{"error":false,"id":["151565"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":151565,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151565","日期":"2024-04-22","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-26-13","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":13,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-04-22T11:56:30+08:00","結束時間":"2024-04-22T12:04:03+08:00","影片長度":"00:07:33","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5754819b6179c336169598fa755878f1cff82116bdf94ca8dcb4691eb09bf4e2d77338c61540601a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"11:56:30 - 12:04:03","會議時間":"2024-04-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、交通部、經濟部、內政部警政署就「噪音管制與加速推動排氣管噪音認證」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月22日、24日及25日三天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":1077,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（11時56分）謝謝主席，請環境部、交通部、經濟部、內政部一起來好了。"],["主席：請部長。"],["薛部長富盛：牛委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長午安。既然要談噪音管制，以制度性層面來講，我們乾脆就一次處理，所以請這麼多人來一起討論，因為跟大家其實都有關係。"],["薛部長富盛：好，大家交換意見。"],["牛委員煦庭：根據環境部的統計，民眾陳情的噪音車輛檢舉案件數量大概有多少件？"],["薛部長富盛：八萬七千多件。"],["牛委員煦庭：越來越多了嘛，對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：裁罰的數量大概有多少？"],["薛部長富盛：裁罰的比例……"],["牛委員煦庭：大概四分之一左右啦！"],["薛部長富盛：25%。"],["牛委員煦庭：大概兩成多啦！為什麼會發生這樣的事？"],["薛部長富盛：這裡面可能是人為的，而且很多噪音，譬如機車呼嘯而過……"],["牛委員煦庭：不好抓嘛，對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以我們今天要針對這個問題來做討論，然後本席有三個題目，第一個是源頭阻卻，源頭阻卻的問題跟經濟部有關，你們可以一起回答。"],["薛部長富盛：我們源頭管理。"],["牛委員煦庭：以現在來講，我們大概講說抓吵不抓改或怎麼樣，但是跟部長做一下討論，現在經濟部表示改管應該要為變更登記，然後要使用環境部認證的排氣管，對不對？它表示大家都支持，業者也支持，具體規劃是114年1月1號開始上路，對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：好。"],["薛部長富盛：現在是一個緩衝期，今年是緩衝期。"],["牛委員煦庭：你現在有多少把握業者會百分之百配合這件事？還是表面上配合你，私底下還是賣不合格的管子？"],["薛部長富盛：不會……"],["牛委員煦庭：你們有沒有掌握這種狀況？"],["薛部長富盛：因為登記到目前為止，將近有1萬5,000位的機車車主已經來登記了，持續還在進行當中。"],["牛委員煦庭：現在有實務上的稽查狀況，就是逃脫也是有方法的，比如我被抓到違規就要回去驗車，驗車時我就把正常管裝回去，然後驗完車之後再裝回來，對不對？所以我們講的源頭管制，你如果只是形式上的源頭管制是沒有辦法處理這件事的，真正的源頭管制當然還是要從業者下手，我完全同意所謂的抓吵不抓改，這除了規範機車以外，業者的部分其實也是要這樣。換言之，如果現在業者通通很配合，就是會用有認證的排氣管的時候，政府機關還是要有一個稽查的機制，還是要針對業者去做稽查，不能因為有一個名義上的東西就不針對業者去做調整。過去桃園市政府在推動靜桃專案的時候是針對業者去稽查，當然業者一定會反彈，但是公權力該做的時候就要做，把話講清楚、規則定清楚。我現在就要問經濟部，請經濟部回答，你現在講業者都願意配合，未來你如果做稽查，你發現這家業者名義上講說都會提供合法的排氣管，可是你去稽查的時候，發現它根本沒有在做這件事，它掛羊頭賣狗肉，還是繼續做非法改管行為的時候，你有沒有處罰的方案？"],["謝副局長翰璋：跟委員報告，我們一般都會會同環境部一起去稽查，所以我們發現的時候會把相關資料請環境部馬上依照其法規酌予處理。"],["牛委員煦庭：現在的法規、現在的處罰機制是什麼？"],["薛部長富盛：是一個聯合稽查的動作，剛剛牛委員的問題是怎麼樣？"],["牛委員煦庭：我是說你現在只有聯合稽查機制，可是你抓到業者如果還是非法提供相關排氣管的時候，有沒有針對業者的處罰機制？"],["薛部長富盛：有，應該……"],["牛委員煦庭：沒有。"],["薛部長富盛：但是對業者應該是經濟部在負責吧？"],["牛委員煦庭：所以這就是我今天把你們一起叫上來的原因。"],["薛部長富盛：環境部只針對有沒有經環境部認可的排氣管，以及它排的噪音是不是超過標準，環境部……"],["牛委員煦庭：你看，這就是漏洞！所以你們要開會討論，要不然你的源頭管理永遠都沒有處理。"],["薛部長富盛：OK，瞭解。"],["牛委員煦庭：剛剛都在討論這一個月能不能雷厲風行，我是希望可以，因為這種事情其實不分藍綠、不分朝野，也不分誰做環境部長、誰做經濟部長，這是全民共識。"],["薛部長富盛：對！對！"],["牛委員煦庭：這應該把它澈底殲滅，所以趕快做研討，不要拖了，好不好？"],["薛部長富盛：是，好。"],["牛委員煦庭：針對業者的課責，也要有課責機制才有辦法源頭阻卻，這是第一個問題。"],["薛部長富盛：好，謝謝牛委員。"],["牛委員煦庭：第二個問題就是執法的效率，我要談的是科技執法，其實剛剛很多委員都有問過，我們今天不花太多時間在這個地方，未來有沒有打算擴大相關的預算？因為剛剛大家都講一套一套行動式的太少了。"],["薛部長富盛：對啊！我覺得不夠，我覺得應該要有。"],["牛委員煦庭：請內政部警政署來講一下，使用科技執法之後，對於節省警察工作量能有沒有幫助？"],["李副署長西河：科技執法設備是由噪音的……"],["牛委員煦庭：對啊！噪音科技執法。"],["劉組長振安：那不是警察的設備，都是在環保……"],["薛部長富盛：那個是環境部……"],["牛委員煦庭：我跟你講的是在沒有科技執法設備的情況下，要怎麼抓噪音？是不是交通警察跟著去執法？叫做環警聯合稽查，對不對？"],["李副署長西河：對，第一個是在配合聯合稽查；第二個，我們在勤務當中，不管路檢、臨檢，發現有這樣的情況都會處理。"],["牛委員煦庭：如果多一些科技執法的設備，你是不是少一點警察出勤的機會？"],["李副署長西河：是！是！是！"],["牛委員煦庭：我就是要聽你這一句話，所以請環境部、內政部想辦法，也許警政可以提供一些預算支援，這也是可以的啊！因為這件事情有助於減少基層員警的壓力，所以不管你們要從哪裡找錢出來，就是要做嘛！就是去加大科技執法設備的預算編列，這是第二個問題。"],["薛部長富盛：好，OK。"],["牛委員煦庭：第三個就是交通部，你要靈活運用法規啊！最近大家吵得沸沸揚揚的記點制度，職業駕駛快崩潰了，對不對？這當然要做檢討、要做調整，該記點的沒記點，不記點的去記點，你當然被罵，交通部，噪音改管車輛，人人得而誅之！這沒有什麼好客氣的，現在這種有沒有記點？就是他被抓包超標、很吵，有沒有記點？"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告一下，這一個噪音管制超過標準的部分是按照噪音管制……"],["牛委員煦庭：是罰錢，對不對？"],["林司長福山：是按照它的法來做規定，如果是屬於消音器不全、有影響行車安全的話，在這個處罰條例裡面是有這個規定，但因為兩個適用的法源有不一樣……"],["牛委員煦庭：我跟你講，很多人在那邊研討說我們要沒入車輛，這當然是最有效的裁罰機制，可是你不能一下子標準就定那麼高然後都做不到，甚至一直都在研討中，這樣是有問題的，最務實而且可以思考的方式就是記點，你被人家抓包，晚上你喜歡出去飆車就記點，多記幾點是不是就可以扣牌了？比較快。"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告一下，如果是飆車的話，那個一定會記點，而且會吊扣駕照。"],["牛委員煦庭：我現在講的是噪音，飆車族的噪音，所以是不是一樣來做個研討？把它納入記點，且這個記點不會有民怨，反而大家拍拍手，覺得政府有魄力，這才是比較務實的地方。","所以本席做個小結論，就三個部分，第一個，針對源頭阻卻的部分，要對業者課予責任；第二，加強執法效率，增加科技執法量能；第三，靈活運用記點制度，澈底殲滅噪音的公害，好不好？"],["薛部長富盛：好，謝謝牛委員的建議。"],["牛委員煦庭：這個不要等什麼換不換屆，就趕快做了，我希望可以趕快看到成果，可以嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：好，謝謝牛委員的建議。"],["牛委員煦庭：謝謝，各位辛苦了。"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝牛煦庭委員。報告委員會，何欣純委員要求同意發言後再處理臨時提案。","我們先請何欣純委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":252,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-13","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林月琴","廖偉翔","王育敏","盧縣一","蘇清泉","涂權吉","王正旭","楊瓊瓔","李坤城","林德福","林淑芬","洪孟楷","鄭天財Sra 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牛煦好"},{"start":23.339,"end":44.377,"text":"市長午安,既然要談噪音管制、制度性的層面來講,我們乾脆就一次處理了,所以叫這麼多人來一起討論,因為跟大家其實都有關係。好,大家交換意見。這個根據環境部的統計,民眾陳情的噪音車輛檢舉案件數量大概多少件?八萬七千多件。越來越多了嘛,對不對?財閥的數量大概多少?"},{"start":45.874,"end":46.335,"text":"為什麼會發生這樣的事?"},{"start":57.103,"end":76.931,"text":"這裡面可能人為的這個對而且很多噪音齁譬如說你機車呼嘯而過不好抓嘛對不對所以我們今天要針對這個問題來做討論然後本期有三個題目齁第一個叫做源頭阻卻啦源頭阻卻的問題跟經濟部有關齁你們可以一起回答齁"},{"start":77.611,"end":78.572,"text":"現在是一個緩衝期今年是緩衝期"},{"start":101.403,"end":108.296,"text":"你現在有多少把握業者會100%配合這件事?還是說表面上配合你私底下還是賣不合格的管制?因為目前登記到目前為止將近15000"},{"start":114.367,"end":120.011,"text":"為這個機車的車主已經來登記了一萬五千個那持續還在進行當中"},{"start":143.686,"end":143.907,"text":"那當然嘛"},{"start":168.005,"end":189.373,"text":"業者一定會反彈但是公權力該做的時候就要做那把話講清楚規則定清楚我現在就要問經濟部經濟部你回答你現在講業者都有都願意配合那未來你如果做稽查你發現這家業者名義上講說我都會提供合法的排氣管可是我去稽查的時候發現他根本沒有在做這件事他掛羊頭賣狗肉還是繼續做非法的改管的行為的時候你有沒有處罰處罰的方案"},{"start":191.567,"end":214.008,"text":"跟委員報告我們一般都會會同那個環境部一起去稽查所以這個時候我們發現的時候我們會把相關資料請環境部馬上依照他的法規就著以處理現在的法規現在的處罰機制是什麼是一個聯合稽查動作剛剛劉委員的問題是什麼樣我說你現在是有聯合稽查機制嘛可是你抓到業者如果還是非法提供相關的這個排氣管的時候有沒有針對業者的處罰機制"},{"start":215.973,"end":242.363,"text":"有啊應該沒有但是對業者應該會是經濟部在負責吧還是你看所以這就是我今天要把你們一起叫上來的原因吧對不對環境部只針對有沒有環境部認可的這個排氣管以及他排的噪音是不是超過標準環境部好你看這就是漏洞對不對所以你們要開會討論嘛要不然你的源頭管理永遠都是永遠都沒有處理嘛對不對這個"},{"start":243.943,"end":253.83,"text":"剛剛都在講討論說這一個月對不對能不能雷厲風行我是希望可以啦因為這種事情其實不分藍綠、不分朝野也不分誰做環境部長、誰做經濟部長這全民共識這應該把它徹底殲滅所以就趕快開始做研討不要拖了好不好針對業者的課則啊"},{"start":262.395,"end":285.022,"text":"有課則機制才有辦法源頭阻卻這第一個問題第二個問題就是執法的效率我要談的是科技執法但其實剛剛很多委員都有問過我們今天不花太多時間在這個地方這未來有沒有打算擴大相關的預算因為剛剛大家都講一套一套行動資格太少我覺得不夠我覺得應該要來內政部警政署來講一下"},{"start":286.523,"end":294.653,"text":"這個使用之後有沒有對於這個節省警察的工作量能啊有沒有幫助使用科技執法的話"},{"start":297.073,"end":305.178,"text":"我跟你講是沒有科技執法設備的情況下要怎麼抓噪音你是不是交通警察是不是要跟人去執法對不對叫做環境聯合稽查對不對第一個是在配合聯合稽查"},{"start":316.004,"end":342.252,"text":"對第二個我們在勤務當中不管入檢、臨檢發現有這樣的都會處理對不對如果多一些科技執法的設備你是不是少一點警察出行的機會是是嘛對我要聽你這句話所以環境部、內政部想辦法也許警政也提供一些預算資源也是可以的啊因為這件事情有助於減少基層警力的壓力所以不管你們要從哪裡找錢出來就是要做嘛去加大這個科技執法這個設備的預算編列部長好這第二個"},{"start":345.073,"end":370.047,"text":"第三個交通部來你要靈活運用法規啊最近大家在吵得沸沸揚揚的叫做祭典制度對不對職業價值都崩潰了對不對這當然要檢討要做調整該祭典的沒祭典不祭典的去祭典你當然被罵嘛交通部噪音改管車輛人人得而誅之啊這沒有什麼好客氣的這種有沒有祭典現在他被倆包抄標很吵有沒有祭典"},{"start":370.447,"end":390.265,"text":"跟委員報告一下這個噪音管制超過標準的部分是按照這個噪音管制：是罰錢嘛：是按照他的法來做規定那如果說是屬於這一個消音器不全有影響行車安全的話那個是在這一個處罰條例裡面有這個規定那噪音管因為兩個適用的法源是有不一樣啊"},{"start":390.885,"end":407.767,"text":"我跟你講你們在那邊研討很多人在那邊研討說我們要沒入車輛這當然是最有效的裁罰機制可是你如果沒有一個你不能一下標準定那麼高然後都做不到一直研討中這樣是有問題的嘛最務實而且可以思考的方式就是祭典嘛你被人家抓包晚上你喜歡出去飆車就祭典啊"},{"start":408.328,"end":426.587,"text":"多記幾點,什麼就可以扣牌了?各位,各位報告一下,如果是飆車的話,那個一定記,而且這個掉過駕照噪音啦,我現在講的是噪音啦,飆車族的噪音對不對?是不是一樣來做個研討啦?這個把它納入記點,這個記點不會有民怨嘛,反而大家拍拍手覺得政府有魄力對不對?"},{"start":427.368,"end":427.388,"text":"好 謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}