藝術促進條例裡面對文化工作者也有表列。至於委員所提的綠色稅制這個部分，我們現在其實也在蒐集國際間相關稅的部分，我們都一直在蒐集資料，未來會在整體政策裡面去研議有關綠色稅制，而綠色稅制當然要涵蓋許多的稅目。"],["王委員世堅：部長，娛樂稅這個問題談了不下20年啦，光17年前民國96年，當時立法院就做了這個附帶決議，即一年內要廢除娛樂稅，結果97年立院改選了，之後財政部又不當一回事了。所以我剛剛就問你啊，我剛剛說17年來財政部針對娛樂稅該廢止做了哪些努力？沒有嘛！你不廢止，你說因為難尋找替代財源，這個替代財源到現在找了17年，一個才不到20億的娛樂稅，找了17年還找不到，這很怪嘛！","至於我剛剛在提案說明裡面提到文創，文創更是無辜，現在這整個產業的GDP占全國4.8%，從業的工作人員達到2.4%，政府一方面鼓勵文創，也設了文策院，也給大筆資金來補助戲劇、電影，這都是正面的，結果一方面補助，另外一方面卻來跟它課稅，這很奇怪嘛，一手補助，另外一隻手來把錢拿走，這很奇怪啦！基本上就違背了政府一開始的美意。部長，所以我覺得這個部分，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["王委員世堅：你除了身上揹著十字架以外，你要用開放的心來看待時代的進步，十字架上面難免會有一些污穢的地方，該把它去除掉的要去除，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：好，謝謝委員的期許。"],["王委員世堅：好。時間暫停，你先請回。","主席，我請金管會黃主委。"],["主席：請黃主委。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員好。"],["王委員世堅：這本來不是我的提案，但是你剛剛提到的，剛好有幾件觸發了我先前有在質詢的，就是現在我們立院這個提案，要把壽險海外投資比例45%降到25%的這個部分，你有提到不肯的原因，你說因為現在海外利率比較高，壽險業如果現在馬上撤回將近10兆元的資金，一方面我們國內也沒有那麼多高利率的投資；二方面，這個會導致我們國內利率的變動等等，你講的都是事實。但是有關海外投資，第一點，先前踩雷不暴險的也非常多，就在去年，富邦不是一腳踏入？在海外投資的部分有匯率的風險、有戰爭的風險，去年富邦不是一腳踏入俄國戰爭，這件事情歷歷在目，所以也不盡然那麼大的金額全部在海外就是對的，但是應該下降多少、要多少時間慢慢來引導，確實是要從長計議。","第二點就是，這些壽險業投資在我們國內公共建設的比例過低，我長年一直呼籲壽險資金應該大量地來投入我們的公共建設，比方說我們現在各縣市如臺北、臺中、高雄、新北都在推動的捷運建設，不但中央政府挹注，地方政府也有配合款以外，未來捷運成形之後，營運是日日見財，每天收乘客繳的運費，這是一個很好的還款來源。臺北市光一天就有220萬人次的營運，其他各縣市捷運的營運也是都有起色，這是一項非常好的公共建設，足以讓壽險業來投資，結果壽險業沒有投資啊，這幾年壽險業到海外四處去投資，只要高利率的它都去。結果投入我們的公共建設，你看，從2019年到2022年，本來平均都還有300億，到2023年（去年）雪崩式下滑，壽險業投資本國公共建設只剩下112億。主委，你很清楚嘛，109年到現在，壽險業每一年可運用的資金，從28兆、30兆、31兆，都大概維持在30兆左右，投入公共建設的比例占0.11%，去年如果只有112億的話，是占0.03%、萬分之三，等於不把我們國內的公共建設當一回事，它不把政府對他們的呼籲、引導當一回事嘛，不是這樣嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，其實如果有您剛剛講的，如捷運這些好的、有現金流量的，我想壽險業應該都會去，我們覺得現在應該是案源的問題，如果公共建設都有開放給保險業，保險業當然不會拒絕的，現在是案源的問題。"],["王委員世堅：都有。我光講臺北市現在正進行這三條非常重要的南環、北環、東環段，光工資上漲、物料上漲就差額440億，440億對壽險資金而言，那也是九牛一毛。"],["黃主任委員天牧：可是問題是現在這些工程的發包單位都是寧可用編預算，它沒有同意保險公司去投資，我跟委員報告，2016年，我當時就跟行政院建議第三航站可不可以讓保險公司去進行。"],["王委員世堅：2016年你有建議過？"],["黃主任委員天牧：當時我有提醒行政院，我說第三航站需要錢，可不可以讓保險業……因為航站它有收費，像這種有收費的……"],["王委員世堅：對啊！航站就是一個很好的例子。"],["黃主任委員天牧：我覺得重點就是，國內公共建設是不是可以開放給保險業投資？這個很重要。"],["王委員世堅：當然啊……"],["黃主任委員天牧：可是大家都是用編預算來做。"],["王委員世堅：現在希望壽險資金可以大量回來投資我們本國的公共建設，這是我們需要的嘛，公共建設晚一天，社會成本就增加一天。"],["黃主任委員天牧：是，我們一直在努力。"],["王委員世堅：不好意思，主席，我最後再一句就好。我最後再提醒你一句，這些壽險業，你剛剛說海外資金利率高，所以它去那邊，我認為它不盡然是為了保戶，它跟保戶計算有多少可以讓保戶分紅，它是以我們國內的利率來算的，每一個保險都是，然後它自己要賺錢的部分，賺他們營運階層錢的、賺公司錢的，它自己就想辦法到海外去，如果今天它賺的，它說有多少比例要投資到國外這些高利率的地方，以這個來跟保戶計算，那我們沒話講；但它跟保戶算的，都是以我們國內利率為準，在國內講一套，然後把資金拿到國外去，而且國外除了高利率以外，就像我剛剛講的還會有一些暴險的因素，有匯率，現在還有戰爭等等因素，不是嗎？賺，保險公司要賺；賠，用我們所有的保戶存款、保險大眾來賠你們大家，它是這樣的心態嗎？你回去要他們檢討一下，好不好？謝謝。"],["黃主任委員天牧：是，謝謝委員指導。"],["王委員世堅：謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝。接著請郭國文郭召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":122,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-10","speakers":["羅明才","王世堅","徐富癸","王鴻薇","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李坤城","李彥秀","顏寬恒","賴惠員","黃珊珊","陳玉珍","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","黃國昌","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":53,"meetingDate":["2024-04-22"],"gazette_id":"1133201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查「娛樂稅法」6案：(一)本院委員徐富癸等17人、委員陳秀寳等18人、委員羅明才等19\n人、委員王世堅等23人分別擬具「娛樂稅法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」等 4案、(二)本院委\n員黃捷等19 人、委員羅明才等16 人分別擬廢止「娛樂稅法」等 2 案；二、審查「保險法」 4 案：\n(一)本院委員羅明才等17人擬具「保險法第一百四十六條之四條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員\n蔡易餘等 19 人、委員王鴻薇等 16 人分別擬具「保險法第一百七十七條條文修正草案」等 2 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你上有政策民眾下有對策日月潭的遊艇 啊呀這個是娛樂設施你把它課娛樂稅欸 我們台鐵的觀光列車還不必台鐵的觀光列車我們說這個是交通工具所以不必娛樂稅觀光都寫上去了喔你看看"},{"start":165.193,"end":193.304,"text":"所以我認為這樣子是已經到了荒唐的地步而且你講的總金額其實不大我們一再講16億到18億那你說這個是地方他們重要的稅收全國22縣市這16到18億平均下來大概都不到1億元但是為了徵收他們要耗費大筆的人力資源"},{"start":194.793,"end":219.315,"text":"所以對他們說很傷腦筋啊16到18億對我們中央政府的我如果我們中央政府這麼體恤地方政府的話大筆一揮嘛我們的補助款隨便幾筆隨便一揮都不止16到18億而且是總額喔總額所以我認為這一個部分那個部長是不是你要特別"},{"start":220.196,"end":243.046,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":243.326,"end":261.787,"text":"新的綠色稅制比方說能源稅、環境稅這才符合嘛你看喔在奧運會所有運動項目裡面只有高爾夫在全世界被我們台灣我們國家的政府來苛徵娛樂稅"},{"start":265.579,"end":281.764,"text":"這是很荒唐的事情啊那推動綠色稅制就你講的嘛欸替代財源多啦很多我們可以來找的嘛比如說我們交通部課這個棄燃稅、隨車徵收這一些還有我們"},{"start":283.144,"end":301.15,"text":"財政部的汽機車貨物稅這些都應該環境署空污費那個環境部空污費土壤污染費等等這些都是事嘛我們應該另外一個方式財政部應該主動找我們這幾個部會來商量一下可不可以"},{"start":302.824,"end":305.766,"text":"謝謝委員的指教我想第一個就是我們的稅當然是要與時俱進那娛樂稅這個部分當然如同剛剛委員所提的有一些項目啦或者是稅率啦或者基增成本都應該考慮所以我們今天也提出我們的書面報告也提出了不廢紙的"},{"start":321.679,"end":333.547,"text":"不廢止然後接下來項目考慮稅率的上限往下調整以及賦予地方政府的一個權限他可以去做停徵其實我們知道其實有相關的一些法律也有一些補助我們知道像文化藝術創新條例裡面對文化工作有表率"},{"start":337.969,"end":353.775,"text":"於委員所提的綠色稅制這個部分確實是未來我們這個部分我們其實現在也在收集國際間這樣的一個相關的稅的部分我們都一直在收集之外我們未來會在整個整體政策裡面去研議有關綠色的稅制那綠色稅制當然要涵蓋娛樂稅這個問題啊"},{"start":358.156,"end":379.656,"text":"談了不下20年啦光17年前民國96年當時立法院做的決議這個附帶決議就是說一年內要廢除娛樂稅結果97年立院改選啊那之後財政部又不當一回事啦所以就我剛剛就問你啊"},{"start":380.595,"end":398.428,"text":"我剛剛說17年來呀我們財政部做了哪一些努力針對娛樂稅該廢止沒有嘛你不廢止你說因為難尋找替代財源那這個替代財源到現在找了17年啦一個才不到20億的那個娛樂稅找了17年還找不到"},{"start":410.42,"end":438.587,"text":"這很怪嘛那至於我剛剛在提案說明裡面說文創也那文創更是無辜嘛文創現在這整個產業的GDP占我們全國4.8%欸從業的工作人員達到2.4%我們政府一方面鼓勵文創也設了文策院那也給大筆的資金來補助這些戲劇電影這都正面的啊"},{"start":440.551,"end":444.908,"text":"結果一方面捕捉另外一方面來跟他瞌睡"},{"start":446.468,"end":470.226,"text":"這很奇怪嘛一手補助另外一隻手來把錢拿走這很奇怪啦這基本上就違背政府一開始的美意所以我覺得這一個部分部長好不好你除了身上背的十字架以外那個你要用開放的心來看到時代的進步"},{"start":471.711,"end":472.432,"text":"主席,我請親管會黃主委"},{"start":492.427,"end":519.243,"text":"委員好這本來不是我的提案但是剛好有幾件你剛提到的剛好有幾件觸發了我先前有在質詢的啦就是說現在你針對我們立院現在這個提案要把授權海外投資這個比例45%降到25%齁這個部分那你有提到說不肯的原因你說因為"},{"start":521.121,"end":522.282,"text":"議員王世堅等23人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議須經各黨團簽署不復"},{"start":547.833,"end":564.108,"text":"我們海外投資啊第一點海外投資先前啊這個踩雷不暴險的也非常多啊就在去年啊富邦不是一腳踏入在海外的投資的部分"},{"start":565.679,"end":593.009,"text":"這個部分有匯率的風險有戰爭的風險啊去年富邦不是A角俄國戰爭這件事情歷歷在目所以也不見然全部在海外那麼大的金額就是對的但是應該下降多少要多少時間慢慢來引導這個確實是要從長計議那第二點就是說這些受險業啊"},{"start":594.639,"end":599.853,"text":"投資在我們國內公共建設的比例過低嘛"},{"start":600.97,"end":624.23,"text":"我們長年一直呼籲授選資金應該大量的來投入我們的公共建設。比方說我們現在各縣市臺北、臺中、高雄、新北都在推動的捷運建設。捷運建設不但我們中央政府亦助地方政府也配合款"},{"start":625.091,"end":644.998,"text":"以外,未來捷運成行之後營運那是日日間載,每天收乘客繳的運費,那是很好的一個還款的來源啊。台北是光一天220萬人次。"},{"start":648.987,"end":671.444,"text":"對營運阿其他各縣市其他縣運現在也是營運都起色這是一項非常好的公共建設足以讓受選業來投資結果受選業沒有阿受選業這幾年到海外四處去投資只要高利率高利率的他都去"},{"start":672.926,"end":691.798,"text":"結果投入我們的公共建設你看從2019年到2022年本來平均都還有300億喔到2023年到去年雪崩四下滑受選頁投資我們本國公共建設只剩下112億112億"},{"start":696.704,"end":715.574,"text":"那個主委你很清楚嘛,109年到現在他可每一年他可運用授權力可運用的資金從28兆、30兆、31兆都大概維持在30兆左右。投入公共建設的比例啊,讚!"},{"start":716.494,"end":741.384,"text":"百分之零點一一啦去年如果只有一百一十二億的話是佔百分之零點零三萬分之三等於他不把我們國內的公共建設當一回事他不把政府對他們的呼籲引導當一回事嘛不是這樣嗎"},{"start":743.496,"end":758.766,"text":"報告委員其實如果有您剛才講的捷運這些好的有現金流量我想授權應該都會去現在問題我們覺得應該是愛媛的問題如果公共建設都有開放給保險業保險業當然不會拒絕的現在是愛媛的問題"},{"start":760.387,"end":766.212,"text":"我光講台北市現在正進行這三條非常重要的南環、北環、東環段工資上漲、物料上漲這個就差額440億這個440億在受險資金而已"},{"start":777.561,"end":805.188,"text":"可是問題是現在這些工程的發包單位都是寧可用編預算他們也有同意保險公司去投資我跟委員報告2016我當時就跟行政院建議航站第三航站可不可以由保險公司去進行2016年你有建議過我有提醒當時的行政院有說航站第三航站需要錢可不可以讓保險因為航站它有收那個那個有收費航站就是一個很好的例子啊"},{"start":805.828,"end":806.889,"text":"我最後再提醒你一句齁這些受險業啊"},{"start":833.12,"end":860.697,"text":"你剛剛說海外資金利率高所以人家他去那邊我認為他不盡然是為了保護啦他跟保護講計算能夠多少讓你保護分紅的他是以我們國內的利率來算的每一個保險都是然後他自己要賺錢的賺他們營運階層錢的賺他公司錢的他自己就想辦法到海外去"},{"start":861.761,"end":881.978,"text":"如果他今天賺的,如果他能夠把說我有多少的比例我要投資到國外這些高利率的地方去我以這個來跟保護計算,那我們沒話講他跟我們保護算的都是我們以我們國內利率為準"},{"start":883.619,"end":905.474,"text":"在國內講一套然後把資金拿到國外去而且國外除了高利率以外就我講的還會有一些曝險的因素有匯率啊現在還有戰爭啊等等的因素在不是嗎那賺保險公司要賺賠我們所有的保護存款保險大眾賠來賠你們大家他是這樣的心態嗎"},{"start":910.882,"end":912.144,"text":"郭國文、郭昭瑋"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}