{"error":false,"id":["151576"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":151576,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151576","日期":"2024-04-22","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-26-13","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":13,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-04-22T12:38:06+08:00","結束時間":"2024-04-22T12:53:26+08:00","影片長度":"00:15:20","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5754819b6179c336225df5ecee89f150cff82116bdf94ca8dcb4691eb09bf4e29ad2c783433b19875ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳瑩","委員發言時間":"12:38:06 - 12:53:26","會議時間":"2024-04-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、交通部、經濟部、內政部警政署就「噪音管制與加速推動排氣管噪音認證」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月22日、24日及25日三天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":1415,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（12時38分）好，謝謝召委，麻煩首先請環管署的顏旭明署長。"],["薛部長富盛：請副署長可以嗎？因為顏署長今天另有公出。"],["陳委員瑩：公出是去哪裡？佛光山嗎？"],["林副署長左祥：因為立法院經濟委員會考察南部地區礦業區的污染防治。"],["陳委員瑩：他去農業……"],["薛部長富盛：經濟委員會。"],["陳委員瑩：經濟委員會。"],["林副署長左祥：經濟委員會考察。"],["陳委員瑩：他去經濟委員會考察，所以你來衛環委員會備詢？"],["林副署長左祥：代理。"],["陳委員瑩：好，部長，我覺得是這樣，我剛剛有看一下你們今天這個出席的名單，也順便替召委講幾句話。時間已經開始了嗎？我還沒有開始質詢，我們先講一下這個程序的問題好不好？因為我覺得今天你們來的這個官員名單，除了大氣環境司是司長以外，其他單位都是副的，特別是剛剛講到的顏署長，這個科技執法的部分是他們主管的業務，但是他卻跑去經濟委員會考察，通常本委員會安排的會議都是正的要出席，但是你們今天來的大部分都是副的不說，連主管科技執法的環境管理署卻是派副署長來，結果署長跑去考察，這樣像話嗎？我覺得你們很嚴重在藐視我們的召委喔！我必須在這裡做這樣的提醒。"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝陳委員的指教，抱歉，今天針對噪音這一塊，大氣司是主責的單位，所以我們大氣司的張順欽……"],["陳委員瑩：對，但我剛剛講了，科技執法的部分也是顏署長主管的業務，所以我也沒有偏離主題。"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["陳委員瑩：我點名他是對的，所以我在這邊也替我們召委講幾句話，他不要動不動就跑去佛光山開署務會議，旁邊還有專人奉茶，這個都有照片為證，然後我很想瞭解一下，你們的署務會議去那邊開，會議紀錄內容是什麼？因為我看那個照片，佛光山那邊發的新聞稿出來的照片，大家都是在遊山玩水、在看風景啊！你們要不要叫署長來交代？"],["薛部長富盛：副署長要不要稍微說明一下？"],["陳委員瑩：你不用在這裡回答我啦！浪費我的時間，我等一下還要關心噪音的問題，我只是說一連貫……"],["薛部長富盛：好，我來瞭解一下情況。"],["陳委員瑩：對、對、對，為什麼要先點名他？因為有前面那一段，今天考察他又不在，因為我覺得他不出席今天本委員會的會議是不對的，要考察應該副署長去考察，你不是代理，應該署長來開會，好，謝謝。"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝陳委員的指教。"],["陳委員瑩：副署長先回座，我先請教一下部長。"],["薛部長富盛：好，謝謝。"],["陳委員瑩：從你們提供的簡報可知，目前最嚴重影響環境噪音的問題，前兩名是交通及營建工程，所以今天想要先跟你們討論的問題，就是汽機車行駛中產生的噪音是違反交通法規還是你們主管的環境噪音管制標準？你們所收取的罰鍰是地方政府收去還是中央收取入庫？"],["薛部長富盛：噪音的部分是環境部來主責，當然就是到我們的基金裡面去，請我們張司長來回答一下。"],["張司長順欽：我想分兩塊，一個是車輛行駛中的噪音，這是依照噪音法來開罰，罰鍰是收到地方的那個……"],["陳委員瑩：好，謝謝。有關於取締交通違規，常聽到警察機關都會訂定績效指標，汽機車違反噪音管制標準有沒有訂定績效指標？"],["薛部長富盛：沒有，我們噪音的部分並沒有績效指標的概念。"],["陳委員瑩：你們未來會不會考慮訂定這樣子的……"],["薛部長富盛：因為目前案子的量說真的也還不是那麼高啦！但是為了有激勵的效果，科技執法這一塊倒是不用，因為它是用科技執法24小時在執行，但是我們跟交通部、跟警政署用人為方式的這一部分，事實上是可以來考慮，特別是民眾反映說……"],["陳委員瑩：所以部長你說目前沒有訂績效指標，不訂是因為案件不多？"],["薛部長富盛：事實上，案件相較起來應該不是那麼多啦！跟機車……"],["陳委員瑩：不是績效不好，是案件不多？好，沒關係，那你們有沒有檢舉專線？"],["薛部長富盛：有，有檢舉專線。"],["陳委員瑩：幾號？你們都不知道？幾號？"],["張司長順欽：0800-066-666。"],["陳委員瑩：0800-066-666。"],["張司長順欽：你在哪個縣市打，就哪個縣市環保局……"],["陳委員瑩：OK，好，謝謝。目前你們補助地方政府運用科技執法來取締噪音，不知道目前成效如何？署長不在就要副署長回答了，對不對？換你了，今年1到3月，全國平均每月取締多少件？有沒有統計分析？"],["薛部長富盛：陳委員，這一塊可否容後再向委員報告？你們有資料嗎？還是需要時間整理？陳委員，可不可以會後我們再請環管署向委員……"],["陳委員瑩：對啊！因為署長都出去考察，又去佛光山，我們也只能等會後了啊！但佛光山的事我問他3次，他都給我裝傻，不回答我，好，那你們會後整理給我，謝謝。","聲音的分貝值會隨著量測距離的平方成反比，因為是利用科技的技術，所以理論上應該會有一個客觀的標準，讓全國各地都可以公平地來執法，環境部有沒有訂定統一的測量及取締的標準？有沒有？"],["薛部長富盛：跟陳委員報告，事實上我們不擔心測量的距離，因為這個都可以回推回去，就如同剛剛陳委員講的，隨著距離的改變，它的音量會減少，但是我們現在都可以用人工智慧，一量就知道距離多遠，所以倒推回去，從排氣管發出來的聲音多少都……"],["陳委員瑩：好，那你們量測的數值大概是多遠的距離？舉發的時候有沒有提供數據證明？"],["薛部長富盛：跟陳委員報告，沒有所謂量測的距離，就是譬如說，我們在這裡固定一個量測設備，車子跑過去，它的值就會跑出來了，所以距離沒有關係，大概都OK啦！當然太遠的距離，它的聲音就會降到我們裁罰的譬如說80dB以下的話，那當然就沒有。"],["陳委員瑩：我這樣乍聽之下感覺有點怪怪的。"],["薛部長富盛：不會啊！從科學的角度。"],["陳委員瑩：好，沒有關係。我特別要提一下，立法院是一個噪音相當多的地方，因為常常有很多人違規帶麥克風跟大喇叭進到議場亂吼亂叫，分貝之大，剛剛羅智強委員也有說噪音會影響身心健康、會憂鬱，造成憂鬱、失眠、高血壓。"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["陳委員瑩：大家都知道，心血管疾病可能會容易中風、高血壓，那憂鬱、失眠，我這邊還有一些案例，就是嚴重的話，輕則影響工作效率，重則甚至會出現殺人、傷害別人這種脫序的行為，所以我想要請問，像立法院這樣嚴重的噪音，你們會不會主動舉發？會嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：室內噪音的部分，環境部目前大概還沒有在做。"],["陳委員瑩：如果有人檢舉，你們會不會來開單、開罰？"],["薛部長富盛：可是陳委員，我們現在用人工這種方法就是有這個挑戰，你說他……"],["陳委員瑩：你們有科技執法，你們可以在議場、在大院裝個固定式還是移動式的噪音監測系統啊！"],["薛部長富盛：假如將來我們噪音偵測設備量非常多的時候，可以考慮啦！但是現階段各縣市都不夠。"],["陳委員瑩：我覺得這不是量多不多的問題，而是有沒有需要的問題，我想每一位立法委員的工作都是相當重要的，因為要代表人民發聲。"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["陳委員瑩：我們必須在一個良好的狀態下，所以這種噪音其實會嚴重影響立委開會的狀態，也為什麼會常常有脫序的行為，我想噪音是很嚴重，所以在這邊也要請你們幫幫忙，也特別提醒，立法院的確是一個很好監測，然後開單的地方。","民眾都知道，超速越多，裁罰的金額就越大，噪音值超過得越多，有沒有罰鍰越多？目前測到最大的違規分貝值是多少？"],["薛部長富盛：我們目前測到最高的分貝是多少……"],["張司長順欽：測到100……"],["薛部長富盛：100dB。"],["陳委員瑩：最高到100？"],["薛部長富盛：對，100dB。"],["陳委員瑩：好，謝謝，那警察可不可以一經發現立即舉發？因為舉發完，這部車輛還是一樣產生噪音，所以我要請教的是，交通噪音可不可以連續舉發？這個問題法令有沒有規定？"],["薛部長富盛：噪音應該是可以連續舉發。"],["張司長順欽：目前來講，如果是警察舉發的話，還是要經過噪音的檢測超標才會開罰。"],["陳委員瑩：對，所以就是他可以連續舉發？"],["張司長順欽：可以。"],["陳委員瑩：可以，好。那噪音管制的標準規定有沒有舉發的標準方法？舉發的職權是警察還是環保局的人員？"],["張司長順欽：目前來講，環保局會攜帶設備就直接量測，有些會經過濾，就是他覺得吵，然後就攔下來檢測、超標、開單，就是環保局……"],["陳委員瑩：所以是環保局的人員？"],["張司長順欽：環保局就是直接稽查，因為警察機關也會覺得吵，但是沒有噪音檢測設備，所以他會拍照存證以後送環保局，然後我們會請車主過來，我們再檢驗。"],["陳委員瑩：所以你拍照也只能拍到影像，沒有辦法拍到噪音的音量。"],["張司長順欽：這個會有困難，包括民眾檢舉，我們……"],["陳委員瑩：所以未來這個就是你們要去討論、克服的地方。"],["張司長順欽：是。"],["陳委員瑩：接下來要請教的是有關營建工程產生的噪音，這個部分占了十一萬四千多件陳情案的24%，簡報中也沒有指出要如何處理，所以我要請教，勞動部的檢查員是依據職業安全衛生法及勞動檢查法在執行業務，對象是工作者，可是噪音大到民眾陳情，那就表示民眾的生活品質已經產生很大的影響，所以，部長，針對這個部分，你們要如何裁罰或舉發？"],["薛部長富盛：這個也是跟剛剛講到的機車一樣，噪音超標就要開罰，事實上，我們對營建工程基本上是鼓勵他們要自主管理，不必要到民眾舉發之後才……"],["陳委員瑩：所以是依照現場的音量分貝大小……"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["陳委員瑩：不是民眾自己在家裡聽到……"],["薛部長富盛：民眾聽到聲音很大是可以舉發它的。"],["陳委員瑩：但是你們要知道，我在這邊另外提出一個要提醒大家的。"],["薛部長富盛：好，給我們建議。"],["陳委員瑩：因為我學音樂的，我對聲音比較敏感，有一些聲音不一定是大聲才有影響，它如果一直在持續，即便它是一種微弱的，然後持續的……"],["薛部長富盛：比較低頻的……"],["陳委員瑩：對。"],["薛部長富盛：我大概知道陳委員在講的。"],["陳委員瑩：所以那個也是一種很大的干擾，我希望這個也可以列進去，好不好？你們去參考一下。"],["薛部長富盛：好，謝謝陳委員的建議。"],["陳委員瑩：最後，一般地方環保局人員都有正常上下班，但是現在很多營建工程的噪音都是夜間產生的，你們夜間接受陳情管道跟處理的人力有嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：因為這部分的實際執行面，說實在是地方環保局，夜間對他們來講，在人力上也是造成很大的負擔。"],["陳委員瑩：所以這個今天點出來，也是一個漏洞，所以也是要你們去補強的。"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["陳委員瑩：你們也有移動式的科技設備，營建工程可能利用這個方法去監測工地嗎？"],["張司長順欽：可以。"],["陳委員瑩：所以我想結論是這樣，因為今天的專報凸顯了4個問題，就是陳情多、裁罰少，追究民眾不追究事業單位，還有只知道運用科技去發現，但是沒有解決問題，再來就是重交通，卻忽略營建工程等其他噪音。本席在這邊有深刻體認，環境噪音問題是影響民眾生活安寧很重要的關鍵，環境部已經升格之後，應該要思考如何提升民眾的生活品質，原來環保署時代的思維，你們都是要重新檢討。所以我在這邊期許你們環境部的文官，不要因為部長要換到另外一個地方，就有業務空窗期和怠惰，未來本席也會持續關注環境噪音的問題，也要求部長要重視這個問題，然後你們也好好整頓一下立法院的噪音，謝謝。"],["薛部長富盛：好，謝謝陳委員的建議跟指導，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝陳瑩委員的發言。接下來請楊曜委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":252,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-13","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林月琴","廖偉翔","王育敏","盧縣一","蘇清泉","涂權吉","王正旭","楊瓊瓔","李坤城","林德福","林淑芬","洪孟楷","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝那那個副組長先回座我先請教一下那個部長啦好 謝謝那個就是說從你們提供的簡報目前最嚴重影響環境噪音的問題前兩名是交通及這個營建工程所以今天想要先跟你們討論這個問題喔就是"},{"start":225.361,"end":238.911,"text":"氣機車行駛中產生的噪音是違反交通法規還是你們主管的這個環境噪音管制標準那你們所收取的罰環是地方政府收去還是中央收取入庫"},{"start":242.153,"end":264.179,"text":"噪音的部分是環境部來主責嗎?當然就是到我們的基金裡面去嗎?我們張市長來回答一下分兩塊,一個是車上行駛中的噪音是依照噪音法來開罰,罰額是收到地方的那個"},{"start":267.759,"end":287.348,"text":"好謝謝那這個有關於這個取締交通法規常聽到警察機關都會訂定績效指標那汽機車違反噪音管制標準有沒有訂定績效指標沒有我們噪音的部分齁這個並沒有這個績效指標的概念但你們未來會不會考慮來訂這樣子的"},{"start":289.485,"end":311.405,"text":"因為目前的案子的量說真的也還不是那麼高啦但是為了有機率的效果科技執法的這一塊倒是不用嘛因為它是用科技執法24小時但是這個我們跟這個交通部跟警政署用人為的方式的這一部分事實上是可以來考慮特別是民眾只要反映說這個"},{"start":314.267,"end":333.846,"text":"所以那個部長你說那個目前沒有定績效指標不定是因為案件不多事實上是案件應該是相較起來應該是不是那麼多啦跟機車不是績效不好是案件不多好沒關係那你們有沒有檢舉專線有有檢舉專線有齁幾號阿你都不知道"},{"start":339.855,"end":342.117,"text":"今年1到3月,全國平均每月取締多少件?有沒有統計分析?"},{"start":373.186,"end":398.574,"text":"還是陳瑩這一塊我們容後再向委員報告?你們有資料嗎?還是需要時間整理?那陳瑩可不可以這個會後我們再請環管署?對啊因為署長都出去考察又去佛光山我們也只能等會後了啊但我佛光山是我問他三次他都給我裝傻都不回答我好那你們再會後整理給我謝謝"},{"start":399.814,"end":419.916,"text":"因為這個聲音的分貝值會隨著量測的距離的平方呈反比因為是利用科技的技術所以理論上應該會有一個客觀的標準讓全國各地都可以公平的來執法環境部有沒有訂定統一的測量及取締的標準?有沒有?"},{"start":421.697,"end":449.355,"text":"給陳瑩報告,事實上我們不擔心測量的距離因為這個都可以回推、回去就如剛剛陳瑩講,隨著距離的改變它的音量會減少但是我們現在都可以用人工智慧一量就知道距離多遠,所以倒退回去從排氣管發出來的聲音多少好,那你們量測的這個數值是大概是多遠的距離然後那個舉發的時候有沒有提供數據證明"},{"start":450.296,"end":451.417,"text":"我這樣乍聽之下感覺有點怪怪的不會啊"},{"start":479.057,"end":492.485,"text":"我特別要提一下這個立法院是一個噪音相當多的地方因為常常有很多人違規帶麥克風跟大喇叭進到議場亂吼亂叫分貝之大"},{"start":498.529,"end":526.867,"text":"剛剛有特別羅智強委員也有講說噪音會影響身心健康會憂鬱造成憂鬱失眠高血壓大家知道心血管疾病可能會容易中風高血壓憂鬱失眠我這邊還有一些案例就是嚴重的話他甚至輕則影響工作效率那重的話甚至會出現殺人傷害別人的這種脫序的行為"},{"start":528.108,"end":556.416,"text":"所以我想要請問說像立法院這樣的嚴重的噪音你們會不會主動舉發?會嗎?市內的噪音的部分我想環境部目前大概還沒有在做那你們就是那如果有人檢舉你們會不會來開單開法可是陳瑩這種我們現在用人工的這種方法就是有這個挑戰"},{"start":558.096,"end":569.042,"text":"你剛有科技執法你可以在議場、在大院裝個那個看固定式還是移動式就是噪音的監測系統嗎?將來我們這個噪音偵測設備量非常多的時候"},{"start":575.825,"end":598.993,"text":"我覺得這個不是量多不多的問題而是有沒有需要的問題那因為我想每一位立法委員的工作都是相當重要的因為要代表人民發聲我們必須要在一個良好的狀態下所以呢這種噪音其實會嚴重影響立委開會的這個狀態"},{"start":601.774,"end":627.944,"text":"所以為什麼會常有脫序的行為我想噪音是很嚴重所以在這邊也要請你們幫幫忙也特別提醒立法院的確是一個很好監測然後開單的地方好那民眾都知道超數越多那裁罰的金額就越大那麼噪音值超過的越多有沒有罰還越多那目前就是測到的這個最大的違規分貝值是多少"},{"start":629.558,"end":653.38,"text":"我們目前測到的最高的分貝是多少?我曾經測到100最高到100對100dB好 謝謝那警察可不可以就是說一經發現立即舉發因為舉發完這部車輛還是一樣產生噪音所以我要請教就是說交通噪音可不可以連續舉發那這個問題法令有沒有規定?"},{"start":654.986,"end":682.156,"text":"噪音應該是可以連續來舉發目前來講就是那個如果是警察舉發的話還是要經過噪音的檢測、超標才會有開罰對,那他所以就是可以連續他可以連續舉發可以齁,好那噪音管制的標準規定有沒有舉發的標準方法因為舉發然後還有就是說舉發的職權呢是就是說是警察還是環保局的人員"},{"start":683.807,"end":713.019,"text":"目前來講環保局就是會攜帶設備就直接量測有些會經過過濾之後他覺得吵然後就攔下來檢測、超標、開單所以是環保局的人員?環保局就是直接稽查那因為警察機關有些會覺得吵但是沒有噪音設備所以他會把拍照存證以後送環保局然後我們會請車主過來我們再檢驗他的所以你拍照也只能拍到影像沒有辦法拍到噪音的音量啊?"},{"start":715.76,"end":738.728,"text":"所以這個未來就是你們要去討論客服的地方嗎?因為接下來要請教營建工程產生的噪音這個部分占了11萬4千多件的陳情案的24%那檢報中也沒有指出要如何處理所以我要請教勞動部的檢察員是依據"},{"start":740.148,"end":760.222,"text":"職業安全衛生法及勞動檢查法在執行業務那對象是工作者可是噪音大到這個民眾陳情那就表示說這個民眾的生活品質已經就是說被產生很大的影響所以部長這個部分你們是要如何裁罰或舉發"},{"start":762.963,"end":773.912,"text":"這個也是跟機車剛剛講到的噪音超標就要開罰那事實上我們是對這營建工程基本上是鼓勵他們要自主管理啦"},{"start":775.214,"end":803.482,"text":"這是管理不必要到民眾舉花之後他才這個所以是依照現場的那個分貝的音量大小不是說民眾聽到自己在家裡民眾聽到聲音很大他是可以舉花他但是你們要知道我在這邊我另外提出一個要提醒大家的因為我對音樂我對聲音比較敏感因為有一些聲音他不一定是大聲才有影響他如果"},{"start":804.122,"end":819.598,"text":"就是一直在持續即便它是一種微弱的然後持續的比較低頻的我大概知道對所以那個也是一種很大的干擾我希望這個也可以列進去好不好你們去參考一下那最後低頻的"},{"start":820.639,"end":847.609,"text":"補一點時間喔因為一般地方環保局的人員都有正常上下班那現在很多這個營建工程的噪音都是夜間產生的那你們夜間的接受陳情管道跟人力跟處理的人力有嗎?這一部分因為實際在執行面的說實在是地方環保局那夜間事實上對他們來講在人力上也是造成所以這個也是今天點出來也是一個漏洞所以也是要你們要去補強的"},{"start":848.829,"end":869.291,"text":"那你們也有移動式的科技設備．那營建工程可能利用這個方法去監測工地嗎?可以所以我想結論是這樣因為今天的專報突顯了四個問題就是陳情多、財閥少那追究民眾不追究事業單位還有只知道運用科技去發現但是沒有解決問題"},{"start":870.492,"end":893.242,"text":"再來就是重交通卻忽略營建工程等其他噪音所以本期在這邊就是有深刻的提認環境噪音問題是影響民眾生活安寧很重要的關鍵那環境部已經升格之後呢那應該要思考如何提升民眾的這個生活品質那原來環保署時代的思維你們都是要重新檢討"},{"start":894.583,"end":895.083,"text":"好,謝謝陳瑩的建議跟指導,謝謝。"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}