{"error":false,"id":["151572"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":151572,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151572","日期":"2024-04-22","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-26-13","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":13,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-04-22T12:18:56+08:00","結束時間":"2024-04-22T12:31:21+08:00","影片長度":"00:12:25","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5754819b6179c336b04a78f1bafd3ef0cff82116bdf94ca8dcb4691eb09bf4e261617c5b69c247d15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉建國","委員發言時間":"12:18:56 - 12:31:21","會議時間":"2024-04-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、交通部、經濟部、內政部警政署就「噪音管制與加速推動排氣管噪音認證」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月22日、24日及25日三天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":1258,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（12時19分）謝謝主席，有請部長、警政署李副署長。"],["主席：請薛部長、李副署長。"],["薛部長富盛：劉委員好。"],["劉委員建國：部長辛苦了。"],["薛部長富盛：不會。"],["劉委員建國：在第10屆第7會期，上半年的時候，有幸擔任司法及法制委員會的召委，那時候就排了環境部組織法，很感謝當時衛環及司法及法制委員的支持，迅速讓環境部組織法通過，環境部也在去年8月22日順利掛牌。我也要謝謝薛部長臨危受命，成為第一任環境部部長，但部長剩下不到一個月時間就要畢業……"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝劉委員。"],["劉委員建國：當然也感謝部長，因為臺灣的氣候變遷，還有2050淨零碳排的相關政策，有進行了長遠的規劃跟布局，我在這邊也特別感謝部長，在這麼短的時間把這些事情做到一定的程度。不過有些問題，剩下這不到一個月的時間，還是要請部長來關心，今天主席剛好排噪音的相關課題，因為有時候等到下一個部長來處理的時候，可能會緩不濟急。請部長看一個新聞，這是去年的新聞，它的內容很清楚就是說，暑假是噪音車旺季，雲林縣環警監開罰單加強打擊，然後在7至9月又要推動「靜城專案」，環保局與警察局、監理站要聯合加強稽查。我們在稽查的時候，到底是用什麼樣的方式去確定它的消音器有拔掉？"],["薛部長富盛：消音器有沒有拔掉，對我們來講不是重點，重點是它排氣的時候產生的噪音有沒有超過我們的標準，當然我們會看它的排氣管是不是符合環境部認證的排氣管。"],["劉委員建國：對，看排氣管有沒有符合環境部的認證，對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：是是是。"],["劉委員建國：但是，如果它的噪音值超過，我們是不是會用噪音管制法去裁罰嘛？"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["劉委員建國：就是一千八到三千六嘛，對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["劉委員建國：但是如果他拔掉消音器，那罰則又不一樣，是依照道交法的第四十三條去處理嘛？"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["劉委員建國：這個部分是屬於警察機關來處理，那副署長就請說明一下，你們怎麼去認定？"],["李副署長西河：他如果把這個消音的拔掉以後，我們就依照道交條例第四十三條給他處罰。"],["劉委員建國：對，你們怎麼知道他拔掉？用什麼樣的儀器去認定他拔掉，還是目視？還是從以前到現在，到現在還是用土法，用警棍去戳那個排氣管？"],["劉組長振安：排氣管的形式非常多，不能夠用一個像掃把的柄進去戳，以前是有這樣子不當的一個……"],["劉委員建國：你們沒有用掃把的柄，你們是用警棍啦！"],["劉組長振安：對啦，也有員警用警棍，那……"],["劉委員建國：以前是這樣，現在也是這樣嗎？"],["劉組長振安：現在我們禁止這樣子做，我們如果能夠判斷得出來的話，那我們就做……"],["劉委員建國：怎麼判斷？"],["劉組長振安：如果有一些排氣管可以從外觀看到它的消音器已經拆掉的話，那我們就直接來製單舉發。"],["劉委員建國：你還是沒有回答我怎麼判斷。"],["劉組長振安：那就是可以看得出來的，如果看不……"],["劉委員建國：怎麼看嘛？你會不會看嘛？"],["劉組長振安：我不會看，老實講……"],["劉委員建國：這就對啦！"],["劉組長振安：不會看的時候，如果聲音太大的時候……"],["劉委員建國：聲音太大就用噪音管制法去處理嘛。"],["劉組長振安：因為我們沒有儀器可以判斷，所以我們只能夠把這一部車拍照下來之後，送請環保單位，再去通知他來檢驗。"],["劉委員建國：送去環保單位來檢驗？"],["劉組長振安：對，有關於噪音的部分，就拍照下來……"],["劉委員建國：有關於噪音的部分，那很清楚了，對不對？如果它的噪音聲量過高，那當然用噪音管制法，由環境部、地方環保局來處理嘛，對不對？"],["劉組長振安：是。"],["劉委員建國：但是如果拔除它的消音器，誰來認定？誰來處理？"],["劉組長振安：拆除消音器這部分，的確有一些我們是沒辦法用目視來看的……"],["劉委員建國：你講的「有一些」，那等於有一些是可以嘛？"],["劉組長振安：如果從排氣管的後端可以看得出來的，那我們就……"],["劉委員建國：怎麼看嘛？"],["劉組長振安：所以就是這個部分也……"],["劉委員建國：你會不會看嘛？"],["劉組長振安：也看不出來，我老實講，我沒有在實務做過，我不會看。"],["劉委員建國：對，你現在可以馬上問你們的警察同仁，誰會看，能不能來給我們說明一下。"],["劉組長振安：基本上這一些屬於……"],["劉委員建國：你不要一直跟我爭嘛！你們有沒有辦法看得出來嘛？還是你的同仁有在你旁邊，你叫他來講給我們聽，你們是怎麼看的嘛？"],["劉組長振安：那個早期會用……"],["劉委員建國：我給你看一個案例，好不好？請部長、副署長看這個案例，桃園一名陳姓男子在110年8月9日晚上10點半遭警攔查，因他拆除排氣管消音器被開罰六千並吊扣牌照六個月，他提出申訴，最後法官認為該員警僅以現場聽聞狀況判定，法官是說「聽」、「聞」，你是說用看的，那我就不曉得你怎麼看的了。"],["薛部長富盛：沒有科學的……"],["劉委員建國：對不對？然後法官說缺乏儀器的檢查，也無從回推陳男的排氣管是否拆除消音器，因此將該罰單撤銷。所以我們今天安排這個專案報告，這個事情你不解決，你怎麼去抓噪音？你怎麼去嚇阻人家拔除消音器？沒有啊！因為我現在請教你的時候，你也沒辦法回答我，你說用看的，那你叫一個人來跟我講說怎麼看嘛，給委員會講說你怎麼看嘛！我們是要解決問題，對不對？所以我才會講你不能再像……其實也不能講像以前，現在也是這樣，還是有員警拿警棍在捅排氣管，去確定到底有沒有把消音器拔掉，當然不會拿掃把啦！"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝劉委員的建議，我覺得這個應該要去，我們跟經濟部、交通部這邊來研究一下，看看這個漏洞要怎麼去……"],["劉委員建國：對，我們就是要解決問題嘛，對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：對，沒錯，我們要去面對，去解決問題。"],["劉委員建國：如果現在在處理這個事情的時候，都還用不是科學的方式，最終你們很積極地去做這方面的攔查，結果到了法院的判決是這個樣子。"],["薛部長富盛：事實上這部分可以跟原來的產品去做比對，看看是不是其中哪一個部分，比如消音器被拿掉了還是怎麼樣，當然需要花一些時間啦。"],["劉委員建國：我想我們透過質詢就是要解決問題，是不是請部長，還有警政署、交通部應該在一個月內，是不是可以來研擬，到底這個事情要用什麼樣的方式更精準，用科學的方式來做一個處理，才不會讓員警還有地方的這些環保人員……"],["薛部長富盛：對，努力了半天，結果罰單又被撤銷。"],["劉委員建國：對，好，謝謝，兩位請回。我提醒一下，不知道的事情不要胡亂回答，我想委員都有準備才會問嘛，你如果自己不清楚，回答這個模稜兩可的事情，自己都不清楚的話，我想有時候會漏氣啦！","第二件事情是這樣，部長，你有沒有看過這個貼紙？"],["薛部長富盛：我倒是沒有看過。"],["劉委員建國：這個是以前的環保署，現在變成環境部了，這個確定應該是以前做的噪音審驗合格證，沒有問題吧？"],["薛部長富盛：是，應該是嘛，張司長，這是以前我們早期……"],["張司長順欽：這是早期用的。"],["劉委員建國：不然你們現在還有什麼新的？"],["張司長順欽：現在沒有新的，現在不用這個了。"],["劉委員建國：就是啊，所以你們舊的就把它忘了？"],["薛部長富盛：現在不用，這個現在沒有在用就對了。"],["劉委員建國：這個就是你們做的嘛？"],["張司長順欽：對。"],["劉委員建國：對嘛，好，你再看旁邊這張，右邊這個是不是也是你們做的？你慎重回答喔，你前面就沒辦法認定了，你不要第二張還跟我講說是或不是喔，你也不行都不回答喔。"],["薛部長富盛：這個除了看起來顏色不一樣，裡面的包括文字、包括……感覺還蠻像的。"],["張司長順欽：這個應該有問題，這個好像是在網路上可以買到的一個貼紙……"],["劉委員建國：對。"],["張司長順欽：那個要請消保官去查。"],["劉委員建國：好，所以這個是不是你們的？"],["張司長順欽：不是。"],["劉委員建國：不是，好，那再問一次，左邊是不是你們的？審驗合格證是不是你們的？右邊的你跟我講不是了嘛，對不對？你確定了嘛？"],["薛部長富盛：理論上環境部應該不會去貼高噪音這種東西，比較低噪音、比較好的東西才會去貼，邏輯的……"],["劉委員建國：對，那右邊這個叫做噪音審驗不合格證，肯定不是你們？"],["薛部長富盛：我們大概不會去貼這種東西。"],["劉委員建國：到現在不敢果斷地答復我，那就很奇怪了，然後自己貼的東西，當然那時候你不是當司長，我知道，也不是薛部長在當部長的任內，不過基本上一個合格的檢驗證，誠如剛才部長答復我的，對於相關的排氣管，我們有一個認證的機制，我也必須在這個地方去貼一個相關的驗證合格的標章，也就是那個名牌，怎麼會有人去貼這種東西？然後我們要怎麼處理？"],["薛部長富盛：你是說貼右手邊這種東西喔？"],["劉委員建國：對啊，就是貼這個噪音審驗不合格證啦。"],["薛部長富盛：這種東西我覺得，環境部假如有發現就應該發新聞稿公開說明並透過媒體澄清，環境部不可能去貼所謂的高噪音還是什麼這一類的，這個就是不合邏輯的概念。"],["劉委員建國：是，但是人家是貼高噪音不合格證，他沒有講合格，他是講不合格證喔。"],["薛部長富盛：這部分環境部我們會站出來去釐清……"],["劉委員建國：這個還是在網路上有在賣，剛才司長自己講的嘛，對不對？站在環境主管的機關，這要怎麼處理？有沒有罰則？"],["薛部長富盛：這個貼紙大概沒有罰則，但是他不可以用行政院環保署車輛的名義，不可以用侵犯到我們的機關的……"],["劉委員建國：對，公部門機關相關的名稱都不可以去使用，對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：是啊！"],["劉委員建國：所以其實已經觸及了紅線，也是在挑釁公部門。"],["薛部長富盛：我覺得他絕對是觸法，這個是挑戰公權力。"],["劉委員建國：好，我們知道了，那要怎麼處理嘛？"],["薛部長富盛：這是挑戰公權力，我覺得這個是……"],["劉委員建國：要怎麼處理？"],["薛部長富盛：應該要有罰則，我們來瞭解一下細節。"],["張司長順欽：我們有透過公平會這邊，請他們幫忙查處。"],["劉委員建國：怎麼查處？他們去查處是怎麼查處？這個有罰則嗎？"],["張司長順欽：在公平交易法上面是有規定這個不行，現在就是請他下架，不能再賣了。"],["劉委員建國：是，你們之後還會有改裝排氣管認證的相關制度，對不對？現在是緩衝期，明年你們就要全面上路了。"],["薛部長富盛：是，沒錯。"],["劉委員建國：那之前就有這個狀況，未來一定會有其他狀況再發生嘛！"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["劉委員建國：如果主管機關都不積極去面對這個事情，這種事情會持續下去，對你們在推動這整個相關政策的過程裡面也是一個衝突跟挑戰啦！就請你們注意這件事情。"],["薛部長富盛：OK，我們來解決這個問題。"],["劉委員建國：好，謝謝。"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝劉委員。"],["劉委員建國：最後，剛剛我特別要求環境部、交通部還有警政署針對消音器拔掉認定的科學根據，在一個月內一定要提供給委員會來做參考，好不好？"],["薛部長富盛：OK。"],["劉委員建國：好，謝謝主席，謝謝部長。"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝劉委員。"],["主席：謝謝劉建國委員。接下來請羅智強委員發言。那我先宣告中午不休息，質詢到登記委員發言結束後才休息。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":252,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-13","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林月琴","廖偉翔","王育敏","盧縣一","蘇清泉","涂權吉","王正旭","楊瓊瓔","李坤城","林德福","林淑芬","洪孟楷","鄭天財Sra 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。我在這個上一屆,就第10屆的時候,也第7會期,這個上半年的時候,有興趣擔任社會法制的召委。那時候就排了環境部的組織法。"},{"start":34.125,"end":54.922,"text":"那也很感謝當時的衛環跟司法法制的委員大家都非常支持迅速讓這個環境部的執法通過嘛那環境部就可以在去年的8月22日來順利掛牌那也要謝謝薛部長臨為壽命成為第一任的這個環境部的部長但是部長現在現在不到一個月就要畢業先有"},{"start":58.295,"end":75.92,"text":"當然也感謝部長因為台灣的氣候變遷還有2050要進行碳排的相關政策進行產品的規劃跟佈局我在這邊也特別感謝部長在這麼短的時間來把這些事情做到一定的程度"},{"start":76.92,"end":96.794,"text":"不過有些問題,剩下這不到一個時間還是要請部長來關心因為今天主席剛好排這個噪音的相關的課題因為有時候等到現在部長來處理的時候可能會緩不濟急部長看一個新聞這個是去年的新聞那很清楚就是說暑假的噪音"},{"start":97.995,"end":99.416,"text":"我們在稽查的時候到底是用什麼方式去確定它的這個消音器有拔掉嗎?"},{"start":128.152,"end":141.902,"text":"消音器有沒有拔掉對我們來講不是重點是說他排氣的時候產生的噪音有沒有超過我們的標準當然我們會對他排氣管看他是不是符合環境部認證的那個排氣管"},{"start":142.922,"end":170.06,"text":"對,看排氣管有沒有環境部有認證嘛 對不對但是如果它的噪音值超過我們用噪音管制法去做裁划嘛就1800到3600嘛 對不對但是它拔掉這個消音器那划子又不一樣是依照道交法的43條去做處理嘛那這個部分是屬於檢查機關來做處理那副長就請說明一下你們怎麼去認定"},{"start":171.819,"end":193.841,"text":"他如果把這個消音的拔掉以後我們就到這條4、3條給他處罰對阿你們怎麼知道他拔掉用什麼樣的儀器去認定他拔掉還是木式還是以前的到現在喔到現在還是用那個那個圖法用剪棍去戳那個排氣管"},{"start":194.411,"end":196.751,"text":"我們如果能夠判斷的出來的話 那我們就做判斷"},{"start":222.116,"end":235.961,"text":"那如果說有一些排氣管可以從外觀裡面看到它的排氣那個那個消音器已經拆掉的話那我們就直接來自断聚化那就是可以看得出來"},{"start":238.847,"end":256.823,"text":"從就是說 我不會看 老實講 不會看的時候如果聲音太大的時候 聲音太大就用噪音管制法去處理嘛 因為我們沒有儀器可以判斷 沒有嘛 所以我們只能夠把這一部車把它拍照下來之後 送請那個環保單位再去通知他來檢驗"},{"start":257.944,"end":276.457,"text":"送去環保單位來檢驗有關你噪音的部分就拍照下來有關你這部分那很清楚了對不對他如果噪音的聲量過高那當然要用噪音管制法環境部地方環保局來處理對不對但是如果拔除他的消音器誰來認定"},{"start":277.898,"end":291.523,"text":"誰來處理?拆除消音器的確就是說我們有一些是沒辦法用目視來看你講的有一些那等於是有一些是可以嗎?那如果說從排氣管的後端可以看得出來的那我們怎麼看嗎?所以就是這個部分"},{"start":292.503,"end":292.623,"text":"主席"},{"start":310.151,"end":329.538,"text":"那個早期會用...好啦我給你看一個案例好不好請部長跟副長看這個案例嘛這是一個桃園的一名全新男子在114點8月9號晚上10點半召警攔查嘛齁因他拆除排氣管箱去被開花6千嘛並調供牌照這個6個月嘛他提出申訴最後法官認為該院警經理現場聽聞狀況判定聽啊、聞啊"},{"start":334.605,"end":363.055,"text":"你是說這麼看的喔?那我就不曉得你怎麼看的啊?對不對?然後最後就是缺乏儀器的檢查也無從回推承攬排氣管視火拆除消音器因此該罰單撤銷啊?雖然今天你要把你罪犯報告這個事情你不解決你怎麼去抓噪音?你怎麼去嚇阻人家拔除消音器?沒有啊!因為我現在請教你的時候你也沒辦法回答我啊你說用看的啊那你叫一個人來跟我講說怎麼看嘛給委會講說你怎麼看嘛"},{"start":364.076,"end":379.271,"text":"我們是要解決問題嘛對不對所以我才想說你不能再像其實也不能講像以前現在是這樣啊還是有員警拿警棍在捅那個排氣管啊去確定到底有沒有把這個消音器拔掉啊"},{"start":381.767,"end":407.664,"text":"當然不會拿掃保啦謝謝劉委員的建議啦我覺得這個應該去我們跟這個經濟部跟交通部這邊來研究一下看看這個漏洞要怎麼去我們就是要解決問題嘛對不對如果現在在做這個事情的時候都還用不是科學的方式到最終你們很積極的去做這樣的攬查結果到了法院的判決是這個樣子"},{"start":409.987,"end":419.198,"text":"實際上這個可以跟原來的產品去做比對嗎?看看是不是其中哪一個部分消音器被拿掉還是怎麼樣?當然需要花一些時間"},{"start":420.565,"end":446.224,"text":"我想我們透過質詢就是要解決問題嘛是不是部長還有警政署還有交通部應該是一個月內是不是可以來研擬到底這事情要用什麼樣的方式更精準用科學方式來做這樣的一個處理才不會讓遠景還有地方的這些環保人員努力了半天結果罰單就被撤銷好謝謝兩位請回好不好"},{"start":449.366,"end":450.568,"text":"第二件事情是這樣,部長有沒有看過這個貼紙"},{"start":469.248,"end":497.628,"text":"我倒是沒有看過啦這個是以前環保署現在變成環境部啦齁這確定應該是所以前做的這個噪音審驗合格證OK沒有問題吧是應該是嘛齁我們這是以前這是早期用的早期阿不然你現在還有什麼新的現在沒有新的就對了不用這個啦阿所以你國會就把他放在那裡了這現在不可以用就對了阿這就你們做的嘛對阿對嘛齁好阿你又看邊這張"},{"start":500.171,"end":520.52,"text":"阿右邊這個是不是也是你們做的?你慎重回答喔你前面就沒有辦法去認定了你不要第二章你跟我講說是或不是喔阿你也不行都不回答喔OK"},{"start":526.756,"end":548.202,"text":"這個除了看起來顏色不一樣,裡面的包括文字包括那個,看起來蠻像的這應該有問題,這個好像是在那個網路上可以買到的一個貼紙請蕭保官去查好,所以這個是不是你們的?不是好,那再問一次,左邊是不是你們的?審驗合格證是不是你們的?右邊你跟我講不是了嘛,對不對?你確定了嗎?"},{"start":553.82,"end":580.379,"text":"理論上這個環境部應該不會去貼高噪音的這種東西對啊低噪音比較好的東西才會去貼好不好那右邊邏輯的右邊這個叫做噪音審驗不合格證肯定不是你們我們當然不會去貼到現在不敢果定的去答覆我那就很奇怪了然後自己貼的東西當然那時候你不是當司長我知道也不是部長你要當部長任內不過這基本上"},{"start":582.012,"end":601.283,"text":"一個合格檢驗證基本上就是剛才陳副部長答覆我的對相關的排氣管我們有個認證的這樣的一個機制嘛我也必須在這個地方去貼相關的一個驗證的合格標章嘛是那個零牌嘛這個怎麼會有人去貼這種東西然後那我們要怎麼處理"},{"start":603.652,"end":627.155,"text":"你說貼右手邊證﹖對對對對對貼這個噪音審驗不合格證環境部假如有發現就應該去包括公開說明去這個發新聞稿跟澄清透過媒體其他環境部不可能去貼所謂的高噪音還是什麼這類這個是不合邏輯的概念是喔但是人家是貼高噪音不合格證啦"},{"start":628.477,"end":628.757,"text":"有沒有華哲?"},{"start":643.96,"end":671.96,"text":"這個貼紙大概沒有法則但是他不可以用行政院環保署車輛的這個不可以用這個侵犯到等於說我們的這個機關的那個嘛對公部門機關相關的名稱都不可以去使用對不對這其實已經觸及了紅線啊也是在挑釁公部門我們知道要怎麼處理嘛這挑戰公權力我覺得這個是"},{"start":673.281,"end":682.272,"text":"應該怎麼處理?我們來瞭解一下事情。怎麼炒除?他們去炒除怎麼炒除?這個有花折嗎?"},{"start":684.195,"end":712.77,"text":"後來這個公民交易法上面是有規定這個不行的那現在就請他下架不能再慢是因為你們後來還會有這個相關的改裝排氣管認證的制度嘛對不對明年現在是緩衝期嘛明年你們就要全面來上路了嘛是對那之前就有這個狀況現在未來一定會有其他的狀況在發生嘛是那如果說站在主管機關都不積極去面對這個事情這種事情"},{"start":714.836,"end":741.499,"text":"會持續下去啦那也對整個整個你們在推動這個相關的政策過程裡面也是一個衝突跟挑戰啦OKOK我們來解決這個問題啦好謝謝最後剛剛就是剛剛我特別要求就環境部還有交通部還有檢證署針對這個消音器拔掉的認定的一個科學根據是不是一個月內一定要提供給委員隊來做參考好不好好謝謝主席好謝謝"},{"start":743.26,"end":743.723,"text":"好,謝謝劉建國委員"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}