{"error":false,"id":["151618"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":151618,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151618","日期":"2024-04-24","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-36-16","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第16次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":16,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第16次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-04-24T10:04:52+08:00","結束時間":"2024-04-24T10:17:02+08:00","影片長度":"00:12:10","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb392ed0c527a58b78a7e796690f3f0abb2eadb1108e4b8443206cf9b1052b938545ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"10:04:52 - 10:17:02","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長率所屬相關單位列席就「如何透過行政簡化、訴訟減量與科技運用以降低基層司法體系負擔之成效與精進期程」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":456,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（10時5分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請秘書長、法務部部長。"],["主席：請秘書長跟部長。"],["黃委員國昌：兩位好。2017年司改國是會議，改善法官具體的工作條件是我們做成的會議結論，也是蔡總統針對整個司法環境所做出的莊嚴承諾。2017年司改國是會議蔡總統做了這樣的承諾，2024年我們看到的是法官，包括書記官，因為工作的壓力，甚至過勞而離開這個人世。我相信大家看了心裡都很難過，我比較訝異，許宗力大法官也是我們的司法院院長，去慰問基層，我覺得是該做的，但他跟法官說，請大家多參加戶外活動，不要整天綁在辦公室，這句話表面上聽起來也沒有什麼錯，但是在法官實際的眼中，在他眼裡，他是不是活在象牙塔裡面，不知道法官實際的工作狀態，好像法官有自虐癖才不願意出去活動。對於基層法官發出這樣子的呼聲，請教秘書長，司法院有什麼回應？"],["吳秘書長三龍：我們當然要深切檢討，就像剛剛有委員質詢到，我們內部比如說像裁判書簡化，這個一定要來落實，因為如何發揮效力、如何裁判書簡化，這個還有相當努力的空間。"],["黃委員國昌：基層法官發出這樣子的怒吼，大院長後來有沒有把他的話收回去？就是司法院院長，我們法律人就叫大院長，司法院院長後來有把他的話收回去嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：他應該是出於一個善意，就是請我們要注意身心健康啦！"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係啦！因為我說了，大院長第一時間去慰問法官，我覺得這是該做的，一個司法首長本來就應該做的，他是整個司法體系、法官體系的大家長，但當他說出這樣子的話，引爆基層法官的怒火的時候，我覺得適度的回應或者是說明是必要的，再請司法院參考。","法官協會希望一個月內提出減輕法官工作負擔的具體措施，我拜讀了今天司法院提出來的書面報告，大概一半以上是說明你們過去做了什麼事情，大概也就是許宗力院長在他給法官的公開信裡面所寫的那些東西的摘要，但大家現在更在意的事情是，你們過去做了什麼事情，從法官的角度，將心比心，從他們的立場來看，這件事情顯然是沒有發揮實際的效果，要不然法官協會不會發這樣的聲明。司法院有沒有打算要在一個月內提出減輕法官工作負擔的具體措施？還是司法院認為你們已經提了？如果你們認為你們已經提了，提的內容是什麼？請說明。"],["吳秘書長三龍：法官協會的聲明我們非常重視，我們會儘量在一個月內，我們也有陸續，比如說，昨天也已經把相關的辦案期限酌予延長。"],["黃委員國昌：這樣好不好，你們在一個月內回應法官協會你們具體要採行的措施，同時提一份報告給司法及法制委員會全體委員，可以嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：可以，可以。"],["黃委員國昌：好。因為司法院在書面報告也說，機關總員額要用盡了，你們要積極爭取人力，但我看到你們爭取人力的數字，老實講我自己看了嚇一大跳，但我們先就事論事，從現在的狀態來講，因為司法院的書面報告是說現在預算員額還不夠，你們還希望繼續爭取，這個我們可以理解。但人事總處給立法院的報告寫的就是完全另外一回事，讓我看了很困惑，因為人事總處寫的是司法院到目前的預算員額他有多撥補給你們，你們平均缺額還有751個人，換句話說，人事總處的意思似乎是員額有給你們，但是你們沒有用，這個是怎麼回事？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這一部分我們昨天就人事行政總處書面報告的751人有研究過，這一部分我們處長可以說明。"],["黃委員國昌：請。"],["陳處長美彤：容我跟委員報告一下，其實人事總處的統計數字是來自於我們每半年要報機關浮動的缺額情形，包括考試、分發、列管，還有遴補中，還有就是等著要減列委外的工友員額，所以大概這樣子從108年到112年的平均數確實是751，但是要強調的是這751不是閒置員額，都是考試、分發、列管，比方說我們提報司法官考試100人……"],["黃委員國昌：所以按照你剛剛找的計算方式，現在員額全部用罄了，是嗎？"],["陳處長美彤：原因是就是剛剛秘書長報告的，今年是編到1萬4,508人，然後因為有新北，因為我們明年預計要成立北部的少家法院，以及我們到115年法官又報了……"],["黃委員國昌：我這樣講好了啦……"],["陳處長美彤：所以我們115年全部用完……"],["黃委員國昌：不好意思，容我打斷你，你們這樣給的資訊太破碎了，你們給的資訊太破碎了，你們現在有多少員額？所有的員額是怎麼分配的？還缺多少？然後裡面還沒有用的員額預計是今年或者是明年要用到什麼地方，可不可以給司法及法制委員會一個完整的表？"],["陳處長美彤：沒有問題，可以。"],["黃委員國昌：法律人做這樣完整資訊的呈現應該沒有問題嘛！"],["陳處長美彤：是、是、是。"],["黃委員國昌：今天在立法院的報告裡面完全沒看到，秘書長，這件事情請改進，好不好？"],["吳秘書長三龍：報告委員，附表二是我們目前提出急迫需求的員額。"],["黃委員國昌：我知道啦！那是你們開的需求，我必須要老實講，從我的角度上來看，這個數字非常的龐大，非常的可怕，但我們需要知道的是什麼，在現在的預算員額裡面，你們到底是怎麼用這些員額的？如何分配的？具體的數字公開透明讓司法及法制委員會的委員、讓社會知道，可以嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：可以啊！"],["黃委員國昌：包括調院辦事的法官有幾名？調到司法院辦事的法官人數怎麼分配的、有幾名？請把資訊公開透明的交到司法及法制委員會，可以嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：可以。"],["黃委員國昌：好，因為目前的狀況就以地方法院民事強制執行收案的情況來看，因為我在基層法院收到的呼聲是地方的民事執行處快要崩潰了，快要崩潰的理由很簡單，你看數字是呈現這樣子在增長的，從2020年的一百四十幾萬件，現在已經漲到一百八十幾萬件了，這個是收案的狀況；我們如果看沒有終結的狀況，從以前大概積案7萬，現在已經double了，到14萬，地方法院強制執行沒有終結的案件堆積如山，目前司法院做了什麼？"],["吳秘書長三龍：因為最主要像執行，就是保單現在也是執行的範圍，所以那一部分的案件增加很多……"],["黃委員國昌：我現在不是問你原因，我現在問你的是你做了什麼？"],["吳秘書長三龍：因為像現在尤其影響最大的是臺北地院，我們最近有趕快補充相關的人力。"],["黃委員國昌：你最近補充相關的人力，什麼時候補充了？補充了多少人？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這個我們……"],["陳處長美彤：報告委員，因為民事強制執行處主要人力是司法事務官及書記官、執達員，所以在今年提報的司法人員特考的需用名額，像書記官我們提報……"],["黃委員國昌：按照你說的，特考的名額什麼時候才會進來？"],["陳處長美彤：司法人員，明年，這是一般人力。"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！"],["陳處長美彤：對，明年……"],["黃委員國昌：我現在問的是這個堆積如山的趨勢不是今天才知道，不是上個月才知道，不是上上個月才知道，我現在請教你們的是你們做了什麼，結果你告訴我說你們特考名額增加，明年、後年人才會進來。"],["陳處長美彤：報告委員，因為提報考試之後，銓敘部同意之後，我們就可以聘……"],["黃委員國昌：我瞭解嘛！"],["陳處長美彤：職務代理人，有職務代理人到位……"],["黃委員國昌：所以你現在的人力有沒有做調配？還是你要把它放著，放到明年、後年新的人進來的時候再來消化？"],["陳處長美彤：沒有，已經在調配了，包括委外人力的引進，還有……"],["黃委員國昌：所以我剛剛具體的就問司法院你們到目前為止做了什麼，回答一個問題有這麼困難嗎？"],["陳處長美彤：這個可能我們民事廳廳長最清楚啦！民事執行、強制執行的人力問題……"],["黃委員國昌：一樣，針對堆積如山的事情到目前為止做了什麼，這件事情可不可以會後書面報告給全體委員？"],["吳秘書長三龍：可以。"],["黃委員國昌：可以嘛！"],["吳秘書長三龍：可以。"],["黃委員國昌：最後時間的關係，我要請教一下，2016年的時候換總統，司法院的正副院長那個時候就請辭了，2016年的時候，民進黨也是這樣主張，新總統上任，司法院正副院長應該請辭，那個是當初執政黨提出的訴求，現在520快到了，司法院正副院長要不要循慣例請辭？請秘書長。"],["吳秘書長三龍：這個我不便代替回答。"],["黃委員國昌：我知道你不便代言，但我公開提出這個問題，2016年的時候，現在的司法院正副院長正是當時的司法院正副院長因為總統換人而請辭，他們才上臺的，現在2024年的今天，要不要循憲政慣例請辭這件事情，我瞭解，秘書長不願意代答，但我認為這一件事情，現任的司法院院長跟副院長要以他們的高度跟臺灣社會清楚的說明，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員，謝謝部長，謝謝秘書長。","接下來有請陳委員俊宇發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":250,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-16","speakers":["鍾佳濱","沈發惠","羅智強","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","黃國昌","陳俊宇","吳思瑤","黃珊珊","楊瓊瓔","林思銘","吳宗憲","翁曉玲","賴士葆","傅崐萁"],"page_start":187,"meetingDate":["2024-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1133301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133301_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長率所屬相關單位列席就「如何透過行政簡化、訴訟減量與科技運\n用以降低基層司法體系負擔之成效與精進期程」進行專案報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133301_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":2.34284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.640343750000003,"end":19.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":19.80846875,"end":21.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.95409375,"end":33.696593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":34.337843750000005,"end":36.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.47284375,"end":35.181593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":37.57784375,"end":39.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.22284375,"end":42.80909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":43.75409375,"end":44.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":45.54284375,"end":47.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.635343750000004,"end":49.322843750000004},{"speaker":"SPE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請秘書長跟部長"},{"start":33.15,"end":51.24,"text":"兩位好2017年施改國事會議改善法官具體的工作條件是我們做成的會議結論也是蔡總統針對整個司法環境所做出的莊嚴承諾2017年施改國事會議蔡總統做了這樣的承諾"},{"start":59.949,"end":81.978,"text":"2024年我們看到的是法官包括書記官因為工作的壓力限制過勞而離開這個人事我相信大家看了心裡都很難過心裡都很難過我比較訝異"},{"start":89.406,"end":109.413,"text":"許中立大法官也是我們的司法院院長去維穩基層我覺得是該做的但他說跟法官說請大家多參加戶外活動不要整天綁在辦公室這句話表面上面聽起來也沒有什麼錯"},{"start":111.127,"end":136.146,"text":"但是在法官實際的眼中在他眼裡他是不是活在象牙塔裡面不知道法官實際的工作狀態好像法官有自戀癖自虐癖才不願意出去活動對於基層法官發出這樣子的呼聲來請教一下秘書長司法院有什麼回應"},{"start":139.778,"end":144.499,"text":"其實法官發出這樣子的怒吼,大院長後來有沒有把他的話收回去?"},{"start":172.987,"end":196.169,"text":"就司法院院長啦,我們法律人就叫大院長嘛司法院院長後來還有話收回去嗎?這個應該他是出於是出於一個善意啦善意的就是說要請要注意身心健康沒有關係啦,因為我說了大院長第一時間去問法官"},{"start":197.253,"end":218.994,"text":"我覺得這是該做的一個司法首長本來就應該該做的他是整個司法體系、法官體系的大家長但當他說出這樣子的話引爆基層法官的怒火的時候我覺得適度的回應或者是說明是必要的再請司法院參考"},{"start":220.993,"end":248.449,"text":"法官協會希望一個月內提出減輕法官工作負擔的具體措施我拜讀了今天司法院提出來的書面報告大概一半以上是說明你們過去做了什麼事情大概也就是許中立院長在他給法官的公開信裡面所寫的那些東西的摘要但大家現在更在意的事情是你們過去做了什麼事情"},{"start":249.999,"end":256.243,"text":"從法官的角度將心比心從他們的立場來看這件事情顯然是沒有發揮實際的效果"},{"start":258.208,"end":285.269,"text":"要不然法官協會不會發這樣的聲明司法院有沒有打算要在一個月內提出減輕法官工作負擔的具體措施還是司法院你們認為你們已經提了如果你們認為你們已經提了提的內容是什麼請說明我們會法官協會他的聲明我們非常重視的我們會盡量在一個月內就是我們也有陸續的比如說"},{"start":286.567,"end":306.714,"text":"這個昨天也已經把這個相關的辦案起線就走移了這樣好不好齁你們在一個月內回應法官協會具體要採行的措施你們要具體在採行的措施同時一份報告給司法法制委員會全體的委員可以嗎可以可以齁好"},{"start":308.154,"end":330.948,"text":"因為司法院在書面報告也說啦說機關總原額要用盡了你們要積極爭取人力但我看到你們爭取人力的那個數字我老實講我自己看了嚇一大跳但我們先就事論事從現在的狀態來講因為司法院的書面報告是說現在預算原額還不夠你們還希望繼續爭取這個我們可以理解但"},{"start":331.889,"end":360.343,"text":"人事總署給立法院的報告寫的就是完全另外一回事讓我看了很困惑因為人事總署他們寫的是說司法院到目前的預算原額他有多撥補給你們啊你們平均的缺額還有751個人換句話說人事總署的意思似乎是原額有給你們但是你們沒有用這個是怎麼回事這個這一部分我們昨天有就人事行政總署那個"},{"start":367.99,"end":385.564,"text":"其實人事總署它的統計數字是來自於我們每半年每半年要月報一次就是那個機關的這個浮動的缺額情形包括就是考試分發列管還有就是領補中還有就是要等著要檢列委外的公有員額"},{"start":386.445,"end":402.079,"text":"所以大概這樣子從108人到112人的平均數確實是751但是要強調說這751不是閒置員額他都是考試分發列管比如說我們提報司法官考試100人所以按照你剛剛找的那個計算的方式現在員額全部用慶了是嗎"},{"start":402.719,"end":406.101,"text":"我這樣講好了不好意思容我打斷你你們這樣給的資訊太破碎了你們給的資訊太破碎了"},{"start":427.386,"end":454.335,"text":"你們現在有多少元額?所有的元額是怎麼分配的?還缺多少?然後裡面還沒有用的元額預計是今年或者是明年要用到什麼地方?可不可以給司法法制委員會一個完整的表啊?沒有問題啊,是。法律人做這樣子一個完整的資訊的呈現應該沒有問題嘛。是是是。今天在立法院的報告裡面完全沒看到啊。"},{"start":456.243,"end":458.492,"text":"秘書長 這件事情請改進好不好"},{"start":459.508,"end":488.615,"text":"報告委員那個護表二是我們目前提出就是擊破需求的菸了我知道啦那是你們開的需求我必須要老實講啊從我的角度上來看這個數字非常的龐大非常的可怕但我們需要知道的是什麼在現在的預算原額裡面你們到底是怎麼用這些原額的如何分配的具體的數字公開透明讓社會法制委員會的委員讓社會知道可以嗎"},{"start":491.345,"end":519.995,"text":"包括吼 調院辦事的法官有幾名?調到司法院辦事的法官人數怎麼分配的 有幾名?請把資訊公開透明的交到司法法制委員會 可以嗎?好 因為吼目前的狀況 我就以地方法院民事強制執行收案的情況來看因為我在法院 基層法院說到的呼聲是地方的民事執行處快要崩潰了"},{"start":521.977,"end":533.566,"text":"快要崩潰的理由很簡單你看數字是呈現這樣子在增長的從140幾萬件2020年的現在已經漲到180幾萬件了這個是週案的狀況我們如果看沒有終結的狀況從以前大概基案7萬現在已經double了到14萬"},{"start":546.414,"end":566.463,"text":"地方法院強制執行沒有終結的案件堆積如山目前司法院做了什麼因為最主要像執行那個就是保單現在執行的範圍所以那一部分的案件增加很多我現在不是問你原因我現在問你的是你做了什麼"},{"start":567.699,"end":579.546,"text":"因為現在尤其影響最大的是臺北地驗我們最近有趕快補充相關的人力你最近補充相關的人力什麼時候補充的?補充了多少人?"},{"start":583.384,"end":600.396,"text":"報告委員因為民事強行執行處主要人力是司法事務官以及書記官、執達員所以在今年的提報司法人員特考的需用名額按照你說的啦特考的名額什麼時候才會進來明年這是一般人力"},{"start":601.457,"end":616.891,"text":"我現在問的是這個堆積如山的趨勢不是今天才知道不是上個月才知道不是上上個月才知道我現在請教你們的是你們做了什麼結果你告訴我說你們特考名額增加明年後年人才會進來"},{"start":617.932,"end":620.092,"text":"所以我剛剛具體的就問司法院你們到目前為止做了什麼回答一個問題有這麼困難嗎"},{"start":641.857,"end":647.52,"text":"一樣針對堆積如山的事情到目前為止做了什麼這件事情可不可以會後書面報告給全體的委員可以嘛最後時間的關係我要請教一下2016年的時候換總統司法院的這副院長那個時候就請辭了"},{"start":672.998,"end":690.644,"text":"2016年的時候民進黨也是這樣主張新總統上任司法院正副院長應該請辭那個是當初我們的執政長提出的訴求現在520快到了司法院正副院長要不要循慣例請辭請秘書長"},{"start":695.727,"end":709.039,"text":"這個 我不便代言好 我知道你不便代言但我公開提出這個問題2016年的時候當初現在的司法院正副院長正是因為當時的司法院正副院長因為總統換人而請辭"},{"start":711.201,"end":729.321,"text":"他們才上台的現在2024年的今天要不要循憲政慣例請職這件事情我了解秘書長不願意代答但我認為這一件事情現任的司法院的院長跟副院長要以他們的高度跟台灣社會清楚的說明謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}