{"error":false,"id":["151672"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":151672,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151672","日期":"2024-04-24","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-26-13","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":13,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-04-24T11:33:00+08:00","結束時間":"2024-04-24T11:40:52+08:00","影片長度":"00:07:52","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb340f39974bddc79efb903698ddfaa754aeadb1108e4b84432c918c540eac2d2945ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳亭妃","委員發言時間":"11:33:00 - 11:40:52","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請衛生福利部部長就「家暴零容忍-檢討112年家庭暴力防治法修正施行概況」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、邀請衛生福利部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會就「非法網站創意私房案件，提出兒少性影像防制具體作為、檢討報告，並就兒童及少年性剝削防制條例修正方向」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【專題報告綜合詢答】\n【4月22日、24日及25日三天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":758,"blocks":[["陳委員亭妃：（11時33分）謝謝主席，我們請衛福部部長。"],["主席：請薛部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["陳委員亭妃：部長好。部長，剛剛聽到你在討論所謂封網的部分，我想先跟你討論一下，現在的方法跟你未來要做的方法，到底你要從哪一塊下去加強，這才比較具體啦！"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["陳委員亭妃：現在衛福部在整個性影像的部分，是接獲民眾的申訴，我們才能啟動，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["陳委員亭妃：我們現在是被動嘛！"],["薛部長瑞元：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：我們並沒有主動去巡查這些相關的影像。"],["薛部長瑞元：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：未來我們會主動巡查，是這樣的意思嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：是，我們需要有法律上面的授權，讓我們可以來做這件事情。"],["陳委員亭妃：有法令上的授權，就是這一次要修嘛！"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["陳委員亭妃：所以修了之後，你們就可以有法令上的授權？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["陳委員亭妃：你們可以主動巡查。"],["薛部長瑞元：在技術上面，如果說我們警政署這邊可以做，那就由警政署來做，如果不行的話，我們就委外來做。"],["陳委員亭妃：沒有啊！所以我就說，你們不能現在講的跟到時候做的又是……法令的武器給你們了，然後呢？你們又在各個單位職權調整不好，一下子這個推給那個，那個推給那個。"],["薛部長瑞元：不會啦！"],["陳委員亭妃：結果最後沒有人處理。我現在就直接問，如果法令修了，武器給你們了，你們有法可以做了，那請問是誰要去執行？是警政署要去執行，還是衛福部要去執行？"],["薛部長瑞元：原則上應該是衛福部，因為它是法的主管機關。"],["陳委員亭妃：好，衛福部。"],["薛部長瑞元：但衛福部本身沒有能力做這個，所以我們想到的是，在短期之內可能要用委外的方式來做，給我們技術的支援，但是未來如果科技偵查法可以過，也許就……"],["陳委員亭妃：部長，你這樣講，關注的新聞跟關注的焦點，你這麼講，到時候真的修法之後，你們拿不出魄力來，我告訴你，你們會被罵翻喔！現在已經罵翻了喔！所以這個你要很小心喔！我覺得你不能再這樣的一個回答，也就是說，今天如果修法之後，你們要多久把這樣一個所謂的搜尋機制建立好？該給誰的，該給衛福部能夠有這樣的一個主導權，然後警政署加入，或是你要委外，委外要怎麼委外？這些在修法的時候，整個配套都要出來喔！"],["薛部長瑞元：當然。"],["陳委員亭妃：部長，再來，現階段接獲申訴之後，他還要去確認這些網頁資料有沒有涉及違法的影像。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["陳委員亭妃：修法之後就不用確立？"],["薛部長瑞元：要啊！就是由我們自行……"],["陳委員亭妃：自行確立？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["陳委員亭妃：衛福部自行確立？"],["薛部長瑞元：因為本來確立是有分層級，比方說是地方政府還是中央政府，以後這個部分確立就是由衛福部來做。"],["陳委員亭妃：由衛福部直接確認，好，現在的方式是我們拿到了涉及違法的，就像剛剛部長所說的，過去可能一下子是地方政府，一下子是中央政府，因為過去就是我們拿到資料，如果判定是的話，我要求地方政府去要求業者下架，現在沒有了，我們中央政府直接處理，是這樣嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：直接處理之後，如果看到業者不配合呢？"],["薛部長瑞元：我們就直接封網。"],["陳委員亭妃：就直接封網？"],["薛部長瑞元：直接封網，沒有配不配合的問題。"],["陳委員亭妃：就直接封網？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["陳委員亭妃：所以未來也沒有說像現在，我現在是在做對照，現在是你要要求業者自動下架，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，所以變成要有2道程序。"],["陳委員亭妃：好，未來我們修法之後是直接封網，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["陳委員亭妃：技術有辦法嗎？我們不要說話說得這麼大聲，結果最後我們的技術沒辦法配合。"],["薛部長瑞元：這一次的封網其實就證明技術是有辦法的，就是說我們給了這個行政處分，數發部接到之後，它要直接做了，所以這個技術上面應該是沒有太大的問題。"],["陳委員亭妃：這是因為眾所矚目，所以你們非做不可啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：對啊！"],["陳委員亭妃：對啊！如果未來這樣的問題產生，不是眾所矚目、不是媒體這樣一直追？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個我們還是做，還是把它封掉啊！"],["陳委員亭妃：就直接封嘛！"],["薛部長瑞元：直接就封了啊！"],["陳委員亭妃：這個很重要喔！現在衛福部都說因為我們的法有限制，所以沒辦法，修法之後……"],["薛部長瑞元：我跟委員報告，未來這個情形會是這樣，通常如果說我們封了，業者抗議的話，那就會走到所謂的行政救濟，但是這種案子通常不會，它就會變成它又要去換個網域就重新復活，所以它一復活我們就繼續封……"],["陳委員亭妃：好，部長你很厲害，你知道我下面就要問你這個部分，你直接封網之後，它就換個身分再上。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["陳委員亭妃：你有這個能力、人力，有能力跟人力去做這樣一個追逐遊戲嗎？有辦法嗎？而且如果今天它的IP位置在境外，或是它用所謂的隱匿身分，這怎麼辦？"],["薛部長瑞元：還是封啦！我剛剛講了……"],["陳委員亭妃：我知道還是封嘛！在你們封完之後，它去改變一個，然後你們再封，我是說你到最後有能力跟人力去做這個事情嗎？這個是我要提醒你的。"],["薛部長瑞元：我知道。"],["陳委員亭妃：我覺得我們現在既然要做，就要整套做好。"],["薛部長瑞元：對啦！"],["陳委員亭妃：這是我提醒你們的，這個一定會面臨到。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["陳委員亭妃：因為業者它隨時改變身分很快，可是我們的政府有這樣的人力跟能力去做這個事情嗎？這個部分我覺得配套一定要出來。還有另外一個就是，我們現在對於像黃子佼，基本上他已經持有，在他所有的資料裡面，他自己的一個相關硬碟，都已經有7張所謂的未成年照片，居然我們現在就把他緩起訴。好，我們現在要加重刑責，未來加重持有刑責，那請問如果加重，最後端在法院這一端還是輕輕放過，該怎麼辦？你又說這就不是你了？"],["薛部長瑞元：這是……"],["陳委員亭妃：所以我覺得這個就是一體性的問題，這是大家在整個公共議題當中要怎麼面對，所以我們希望從上到下，包括我們法務部，包括衛福部，包括所有相關單位，包括NCC、數位部，其實大家都是要整個全力來防堵，為我們的下一代，謝謝。"],["薛部長瑞元：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝陳亭妃委員發言。","接下來請楊瓊瓔委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":346,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-13","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","王育敏","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","李坤城","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","黃珊珊","何欣純","黃國昌","李彥秀","洪孟楷","羅智強","徐欣瑩","陳瑩","劉建國","楊曜","盧縣一","蘇清泉","鍾佳濱","牛煦庭"],"page_start":253,"meetingDate":["2024-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1133401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請衛生福利部部長就「家暴零容忍─ 檢討 112年家庭暴力防治法修正施行概況」進行專題\n報告，並備質詢；二、邀請衛生福利部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政\n署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會就「非法網站創意私房案件，提出兒少性影像防制具\n體作為、檢討報告，並就兒童及少年性剝削防制條例修正方向」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133401_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.7434687500000003,"end":7.388468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.10909375,"end":13.699718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.699718750000002,"end":14.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.15096875,"end":19.504718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.825343750000002,"end":20.719718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.05721875,"end":22.457843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.031593750000003,"end":24.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.31409375,"end":40.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.03721875,"end":52.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.28596875,"end":42.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.02846875,"end":43.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.31096875,"end":44.361593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.61471875,"end":44.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.54659375,"end":48.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.744718750000004,"end":50.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.20846875,"end":56.882843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.596593750000004,"end":53.744093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.815343750000004,"end":65.67471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.39659375,"end":63.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.92784375000001,"end":77.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.96409375,"end":84.03471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.16534375,"end":89.92409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.00471875000001,"end":87.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.26159375,"end":97.72034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.49721875,"end":95.15534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.99034375000001,"end":109.04346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.46596875,"end":105.78659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.04346875,"end":123.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.61659375,"end":114.24096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.97784375,"end":123.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.09596875000001,"end":129.49596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.11221875,"end":141.42659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.78284375,"end":130.91346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.71346875,"end":143.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.27846875,"end":144.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.56534375,"end":150.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.65284375000002,"end":157.52534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.62659375,"end":172.17284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.69221875000002,"end":169.77659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.54409375,"end":181.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.50034375,"end":182.73659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.73659375000003,"end":182.75346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.95596875,"end":185.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.97659375,"end":186.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.88784375,"end":186.97221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.97221875000002,"end":187.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.14096875,"end":189.97596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.15784375,"end":188.27159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.97596875000002,"end":190.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.70159375,"end":203.15534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.07096875000002,"end":205.85534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.22284375,"end":204.37034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.07471875000002,"end":229.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.70159375,"end":218.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.22346875000002,"end":226.64534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.09221875,"end":229.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.41284375,"end":231.74159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.26471875000001,"end":233.39534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.45846875,"end":236.71971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.37784375,"end":243.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.82471875000002,"end":239.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.98471875,"end":249.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.78096875000003,"end":253.17284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.59471875000003,"end":253.76346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.81409375,"end":253.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.96596875000003,"end":256.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.11346875,"end":258.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.40409375,"end":258.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.94409375000004,"end":260.96909375},{"speaker":"SP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對不對我們現在是被動嘛我們並沒有主動去巡查這些相關的影像未來我們會主動巡查是上的意思嗎?有法令上的授權就是這一次要修嘛所以修了之後我們就可以有法令上的授權你們可以主動巡查"},{"start":66.422,"end":83.756,"text":"技術上面的話那其實如果說我們的那個警政署這邊可以做那就由警政署來做如果不行的話我們就委外來做沒有啊所以嘛我就說你們不能現在講的跟到時候做的又是"},{"start":85.219,"end":108.45,"text":"法令的武器給你們了,然後呢,你們又在各個單位職權調整不好,兩名這個太那個,那個太那個,結果最後沒有人處理。我現在就直接問,如果法令修了,武器給你們了,你們有法可以做了,那請問是誰要去諮詢?是警政署要去諮詢,還是你衛福部要去諮詢?"},{"start":110.031,"end":127.974,"text":"原則上應該是衛福部因為他要有法的主管機關衛福部本身沒有能力做這個所以我們想到的是說在短期之內可能要用委外的方式來做給我們技術的支援但是未來如果說這個科技偵查法"},{"start":128.815,"end":143.232,"text":"你這樣講齁,這個關注的新聞跟關注的焦點齁,你這麼講,到時候真的修法之後,你們拿不出魄力來,我告訴你,你們被罵翻喔,現在已經罵翻了喔"},{"start":144.632,"end":169.122,"text":"所以這個你要很小心喔我覺得你不能再這樣的一個回答就是說今天如果修法之後你們要再多久把這樣的一個所謂的搜尋機制建立好該給誰的該給衛福部能夠有這樣的一個主導權然後警政署加入或是你要委外委外要怎麼委外你這些修法的時候整個配套都要出來喔當然這個"},{"start":170.362,"end":181.385,"text":"部長然後再來現階段接受到申訴之後他還要去確認這些網頁資料有沒有涉及違法的影像"},{"start":183.034,"end":202.606,"text":"那以後修法之後就不用確立?要啊,就是由我們自行確立,為服部自行確立因為本來的話是這個確立有分層級啦,比方說是地方政府還是中央政府那現在以後這一個部分的話確立就是由"},{"start":203.126,"end":231.504,"text":"有衛福部,直接確認。」來,我們現在的方式是我們拿到了涉及這個違法就像剛剛我們部長所說的過去可能一下子是地方政府、一下子中央政府未來全部因為過去就是我們拿到資料如果判定是的話我要求地方政府去要求業者下架那現在沒有了我們中央政府直接處理是這樣嗎?好,直接處理之後"},{"start":232.344,"end":260.611,"text":"那我們如果看到業者不配合呢?我們就直接封網就直接封網?對,直接封網,沒有配不配合的問題就直接封網,所以未來也沒有說像現在我現在是在做對照現在是你要要求業者自動下架對不對?好,未來我們修法之後是直接封網對不對?好,技術有辦法嗎?"},{"start":262.527,"end":287.312,"text":"技術有辦法嗎?各位我們的技術沒辦法配合這一次的封網其實就證明說技術是有辦法的就是說我們給了這個言論處分那速發部接到之後的話他就直接做了所以這個技術上面應該是沒有太大的問題這是因為眾所矚目啊"},{"start":288.467,"end":298.508,"text":"所以你們非做不可啊對啊那如果未來未來這樣的問題產生不是眾所矚目不是媒體這樣一直追"},{"start":299.631,"end":318.44,"text":"這我們還是做,還是把它封掉啊。就直接封嗎?對,直接就封了啊。這個很重要喔。我們不希望未來,現在衛福部都說因為我們的法有限制,所以沒辦法。好,修法之後。我跟委員報告,現在未來的話,那這個情形會這樣。"},{"start":319.961,"end":346.266,"text":"通常如果說我們封了業者抗議的話那就會走到所謂的行政救濟但是這種案子的話通常不會他就會變成說他又要去換個網域就重新復活所以他一復活我們就繼續封部長你很厲害你知道我下面就要問你這一個你直接封網之後他就換個身份再上那你有這個能力、人力"},{"start":347.754,"end":363.295,"text":"能力跟人力去做這樣的一個追逐遊戲嗎?有辦法嗎?而且如果說他今天他的IP位置在境外或是他用所謂的隱匿身份那這怎麼辦?"},{"start":364.641,"end":377.886,"text":"還是封啦,如果是,我剛剛講的。不是,我知道還是封嘛,他還是封完之後,他去改變一個,然後你們再封。我是說你到最後,有能力跟人力去做這個事情嗎?"},{"start":379.574,"end":404.451,"text":"這就是我提醒你的,我覺得我們現在既然要做,要整個做就好了這是我提醒你們的,這個一定會面臨到因為業者一個,他隨時改變身份很快可是我們的政府有這樣的人力跟能力去做這個事嗎這個部分我覺得配套一定要出來所以還有另外一個就是"},{"start":405.131,"end":431.657,"text":"我們現在對於像黃子江他基本上已經持有在他所有的資料裡面他自己的一個相關硬碟都已經有7張所謂的未成年未成年的這個照片那居然我們現在就把他還其數號我們現在加重刑責未來嘛加重持有刑責好那請問"},{"start":433.359,"end":437.384,"text":"那如果加重最後端在法院這一端那該怎麼辦還是輕輕翻過該怎麼辦"},{"start":441.349,"end":466.25,"text":"你又說這都不是你啊所以我覺得這個就是一體性的問題我覺得這是大家在這整個公共議題當中要怎麼面對所以我們也希望從上到下包括我們法務部包括衛福部包括所有相關單位包括NCC數位部其實大家都是要整個全力來防堵為我們的下一代謝謝"},{"start":468.427,"end":471.158,"text":"好,謝謝陳廷飛委員發言接下來請楊瓊英委員發言"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}