{"error":false,"id":["151597"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":151597,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151597","日期":"2024-04-24","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-22-9","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":9,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[22],"委員會代碼:str":["教育及文化委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-04-24T09:23:37+08:00","結束時間":"2024-04-24T09:35:13+08:00","影片長度":"00:11:36","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb3bde077fdfe3927bb5a1f541440a910baeadb1108e4b844324bd0c126c431d72f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"09:23:37 - 09:35:13","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請核能安全委員會主任委員陳東陽、外交部、交通部、衛生福利部、農業部、海洋委員會列席就「我國周遭海域含氚廢水監控與因應」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算有關核能安全委員會主管預算(公務預算)解凍案4案。\n(4月24日及25日二天一次會)）","gazette":{"lineno":132,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（9時23分）主席謝謝，麻煩請陳東陽主委。"],["主席：有請陳主委。"],["陳主任委員東陽：洪委員早。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委好。主委，最近本席有看到一則新聞是關於和碩聯合科技的董事長童子賢，他也是之前有被傳出可能會是準總統賴清德最佳的閣揆人選，當然他最後沒有接任閣揆，不過他有提到缺電危機，坦承講說30年前他是熱心的反核人士，但10年前關注地球暖化的議題，陷入地球暖化跟反核間的掙扎，這兩三年慢慢想清楚，地球暖化才是人類的公敵，核能不是，因為核能可以是綠能的盟友，而非敵人。如果使用能源不當，將會造成無法挽回的地球暖化，摧毀地球文明；核能可以是一種技術，其安全係數就好像是航空業的安全係數，可以好好提升、好好控管。","這番話主委認同嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：是的，認同。"],["洪委員孟楷：認同哪個部分？"],["陳主任委員東陽：它可以非常仔細去維持安全，但還是有一些例外，如人為疏失、天災。"],["洪委員孟楷：任何事情、任何發電都有人為疏失與天災……"],["陳主任委員東陽：當然。"],["洪委員孟楷：燃煤有人為疏失與天災，燃氣有人為疏失與天災，而地球暖化是人類公敵，核能不是，你認同嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：我想不同人有不同見解，如果大家都看法一致，那麼社會上就有共識。我剛才在外面接受記者採訪時強調，我們還是要儘可能在某一個程度上達到社會共識。"],["洪委員孟楷：社會共識？2018年以核養綠的公投獲得近600萬選民的支持，這算不算社會共識？"],["陳主任委員東陽：如果社會有一定共識，那麼……"],["洪委員孟楷：超過半數的民眾出來投票，2018年以核養綠公投通過了，算不算社會共識？"],["陳主任委員東陽：社會共識是需要……像政論節目或者是公民團體都有不同聲音，聲量都很大……"],["洪委員孟楷：本席跟你討論技術科學，你跟我討論政論節目？主委，你是核能安全委員會主委，還是政論節目主持人？"],["陳主任委員東陽：我講的是社會上大家的看法。"],["洪委員孟楷：不是，既然來這邊備詢，就好好就事論事……"],["陳主任委員東陽：是的。"],["洪委員孟楷：核能可以是綠能的盟友，而非敵人，這句話認不認同？"],["陳主任委員東陽：綠能有比較嚴謹的定義，而核能其實是低碳能源，這是毫無疑問的，我百分之一百贊同。"],["洪委員孟楷：贊同什麼？"],["陳主任委員東陽：贊同它是低碳能源，有助於減碳。"],["洪委員孟楷：比燃煤低碳？比燃氣低碳？"],["陳主任委員東陽：當然。"],["洪委員孟楷：比火力發電低碳，更不會造成空氣污染，也不會造成地球暖化，是這樣嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：是的。"],["洪委員孟楷：既然這樣子，但現在的執政黨有推所謂2025非核家園，看起來2025非核家園有可能跳票，因為能源配比沒有辦法達成。另外，上次召委也質詢過，所謂行政院非核小組居然3年沒有開會了，你有沒有注意到這件事？"],["陳主任委員東陽：是的。"],["洪委員孟楷：非核小組運作要點規定應該多久開一次會？"],["陳主任委員東陽：2個月或3個月。"],["洪委員孟楷：2個月開一次會，必要時可以召開臨時會，這是非核小組運作要點清楚說明的。最後一次開會是什麼時候？110年4月28日，距離現在剛好、真的就是3年了！3年沒有開會！再來我想請教，在非核小組運作要點中，討論推動協調溝通的事務有哪些？特別是重要部分。我不問你細微末節，問你重要的部分，研究協調推動包括哪些？"],["陳主任委員東陽：包含最重要的推動中期暫時貯存設施……"],["洪委員孟楷：核廢料的處理？"],["陳主任委員東陽：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：還有什麼？"],["陳主任委員東陽：全民共識。"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有全民共識啦，拜託！裡面還包括核電廠的除役，核電廠的除役是不是很重要的議題應該要討論、應該要溝通？但過去3年沒有開會！過去核電廠有沒有除役？"],["陳主任委員東陽：有。"],["洪委員孟楷：有除役？今年核三廠一號機是不是7月到期，可能會停止運轉？既然過去3年有核二廠的一號機、二號機停機，今年7月又有核三廠一號機要停機，結果在那麼重要的核電廠要除役的過程裡，非核小組完全不開會，主委認同嗎？主委可以接受嗎？甚至在作業要點裡根本就沒有核安會，核安會被作業要點排除在外，你知道嗎？因為裡面規劃的還是原子能委員會啊，還是你的前身！這3年沒開會，組織已經改造了都還不知道，為什麼？因為3年沒開會啊！主委，上一次召委有質詢過，你有沒有再發函要求督促、建請行政院要開會？還是認為沒開會無所謂，反正大家不關心，雙手一攤沒我的事？主委說明一下上次質詢完之後有什麼樣的作為？"],["陳組長鴻斌：我們……"],["洪委員孟楷：我在問主委，您是？"],["陳主任委員東陽：物管組組長。"],["洪委員孟楷：除非你想篡位，否則我還是請教主委。主委，有什麼樣的措施？"],["陳主任委員東陽：我們有注意到這一點，但召開會議是行政院的……"],["洪委員孟楷：有沒有建請？有沒有認為有必要？剛剛我講了，作業要點第二點提到很重要的核電廠除役，您應該是專業文官，所以要給長官建議，也應該盡幕僚之責告訴長官過去三年沒有開會了，除非民進黨的非核家園喊假的、除非沒有打算要推動，否則過去3年大家不開會？薪水小偷！主委，不能只是點頭啦，你認同薪水小偷這句話？"],["陳主任委員東陽：沒辦法認同。"],["洪委員孟楷：沒辦法認同？但3年不開會是……"],["陳主任委員東陽：委員有非常多的……"],["洪委員孟楷：已經幾倍了？本來2個月應該要開一次會的，3年不開會，代表有18次沒開會！","今天討論到含氚廢水的排放問題，國際原子能總署3月時前往日本考察，從23日到26日又要再度跟11個會員國專家組成專案任務小組，以獨立身分赴日進行安全審查。本席希望一切都能安全，在安全監控下一切無虞，你們在今天報告裡說沒問題、安全，但我們沒有辦法到現場去看。過去這段時間我們有沒有爭取過希望能夠共同參加？"],["陳主任委員東陽：這11個會員國都是IAEA的會員，在我們的報告書跟Powerpoint裡有講，我們有4次專家實地訪查團，包含到福島。"],["洪委員孟楷：最近一次是什麼時候？"],["陳主任委員東陽：最近一次是去年10月，10月底到11月初由我們副主委帶隊，也就是前任副主委，所以我們有充分的交流。另外跟委員報告，我們會裡面有駐日專責人員，他跟……"],["洪委員孟楷：說實在話，國際原子能總署的考察以及11個會員國的考察，與我們自己獨立前往考察其實還是有很大差別。為什麼這麼講？可以看到的東西不一樣，可以清楚瞭解的狀況不一樣，我們能夠要求日方給我們看到的東西也不一樣，這點很明白，不用拿東西來搪塞。本席今天要清楚明白告知主委，在這些會員國裡，尤其以跟日本福島的距離、海域來講，有哪幾個會員國會比我們臺灣近？相對來說一定是少的，我們相對來講是比較近的。"],["陳主任委員東陽：韓國、中國大陸。"],["洪委員孟楷：對，沒有錯，我們相對來講是比較近的，和其他會員國比。既然其他會員國都可以申請，我們到目前為止有看到這狀況，是不是應該透過相關的外交管道爭取？當然，我知道中華民國處境不容易，但該爭取的、該要求的，我們當然應該要求！因為這對於臺灣2,350萬人來說是非常重要的！尤其我們海域那麼近，人家都前去看了，我們有沒有試圖表達？且不管任何管道都要表達，希望能夠共同爭取、共同參與！"],["陳主任委員東陽：瞭解。"],["洪委員孟楷：有沒有？"],["陳主任委員東陽：我們會努力……"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有？"],["陳主任委員東陽：我跟委員報告……"],["洪委員孟楷：怎麼努力？可以怎麼努力？發函？"],["陳主任委員東陽：IAEA是聯合國附屬組織，所以參加的都是聯合國的會員國，我們知道我們外交處境很困難……"],["洪委員孟楷：本席都講了，我瞭解我們現在中華民國的外交處境，但過去我們並不是沒有辦法參加國際組織，那是現在執政黨的一個狀況，但重點在於我們要發聲、我們要表達我們希望能夠前往參加。"],["陳主任委員東陽：瞭解，這沒問題。"],["主席（張委員雅琳代）：好，我們差不多時間到了喔，謝謝，謝謝委員，謝謝主委。","下一位請柯志恩委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":308,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-9","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","柯志恩","萬美玲","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","葉元之","陳培瑜","林倩綺","吳沛憶","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","范雲","張嘉郡","吳春城"],"page_start":251,"meetingDate":["2024-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1133301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133301_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請核能安全委員會主任委員陳東陽、外交部、交通部、衛生福利部、農業部、海洋委員會\n列席就「我國周遭海域含氚廢水監控與因應」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查 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主委我們最近本期有看到一個新聞是我們這個核碩聯合科技的董事長童子賢他也是之前有被傳出說可能會是準總統賴清德最佳的革魁人選"},{"start":34.23,"end":58.914,"text":"當然他最後沒有接任這個閣僱不過他有提到這個缺電危機坦誠講說30年前他是熱心的反核人士但10年前關注地球暖化的議題陷入地球暖化跟反核間的掙扎這兩三年慢慢想清楚地球暖化才是人類的公敵核能不是因為核能可以是綠能的盟友而非敵人所以如果說能源不當"},{"start":59.634,"end":72.738,"text":"使用能源不當將會造成無法挽回的地球暖化摧毀地球文明核能可以是一種技術安全係數就好像是航空業的安全技術可以好好提升好好控管這一方話主委認同嗎是的認同認同哪一個部分"},{"start":80.483,"end":91.29,"text":"他是可以非常仔細的去維持他的安全但是還是有一些例外人為疏失、天災"},{"start":93.376,"end":110.702,"text":"那撇開這一些 任何事情 任何發電也都有人為疏失跟天災嘛當然藍煤有人為疏失跟天災 燃氣有人為疏失跟天災但是地球暖化是人類的公敵 核能不是 您認同嗎我想這個是一個"},{"start":117.995,"end":137.997,"text":"不同人有不同的見解如果我們大家都是看法一致那社會上就有共識所以這個其實社會上我剛才在外面記者答詢我就強調就是說其實我們還是要盡可能的在某一個程度上盡可能的"},{"start":138.71,"end":163.069,"text":"達到社會的共識2018年以核兩月公投獲得近600萬選民的支持這算不算社會共識如果社會有一定的共識超過半數的民眾出來投票2018年以核養綠公投通過了算不算社會共識"},{"start":164.445,"end":168.207,"text":"本席跟你討論技術科學你跟我討論政論節目主委你是核能安全委員會主委還是政論節目主持人"},{"start":191.517,"end":218.378,"text":"我是講我們社會上大家的看法大家來這邊備詢好好就事論事是的核能可以是綠能的盟友而非敵人這句話認不認同綠能它有比較嚴謹的定義那麼核能它其實是一個低碳的能源那這個是毫無疑問的那麼我其實100%贊同"},{"start":220.936,"end":237.746,"text":"但是贊同什麼贊同他是低碳能源是有助於減碳比藍煤低碳比燃氣低碳比火力發電低碳更不會造成空氣汙染也不會造成地球暖化是這樣嗎是的來 諸位"},{"start":240.049,"end":264.344,"text":"那既然這樣子可是現在的執政黨當然有推所謂的非核家園啊2025啊那看起來非核家園2025又可能跳票因為能源配比沒有辦法達成嘛但另外一個部分上一次我們的召委也有質詢過就說非核小組所謂行政院非核小組的開會居然3年沒有開了你有沒有注意到這個事情呃 是的"},{"start":267.284,"end":286.224,"text":"非核小組的運作要點裡面規定應該要多久開一次會兩個月兩個月兩個月開一次會必要的時候可以召開臨時會這是非核小組運作要點裡面清楚說明最後一次開會是什麼時候"},{"start":293.724,"end":316.196,"text":"110年的4月28日距離現在剛好真的就是3年了所以3年裡面沒有開會再來我想請教非核小組的運作要點裡面討論推動協調溝通的事務有包括哪一些其中重要的部分"},{"start":317.725,"end":332.029,"text":"我不問你細微末節問你重要的部分研究協調推動有包括哪一些?它包含最重要的推動中期暫時儲存設施核廢料的處理還有?還有什麼?全民共識沒有全民共識啦拜託裡面還有包括核電廠的廚藝"},{"start":341.752,"end":356.601,"text":"核電廠的廚藝是不是很重要的議題應該要討論應該要溝通過去這三年沒有開會過去核電廠有沒有廚藝有有廚藝今年核三廠一號機是不是七月到期可能會停止運轉"},{"start":358.134,"end":375.322,"text":"那既然過去三年有核二廠的一號機、二號機停機今年七月有核三廠一號機要停機那結果那麼重要的核電廠要除役的一個過程裡面非核小組完全不開會主委認同嗎主委可以接受嗎你甚至在裡面作業要點裡面都還沒有核安會啊"},{"start":385.421,"end":405.42,"text":"你核安會被作業要點排除在外知道嗎?因為裡面規劃的還是原子能委員會啊還是你的前身啊所以你們做三年沒開會讓你組織都已經改造了你都還不知道為什麼?因為三年沒開會啊那主委上一次我們召委有質詢過"},{"start":407.335,"end":436.693,"text":"您有沒有在發函、要求、督促、建請行政院要開會還是認為沒開會無所謂反正大家不關心雙手一攤沒我的事主委說明一下你上一次質詢完之後你有什麼樣的作為我在問主委您是您是務管組組長好那主委除非你想要篡位否則我還是請教主委來主委有什麼樣的措施"},{"start":438.312,"end":445.219,"text":"我們有注意到這一點但是召開會議這個是行政院的有沒有見解"},{"start":448.641,"end":471.451,"text":"認為有必要我就講嘛剛剛作業要點裡面第二點很重要是核電廠的廚藝啊您應該是一個專業的文官要給長官建議也應該要盡一個幕僚之責要告訴長官說現在過去三年沒有開會了除非你民進黨的非核家園含假的除非你沒有打算要推動否則過去三年大家不開會薪水小偷"},{"start":477.762,"end":486.292,"text":"不是 所以不是只是點頭啦是認同薪水小偷這句話沒辦法認同沒辦法認同 那三年不開會是"},{"start":487.864,"end":493.186,"text":"最後今天討論的是含氚廢水的排放部分國際原子能總署有去3月的時候前往日本考察"},{"start":513.7,"end":538.982,"text":"昨天又從23號到26號又要再度跟11個會員國專家組成專案任務小組獨立身份赴日進行安全的審查本席都希望是說能夠安全在安全監控無虞的情況你們今天的報告都一直講是說沒有問題安全那但是我們沒有辦法到現場去看那過去這段時間我們有沒有爭取過希望能夠共同參加"},{"start":540.961,"end":557.47,"text":"所以這個11個會員國都是IAEA的member那麼在我們的報告書跟PowerPoint裡面其實有講我們有4次專家實地的訪查團4次包含到福島那麼我們最近是什麼時候"},{"start":558.177,"end":575.602,"text":"最近一次是去年10月10月底到11月初我們副主委帶隊的就是前任副主委所以我們有充分的交流那另外我跟委員報告我們會裡面其實有駐日的專責的人員"},{"start":577.282,"end":604.707,"text":"主委說實在話國際原子能總署的考察以及11個會員國考察跟說我們自己獨立前往考察其實還是有很大的差別為什麼這麼講我們可以看到的東西不一樣我們可以清楚瞭解的狀況不一樣我們能夠要求日方給我們看到的東西也不一樣這個很明白不用拿那個東西來搪塞本席今天很清楚明白告知"},{"start":605.407,"end":630.529,"text":"你說這一些會員國裡面跟日本福島相關距離海域來講有哪幾個會員國比我們台灣近?其實相對來講一定少我們相對來講是相對比較近的對嘛沒有錯嘛我們相對來講是比較近的嘛比其他會員國嘛那既然其他會員國都可以來做申請那我們到目前為止現在有看到這個狀況是不是應該要透過相關外交管道當然我們"},{"start":633.294,"end":656.426,"text":"中華民國處境不容易但是該爭取的該要求的我們當然應該要求啊因為這對於我們台灣2300萬人都是非常重要的啊尤其我們海域那麼的近那人家都去前往看了我們有沒有試圖不管是任何的管道都要表達我們希望能夠共同爭取共同參與瞭解有沒有沒有"},{"start":658.915,"end":686.143,"text":"我跟委員報告好怎麼努力?可以怎麼努力?發函?IAEA是聯合國的會員國的附屬組織所以他參加的member都是聯合國的會員國那麼我們知道我們外交的處境很困難本席都講了我了解我們現在中華民國外交處境但是過去我們不是沒有辦法參加國際組織那是現在執政黨的一個狀況但重點在於是說我們要發聲我們要表達我們希望能夠前往參加"},{"start":686.994,"end":691.806,"text":"瞭解這沒問題好那我們差不多時間到了喔謝謝謝謝謝謝委員謝謝主委"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}