{"error":false,"id":["151537"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":151537,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151537","日期":"2024-04-22","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-23-8","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第8次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":8,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[23],"委員會代碼:str":["交通委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第8次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-04-22T10:50:40+08:00","結束時間":"2024-04-22T10:59:13+08:00","影片長度":"00:08:33","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5754819b6179c336993c721a413e13d0f397fd65b575a832dcb4691eb09bf4e2328f139af069e70d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡其昌","委員發言時間":"10:50:40 - 10:59:13","會議時間":"2024-04-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國家運輸安全調查委員會主任委員林信得列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算關於國家運輸安全調查委員會預算凍結案計6案。）","gazette":{"lineno":652,"blocks":[["蔡委員其昌：（10時50分）謝謝主席，麻煩請運安會林主委。"],["主席：請林主委。"],["林主任委員信得：委員早。"],["蔡委員其昌：主委，我剛剛在辦公室裡看了一下早上的質詢，我覺得這個炮火算猛烈啦，邏輯上我認為今天不應該這麼猛烈，我今天只有短短的5分鐘，有幾個問題我想你可以認真來思考一下，本席可以給你一個建議。","第一個，我們舉一個例子就好，很多委員在探討時間的問題，就是針對每一個運安會需要調查的案子應該給予多少時間才算合理，現行我們把它分級，第一級大概多少時間、第二級多少時間，我們現在是用這種制度，但問題是這個制度、這樣的分級方式是否社會大眾普遍理解？立法院各位委員普遍能夠接受、理解？所以這個所謂的合理性跟它一定程度的透明度恐怕是需要加強。我再對比其他的，我們以中捷這個案子來說就好了，主委，你知道中捷的仲裁，我的印象如果沒有記錯，在去年年底仲裁就已經宣判建設公司要賠臺中市政府多少錢，去年就已經有仲裁結果出來了，今年監察院的調查報告也出來了。主委，我其實很擔心一個情況，我不知道會不會發生啦，就是說，仲裁也在查，因為仲裁要宣判，一定要對事實的本身有一定程度的理解才可以宣判嘛，換言之，在仲裁宣判的時候，那個宣判者對於這件事情的整個前因後果及發生的狀況一定有所心證、一定有所瞭解，因為必須有所瞭解、有所心證才能夠在仲裁上宣判。再來，調查的監察委員也一定跟仲裁委員一樣有一定的心證，這樣他才能夠做出監察院的調查報告。現在問題來了，你們是最後那一個，萬一公布出來跟前面不一樣怎麼辦？主委，你有沒有想過這個問題？剛剛我有聽到你回答說應該你跟監察院是差不多的，如果有一天有一個調查報告出來，你們是不一樣的，請問一下這裡面所有人民的信任、所有可能涉及商務的賠償，到底是誰說的才算數？主委？"],["林主任委員信得：監察院的調查跟我們的方向是一致，可是我們的報告比它細膩……"],["蔡委員其昌：對，監察院沒有調查的部分你們有調查嘛，所以只有一個報告，監察院有調查的部分跟你們也有調查的部分，如果有一天出現不一樣的時候，請問我們該相信誰的？"],["林主任委員信得：因為它拿的resource的資料都一模一樣，不可能會……"],["蔡委員其昌：真的嗎？主委，你這麼有信心喔？"],["林主任委員信得：因為我們跟同一個單位拿的資料都一樣啊！"],["蔡委員其昌：對。"],["林主任委員信得：但是我們的分析角度當然會跟它有所不同……"],["蔡委員其昌：好，沒有關係，主委，這個是你應該回去思考的，因為我只有5分鐘，我其實沒有空跟你在這裡探討啦，我只是提醒你，第一個，有這麼多單位在調查，再來這些單位的source都跟你一樣，但他們的速度卻比你快，因為核心的問題要出來，才可以對這件事情做一個結案或了結嘛，那你跟它不一樣的部分或許不是今天這個事件的問題核心，可是大家會怎麼看運安會？監察院跟你都同樣的source，你們調查出來的結果一樣，監察院為什麼可以速度比你快，你的速度比人家慢？這個叫做合理性的說明啦，就是運安會恐怕要花一點時間，對國會、對社會大眾，就運安會的分級制度及每一級的調查時間是否合理都要被檢視，然後這些調查報告如果不一樣，未來不要產生爭議，在立法院有人拿監察院的報告，有人拿運安會的報告，朝野立委大家又因為這個不同，又吵著說有政治力介入又什麼，我先防患未然，就你們講運安會的每一個報告其實都在防患未然嘛！對不對？我也一樣先在這裡提醒，因為從中捷這個案子就可以知道，第一個，你們速度最慢，人家仲裁也判了，要賠多少錢也判了，然後監察院報告也出來了，哇！慘了，現在只剩運安會，所以難怪大家會質疑嘛！第二個部分，你們所有的報告，每一次運安會的調查都是為了阻止下一個事故的發生，其實報告的精髓就在這裡，也是運安會成立或者在立法院代表民意的立法委員大家最關心的，其實就是這個。","主委，在我的看法上，剛剛你都被白罵了，我告訴大家，運安會對所有的行政機關只要透過調查，認為該改善的部分卻沒有改善，我告訴主委，我如果是主委，這個部長──哪一個部都一樣，準備要下臺，這個是人民生命財產的安全，我運安會作為一個獨立機關，我告訴你，你要立即改善什麼，避免下一個遺憾的事情再發生，我管你部長預算要編幾年，那是你部長的事情，人命關天的事情在你部長的行政作為當中要排第一順位、第二順位、第三順位，那是你行政部門的事，我運安會只負責調查，告訴你缺失在哪裡、你該如何改善，為什麼運安會主委今天站在這裡被立委罵？站在這裡的應該是被你調查出來，今天一大堆的理由，包括預算不足、人力不足、一大堆的不足，「不足」我們就換一個能力好一點的部長，或者局長，或者署長，而不是運安會站在這裡，你是獨立機關，你今天代表的是專業，然後告訴行政機關該怎麼做，讓人民在任何空、陸、海各種運輸上面，只要搭乘，意外我不敢講，但是只要大家按照規矩走，那個意外發生的比例應該可以降到很低，避免下一個遺憾、下一個事故再發生，這個才是大家對運安會的期許。","所以主委，我的意思是要告訴你，不用當媳婦啦！你就很勇敢地告訴大家：你要怎麼做那是行政部門的事情，你做部長沒錢，你要趕快去想辦法，要去行政院爭取，要發揮部長的能力，要不然我們請這麼多部長是要做什麼？就是要叫他們趕快，這是人民性命的問題，要趕快想辦法去處理，然後……主席已經站起來了，譬如說，我不知道你們這樣調查出來之後，如果這裡面涉及……你看很多營建相關的這些工安，我們都會用採購法第一百零一條把他移送，對不對？這些廠商怕得要死，那運安會調查報告一樣要這樣告訴行政機關，或者你們想辦法自己來做處置，就是對於如果像這些運輸事故發生而涉及到施工不良、偷工減料、施工設計不好等等，也應該要這樣做吧！我是不知道現在有沒有啦！我只是舉個例子告訴你，運安會應該要做到這樣，這是人民的信任，這是人民對運安會這個專業單位的信任，所以我們要架構起運安會的權威跟專業，這個才能確保人民的安全，所有的行政機關才會覺得運安會說的，他如果不趕快做，最好他每天去拜拜，不然他準備要下臺了，我告訴你，如果這樣的話，人民就會更安心，是不是這樣，主委？"],["林主任委員信得：是，謝謝。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，時間到了，超過很多了，謝謝主席又多給我2分鐘的時間，謝謝。"],["林主任委員信得：謝謝委員指導，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蔡其昌副院長。","接下來請邱若華委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":176,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-8","speakers":["陳雪生","李昆澤","林國成","許智傑","徐富癸","何欣純","魯明哲","陳素月","林俊憲","林沛祥","廖先翔","蔡其昌","邱若華","游顥","林倩綺","洪孟楷","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","羅智強","張啓楷","黃健豪","黃仁"],"page_start":123,"meetingDate":["2024-04-22"],"gazette_id":"1133201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國家運輸安全調查委員會主任委員林信得列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查 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蔡其昌"},{"start":75.563,"end":99.812,"text":"我們以凍結這個案子就好了所以你知道凍結的仲裁在去年年底我印象如果沒有記錯仲裁就已經宣判這個建設公司要賠台中市政府多少錢去年就已經仲裁結果出來那今年這個監察院的調查報告也出來"},{"start":101.445,"end":124.736,"text":"主委我其實很擔心一個我不知道會不會發生就是說你想仲裁也在查因為要仲裁要宣判他一定要對事實的本身他有一定程度理解他才可以宣判換言之在仲裁宣判的時候那個宣判者他對於這件事情的整個這個前因後果發生的狀況他一定有所"},{"start":125.596,"end":145.487,"text":"這個新政他一定有所新政有所了解有所新政他才能夠在仲裁上宣判再來調查的監察委員他也一定一樣跟仲裁委員一樣有一定的新政他也才能夠做出監察院的調查報告那現在問題來了我們是最後那一個啊萬一公布出來跟前面不一樣怎麼辦"},{"start":147.659,"end":165.278,"text":"主委,你有沒有想過這個問題?剛剛我有聽到,你有回答說應該你跟檢察院是差不多的。如果有一天有一個調查報告出來,你們是不一樣。請問一下,這裡面所有人民的信任,所有可能涉及商務的賠償,到底要誰才會遵守?主委"},{"start":169.205,"end":187.293,"text":"監察院的調查的跟我們的方向是一致可是我們的報告比他細膩阿對阿萬一監察院沒有調查的部分你們有調查嘛所以只有一個報告那監察院有調查的部分跟你們也有調查的部分如果有一天出現不一樣的時候請問我們該相信誰的"},{"start":188.14,"end":215.394,"text":"因為他拿的這個resource的資料都一模一樣,不可能會...喔,真的嗎?主委,你真有信心喔?因為我們跟同一個單位拿的資料都一樣,但是我們的分析的角度會跟他當然不同。沒有關係,主委,這個是你應該回去,因為我只有5分鐘,我其實沒有空跟你在這裡探討啦。我只是提醒你第一個,你想喔,這麼多單位在調查,再來這些單位source都跟你一樣,他速度卻比你快。"},{"start":217.026,"end":240.152,"text":"因為核心的問題要出來嘛才可以對這件事情做一個結案或了結嘛那你跟他不一樣的部分或許不是今天這個事件的問題核心嘛可是大家怎麼看運安會監察院跟你都同樣的受死你們調出來結果一樣人家監察院為什麼可以速度比你快你的速度比人家慢這個叫做合理性的說明"},{"start":240.916,"end":265.361,"text":"就是運安會恐怕要花一點時間對國會對社會大眾對運安會你們的分級制度調查每一級調查的時間是否合理該被檢視然後這些調查報告如果不一樣未來不要產生爭議在立法院大家有人拿監察院的報告有人拿運安會的報告草野立委又因為大家這個不同又吵的說這個有政治力介入還有什麼"},{"start":266.377,"end":295.59,"text":"我先防患未然啦就你們講運安會的每一個報告其實都在防患未然嘛對不對我也一樣先在這裡提醒這個也因為從終結這個案子你就可以知道第一個我們速度最慢人家仲裁也判了要賠多少錢也判了然後的監察院報告也出來了哇阿當海阿現在純單運安會欸所以這個難怪大家會會質疑嘛好第二個部分我們所有的所有的這個報告啊"},{"start":296.264,"end":321.277,"text":"我們所有的報告每一次運安會的調查都是為了阻止這個下一個事故的發生這個其實報告的精髓在這裡也是運安會成立或者在立法院代表民意的立法委員其實大家最關心的其實就是這個所以在我的看法上剛剛你都被白罵運安會我告訴大家"},{"start":322.621,"end":347.085,"text":"運安會對所有的行政機關我只要透過調查我認為你該改善的部分你沒有改善我告訴主委我如果是主委就對了這個部長哪一個部都一樣你準備要下台這個是人民生命財產的安全我運安會作為一個獨立機關我告訴你你要立即改善什麼避免下一個遺憾的事情再發生"},{"start":348.444,"end":374.762,"text":"我管理部長預算你要編幾年那是你部長的事情啊人命關天的事情在你部長的行政作為當中要排第一順位第二順位第三順位那是你行政部門的事我運安會只負責調查告訴你缺失在哪裡你該如何改善為什麼運安會主委今天站在這裡被立委罵站在這裡的應該是被你調查出來時至今天一大堆的理由包括預算不足人力不足一大堆的不足"},{"start":376.124,"end":397.76,"text":"不足我們就換一個能力好一點的部長或者局長或者署長而不是運安會站在這裡你是獨立機關你今天代表的是專業然後告訴這個行政機關你該怎麼做讓人民在任何空、陸、海各種運輸上面我只要搭乘"},{"start":399.158,"end":416.863,"text":"意外我不敢講,但是只要大家按照規矩走,那個意外發生的比例應該可以降到很低避免下一個遺憾,避免下一個事故再發生,這個才是大家對運安會的期許所以主委我的意思就要告訴你就是說,不用做神父啊"},{"start":421.121,"end":438.32,"text":"你就很勇敢的告訴大家你要怎麼做,那是你行政部門的事情啊你做部長你沒錢,你要趕去想辦法,要去行政院爭取要發揮部長的能力,要不然我們請這麼多部長是要做什麼就是要叫他們快點,這人民、姊妹的問題你要趕去想辦法去處理"},{"start":439.681,"end":466.162,"text":"然後呢時間主席已經站起來了比如說我不知道你們這樣調查出來之後如果這裡面涉及你看齁很多那個那個營建相關的這些公安啊我們都會用那個採購法101條把它移送對不對這些廠商怕得要死啊那運輸安全調查報告同樣一樣要這樣告訴行政機關或者你們想辦法自己來做處置就是對於如果像這些"},{"start":467.973,"end":474.246,"text":"運輸事故發生而涉及到這是施工的不良偷工減料施工設計不好等等"},{"start":475.333,"end":497.06,"text":"這個也應該要這樣做嘛我是不知道現在有沒有啦我只是舉個例子告訴你運安會應該要做到這樣這是人民的信任這是人民對運安會這個專業單位的信任所以我們要架構起運安會的權威跟專業這個才能夠確保人民的安全所有的行政機關這裡我覺得運安會說的他如果不謹記最好他每天去拜拜啦不然他準備要露台啊我跟你說"},{"start":501.909,"end":502.269,"text":"蔡其昌副院長"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}