{"error":false,"id":["151602"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":151602,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151602","日期":"2024-04-24","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-36-16","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第16次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":16,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第16次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-04-24T09:30:51+08:00","結束時間":"2024-04-24T09:41:32+08:00","影片長度":"00:10:41","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb379a0a17d5b868db27e796690f3f0abb2eadb1108e4b844324db96ec05ca036185ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"09:30:51 - 09:41:32","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長率所屬相關單位列席就「如何透過行政簡化、訴訟減量與科技運用以降低基層司法體系負擔之成效與精進期程」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":324,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（9時30分）主席，有請部長跟秘書長。"],["主席：請吳秘書長和蔡部長。"],["蔡部長清祥：委員好。"],["羅委員智強：部長，在談法官過勞之前，有一個非常重大的題目我要來就教於你，昨天大法官做死刑辯論，對不對？"],["蔡部長清祥：是。"],["羅委員智強：我看到有大法官問了一個問題，他問「一定要跟民眾的意見妥協嗎」，請問部長，能不能幫我們解讀一下大法官這句話是什麼意思？他的意思就是要跟民意對著幹的意思嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：這是大法官的見解，我們予以尊重啦。"],["羅委員智強：我要跟部長說，過去我們在司法法制委員會，我非常敬佩部長，你知道為什麼嗎？我看到我們龍介兄或很多委員質詢死刑的問題，我覺得言者諄諄，大法官是聽者藐藐，你那時候也有講到八成的民意反對廢除死刑，是不是？"],["蔡部長清祥：我們有瞭解到這個趨勢。"],["羅委員智強：對，然後也提出要司法自治嘛，對不對？"],["蔡部長清祥：這句話不是我說的。"],["羅委員智強：我有看到你們法務部有談到，至少你們講要尊重立法權嘛，對不對？沒錯吧？"],["蔡部長清祥：我們認為應該尊重代表民意的立法機關的意見。"],["羅委員智強：答對了啊，非常好啊！可是今天我要非常不客氣的說，大法官問出「一定要跟民意妥協嗎」這句話，那不就是大法官已經透露他的心證了，今天他就是要跟民意對著幹了嗎？我在這邊也要說，說真的，大法官進行所謂的死刑辯論，好像只剩下法務部今天能夠代表跟大法官所推的所有意見不相同的一個意見，能夠代表八成民意的就剩下法務部了啦，是嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：我們一貫的立場就是尊重法律的規定，現行的死刑規定，我們的立場就認為是合憲的。"],["羅委員智強：我要在這邊特別跟部長說一件事，也跟我們司法院秘書長說一件事情，大法官不是上帝啦，大法官如果司法過動，本身就是一種違憲的行為。今天八成以上的民意反對廢除死刑，我非常認同法務部說的，今天如果真的覺得死刑要被廢除，那也應該回到國會，讓國會來立法廢除，現在大法官全部都是民進黨提名的，請問民意的基礎在哪裡？憑什麼今天少數而且是待退大法官，大法官這麼長的任期，要廢除死刑早點廢啦，到了準備要卸任了還神龍擺尾、西施回眸，什麼意思啊！我在這邊也鄭重宣布，今天大法官如果侵犯立法、背叛民意，本席不會接受！我在大安區參選立法委員，我的政見就是我反對廢除死刑，我代表反對廢除死刑的民意進到立法院以後，今天對於大法官侵犯立法權去廢除死刑的話，我無法接受，將來在立法的時候，我想請問部長，大法官一旦做出死刑違憲的判決之後，接下來要怎麼辦？接下來怎麼辦？"],["蔡部長清祥：我們有準備各種方案，就看大法官最後憲法法院怎麼做解釋，我們都有事先預擬好了。"],["羅委員智強：如果說是違憲呢？"],["蔡部長清祥：我們有應對的方法。"],["羅委員智強：什麼應對方法？"],["蔡部長清祥：有各種方法。"],["羅委員智強：什麼各種方法？"],["蔡部長清祥：我們現在還在研擬當中。"],["羅委員智強：部長，抱歉，我對你都一直很尊敬，今天你不要在這邊損及我對你的尊敬喔！"],["蔡部長清祥：不是，確實……"],["羅委員智強：具體的方法是什麼，你不能告訴我嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：具體的方法，他認為該怎麼樣我們就怎麼樣。"],["羅委員智強：什麼叫該怎麼樣就怎麼樣？他就說死刑違憲啊！"],["蔡部長清祥：因為我們還沒看到最後的結論……"],["羅委員智強：我直接說啦，接下來立法院就要配合修法，對不對？如果大法官認為違憲的話，立法院要配合修法，把所有死刑全部廢掉，是不是這個意思？"],["蔡部長清祥：看最後的解釋文怎麼樣，該修法就要修法……"],["羅委員智強：我直接告訴部長，我絕對不會配合修法啦！今天委員會所有民進黨立委，你敢配合修法嗎？王世堅都講了，今天廢除死刑是崩潰社會法治的基礎啊！"],["蔡部長清祥：所以……"],["羅委員智強：我跟你講，我今天在這邊的這些話雖然講的重，我是為大法官好，我真怕今天憲法法庭的辯論，真正人民的聲音他沒有聽進去，他沒有聽進去，這麼重大的憲政爭議，過去大法官解釋死刑合不合憲？請問部長，過去的解釋？"],["蔡部長清祥：是合憲的。"],["羅委員智強：答對了！你今天要來挑戰過去的大法官、挑戰當前八成的民意、挑戰立法院的憲政尊嚴，羅智強是不會退讓的啦！將來如果進到立法院要配合修法，我第一個反對修法啦！你要說憲政危機、憲政僵局、憲政爭議，大法官，我跟你對著幹啦！我講白了就是這麼一回事。昨天聽到這句話，我非常的不爽啦！什麼叫做「一定要跟民意妥協嗎」，你是上帝嗎？你是上帝嗎？前面的憲法釋憲講得清清楚楚，是合憲的，現在有八成民意反對廢除死刑，而法務部也告訴大家要廢除死刑應該由立法決定，三重侵犯，憲法法庭還沒有把最後的解釋做出來，我在這邊只是先做預告，真的拜託、拜託、拜託、拜託、拜託，再拜託我們大法官，好好傾聽這些被害者的聲音啊！這些被害者、家屬在暗處哭泣的聲音，請他們聽一聽啊！這八成民意強烈的反對，請他們聽一聽啊！立法院的憲政尊嚴，請他們聽一聽啊！過去大法官認為死刑合憲的這些前輩們的聲音，請這些大法官聽一聽！如果這樣硬著幹，我跟你講，就是憲政危機啦！","第二個，我就要問有關法官過勞的問題，非常沉痛啊，今天必須用一個法官、一個書記官的生命來告訴大家目前法官過勞了，現在我們的司法，你可以看到案件大幅增加嘛，對不對？是不是？秘書長？"],["吳秘書長三龍：大幅增加。"],["羅委員智強：我們2016年到2023年，地方法院受理案件數從308萬增加到391萬，漲幅27%耶，但我們現在的法官人數從2016年的2,071人變成2,196人，只成長6%。請問秘書長，這些法官過去這麼多年來過勞的心聲，司法院有掌握嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：因為我們也是遵行總員額法啦，這中間我們當然也一直極力在爭取。"],["羅委員智強：我要跟各位說，去年司法院在立法院報告的時候是希望把員額提高到2萬2,000人嘛，對不對？"],["吳秘書長三龍：是。"],["羅委員智強：這是以10年期的期程來報告、來估算，今天的報告是估算需求差5,536人嘛，我想請問司法院，如果以短、中期，也就是3到5年來看，大概需要多少員額？"],["吳秘書長三龍：我們目前的期盼就是我提出來的這個5,536人啦。"],["羅委員智強：我跟秘書長說，今天司法過勞，痛苦的不只是司法人員，對於訴訟當事人也是如此，因為它會降低司法的裁判品質。你今天就是讓司法人面臨兩難，一個就是壓榨生命跟身體，對不對？"],["吳秘書長三龍：是。"],["羅委員智強：另外一個就是讓案件的訴訟品質下降。這兩件事情，對司法、對全國國人都不是好事情。"],["吳秘書長三龍：是。"],["羅委員智強：我知道上一屆有委員提案，但因為新國會屆期不連續的關係，所以上一屆的一些相關法案要重新提出。我這邊也說我願意當我們基層司法人員的後盾，所以對於中央政府機關總員額法第四條修正案，提高第三類司法院及所屬機關職員的員額上限，這部分我已經擬好了，也會開始連署，希望我們一起共同來終結司法過勞，改善司法品質，就從修法開始。"],["吳秘書長三龍：是。非常謝謝。"],["羅委員智強：所以也希望今天我們行政部門，包括人事行政總處、考試院銓敘部，還有法務部等相關單位，其實司法官過勞不只是法官而已，對不對？部長，也包括檢察官。"],["蔡部長清祥：對，檢察官就是司法官，另外還包括輔助人力檢察事務官，還有包括書記官、法警，都是我們要注意、要考量的。"],["羅委員智強：其實檢察機關也非常辛苦，我覺得案件減量也可能不只是透過員額而已，還有包括怎麼樣做案件更精緻的分工，這個部分我也會提出一些意見提供法務部參考。以上。"],["吳秘書長三龍：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝羅委員，謝謝兩位秘書長、部長。","接下來有請謝委員龍介發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":250,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-16","speakers":["鍾佳濱","沈發惠","羅智強","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","黃國昌","陳俊宇","吳思瑤","黃珊珊","楊瓊瓔","林思銘","吳宗憲","翁曉玲","賴士葆","傅崐萁"],"page_start":187,"meetingDate":["2024-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1133301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133301_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長率所屬相關單位列席就「如何透過行政簡化、訴訟減量與科技運\n用以降低基層司法體系負擔之成效與精進期程」進行專案報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133301_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.46096875,"end":3.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.14409375,"end":5.43096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.227843750000002,"end":12.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.09221875,"end":15.404093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.724718750000001,"end":15.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.95159375,"end":22.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.75721875,"end":31.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":31.58721875,"end":32.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.68409375,"end":36.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.70034375,"end":37.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":37.03784375,"end":40.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.307218750000004,"end":43.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.83409375,"end":49.322843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":50.43659375,"end":52.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.773468750000006,"end":58.165343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.806593750000005,"end":59.970968750000004},{"speaker":"SP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按照這個所謂的大法官如果認為違憲的話立法院要配合修法 把所有死刑全部廢掉 是不是這個意思呃 看他最後的解釋文怎麼樣 該修法我直接告訴 我直接告訴部長我絕對不會配合修法啦今天我會說民進黨的立委 你敢配合修法嗎我要事先都講了今天廢除死刑 是崩潰我們社會法治的基礎啊"},{"start":319.242,"end":344.203,"text":"在這邊我跟你講我今天用這些話雖然講得重我是為大法官好我正怕今天憲法法庭的辯論真正人民的聲音他沒有聽進去他沒有聽進去這麼重大的憲政爭議過去大法官解釋死刑合不合憲請問部長過去的解釋是合憲的答對了"},{"start":345.103,"end":366.342,"text":"你今天要來挑戰過去的大法官挑戰當前八成的民意挑戰立法院的憲政尊嚴羅智強是不會退讓的啦將來如果進到立法院要配合修法我第一個反對修法啦你要做憲政危機、憲政僵局、憲政爭議大法官我跟你對著幹啦我講白就是這麼一回事"},{"start":371.263,"end":394.83,"text":"昨天聽到這句話我非常的不爽啊什麼叫做一定要跟民意妥協你是上帝嗎?你是上帝嗎?前面的憲法的四憲講得清清楚楚合憲現在的八成民意反對廢除死刑而法務部也告訴大家要廢除死刑應該由立法決定三重侵犯"},{"start":396.972,"end":411.317,"text":"還沒有把這個憲法法庭的最後的解釋出來我在這邊只是先做預告真的拜託拜託拜託拜託拜託再拜託我們大法官好好傾聽這些被害者的聲音啊"},{"start":413.527,"end":430.352,"text":"這些被害者在家屬在暗處哭泣的聲音請他們聽一聽這八成民意強烈的反對請他們聽一聽立法院的憲政尊嚴請他們聽一聽過去大法官認為死刑核限的這些前輩們的聲音請這些大法官聽一聽如果真的硬著幹我跟你講就是憲政危機第二個我就要問我們的法官過豪的問題"},{"start":443.666,"end":469.59,"text":"非常沉痛今天必須用一個法官一個書記官的生命來去告訴大家今天法官過了現在我們的司法你可以看到案件大幅增加是不是秘書長大幅增加我們2016到2023年地方法院受理案件數從308萬增加到391萬"},{"start":473.719,"end":483.702,"text":"漲幅27%耶那我想請教齁我們現在的法官他是從2016的2071人變成2196人只成長6%請問秘書長這些法官過去這麼多年來的過勞的心聲我們的司法院有掌握嗎"},{"start":499.676,"end":515.849,"text":"因為我們也是遵行總言而華,那這中間我們當然一直極力在爭取,一直爭取。我要跟各位說,去年司法院在立法院報告的時候是希望把員額提高到22000人嘛,對不對?是,是。"},{"start":517.492,"end":544.725,"text":"這是以10年期的期程來報告來估算那今天的報告是說預算是估算需求差5536人那我想請問司法院如果以短中期3到5年來看需要多少人大概我們目前是期盼我就是提出來這個5536人我跟秘書長說今天司法過了痛苦的不只是司法人員"},{"start":546.331,"end":566.027,"text":"其實對於訴訟當事人也是如此因為他會降低司法的裁判品質你今天就讓司法人面臨兩難嘛一個就壓榨生命跟身體嘛 對不對那另外一個就是讓案件的訴訟品質下降這兩件事情對司法對全國官都不是好事情"},{"start":566.755,"end":588.981,"text":"所以在這邊我知道上一屆委員有提案但因為新國會藉其不連續的關係所以上一屆的一些相關法要重新提出我這邊也說我願意當我們的基層司法人員的後盾所以對於中央政府機關總原額法第4條修正案提高第三類司法院及所屬機關職員的原額上限"},{"start":589.641,"end":615.265,"text":"這部分我已經擬好了也會開始連述希望我們一起共同的來終結司法過勞改善司法品質就從修法開始所以也希望說今天我們的行政部門特別其他包括人事行政總署、考試院權序部還有法務部相關的單位其實司法官過勞不只是法官而已對不對部長也包括檢察官"},{"start":616.804,"end":639.145,"text":"對 檢察官就是司法官還包括了輔助人力檢察事務官還有包括書記官、法警都是我們要注意要考量其實檢察機關也非常辛苦我覺得案件減量可能不只是透過員額而已還有包括說今天怎麼讓案件更親自分工這個部分我也會提出一些意見提供法務部參考 以上"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}