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11:52:18","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21案。\n二、審查：\n（一）行政院函請審議「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員黃捷等17人擬具「工廠管理輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員黃建賓等17人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）本院委員林思銘等23人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十二條及第二十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）本院委員王美惠等18人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第三十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）本院委員邱議瑩等16人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第三十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）本院委員蔡易餘等20人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（八）本院委員馬文君等18人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四及第三十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）本院委員鍾佳濱等17人擬具「工廠管理輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十）本院委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n【4月24日及25日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":770,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（11時47分）主席，謝謝，麻煩請王美花部長。"],["主席：來，請部長。"],["王部長美花：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，我想我還是來跟您就教理念跟觀念、立場的部分。本席看到前天你們有前往中南部舉辦中小企業的座談，會中你特別提到現在減碳和智慧化轉型是重要的項目。"],["王部長美花：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：甚至好像你有提到一個例子，說現在如果跟其他企業溝通的話，一個小時有40分鐘都在討論怎麼樣減碳，是不是？"],["王部長美花：這個是我到其他國家實際碰到的情形。"],["洪委員孟楷：那您知道現在國內排碳大戶前十大有哪些嗎？"],["王部長美花：這當然有相關的清單，包括中鋼、台積電、中油、台塑和水泥廠等等。"],["洪委員孟楷：最大的排碳大戶是哪個產業？你知道嗎？"],["王部長美花：石化產業是最大的。"],["洪委員孟楷：電力跟相關的燃氣供應業啦！排碳大戶前十大包括台電。您自己也講了，減碳是現在的顯學，但是我們背道而馳，2025年反而要增加排碳的比例，80%以上是火力發電，這個您怎麼看？"],["王部長美花：80%火力發電，火力發電有天然氣跟煤……"],["洪委員孟楷：會不會有一點點自相矛盾？"],["王部長美花：在短期之內我們是低碳，所以增加天然氣的時候可以減煤……"],["洪委員孟楷：哪裡低碳？現在是增碳，增加排碳啊！"],["王部長美花：我們增加天然氣，天然氣的碳排是煤的一半。"],["洪委員孟楷：增加所有能源配比的排碳！"],["王部長美花：沒有！所以為什麼我們要積極增加再生能源，就是希望能夠……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，這個不好笑！這不是一個好笑的議題，因為你講的，現在減碳是顯學，但是我們的台電反而是背道而馳。","最近也有媒體去訪問和碩聯合科技董事長童子賢，他提到過去自己是反核人士，但是十年來關注地球暖化的議題，陷入暖化跟反核的掙扎，這兩年慢慢想清楚，說地球暖化才是人類的公敵，核能不是，核能可能是綠能的盟友，而非敵人。你認同這句話嗎？"],["王部長美花：我想大家的意見我們都尊重。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以尊重是怎麼樣？"],["王部長美花：我們都尊重大家的意見。"],["洪委員孟楷：對於他說核能可能是綠能的盟友，你覺得這句話有講得不對嗎？"],["王部長美花：這是童……"],["洪委員孟楷：地球暖化是人類的公敵，核能不是，這句話你覺得有不對嗎？"],["王部長美花：他提到暖化的重要性。"],["洪委員孟楷：是暖化的嚴重性，不是重要性。"],["王部長美花：重要性！"],["洪委員孟楷：暖化的嚴重性！"],["王部長美花：是、是、是，這個要去重視。"],["洪委員孟楷：最後本席只是要請教，今天早上有一些委員召開記者會，提出核能研議的倡議，你提到這要全民共識，是不是？"],["王部長美花：我想核能在臺灣一個最大的問題就是社會共識是非常重要的。"],["洪委員孟楷：社會共識當然重要，那我請教，2018年公投通過以核養綠，這算不算是全民共識？"],["王部長美花：這是按照當時公投的規定來的一個……"],["洪委員孟楷：這算不算全民共識？"],["王部長美花：當時是多數的一個見解，沒有錯。"],["洪委員孟楷：當時是多數，沒有錯嘛！"],["王部長美花：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：那之後經濟部有因為這樣子的多數、參考這樣子的做法，而去採用以核養綠嗎？並沒有！"],["王部長美花：事實上我們對……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以其實你講全民共識根本也是一個幌子啊！當時即便是通過了公投，經濟部也沒有因為這樣子而去採用，所以你現在講全民共識，其實根本也沒有尊重過全民的意思啊！"],["王部長美花：每一個公投的效力……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長已經要卸任了，但本席在這4分鐘只是拿你自己的話、拿你的邏輯來請教，過去到現在這兩、三年的時間，到底民進黨政府、到底經濟部、到底我們的能源政策是不是背道而馳、有沒有邏輯矛盾？確實是有！我們沒有不支持台電，台電第一線的基層人員非常的辛苦，本席的選區有山區、有海邊、有都市區，我們常常也都跟台電的人員在一起，所以要比支持台電基層工作人員，我們比誰都支持，但是如果錯誤的能源政策不改變的話，只會累死基層工作人員，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝洪孟楷委員。","接下來我們請黃捷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":186,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-9","speakers":["邱議瑩","黃建賓","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","林思銘","林岱樺","張嘉郡","鄭天財Sra 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人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」\n案、(八)本院委員馬文君等18人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四及第三十一條條文修正\n草案」案、(九)本院委員鍾佳濱等17人擬具「工廠管理輔導法部分條文修正草案」案、(十)本院\n委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正\n草案」案、(十一)本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及\n第三十九條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1133301_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.8153437500000003,"end":4.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.53659375,"end":5.228468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.539718750000002,"end":16.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.90596875,"end":28.21221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.515968750000003,"end":29.410343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.410343750000003,"end":29.832218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.832218750000003,"end":30.794093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.13159375,"end":38.134718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.80971875,"end":39.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.34971875,"end":44.462843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.462843750000005,"end":44.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.83409375,"end":45.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.985968750000005,"end":50.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.28034375,"end":52.039718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.74846875,"end":56.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.73971875,"end":55.07721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.595968750000004,"end":60.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.40971875,"end":61.017218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.05096875,"end":61.40534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.13096875,"end":69.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.41659375,"end":72.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.32346875,"end":73.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.65221875,"end":77.50409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.21284375,"end":78.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.00596875000001,"end":80.10284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.72721875,"end":83.98409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.69284375000001,"end":84.89534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.40159375,"end":85.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.24534375,"end":87.59534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.15221875,"end":89.94096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.97471875000001,"end":92.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.84346875,"end":98.14221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.46284375,"end":100.72409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.17971875,"end":101.77034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.46221875,"end":104.40284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.62221875,"end":107.20409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.66409375,"end":108.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.40221875,"end":115.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.90346875,"end":116.31659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.12659375000001,"end":122.40846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.17721875000001,"end":118.59471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.32846875000001,"end":124.53471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.67846875000001,"end":122.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.61909375,"end":131.77409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.64784375000002,"end":133.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.10284375,"end":136.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.35971875,"end":139.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.32971875,"end":146.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.14721875,"end":149.39159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.50971875000002,"end":151.95659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.26034375,"end":162.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.52034375000002,"end":164.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.56221875,"end":166.85721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.39721875,"end":169.77659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.01284375,"end":170.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.10971875,"end":172.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.72971875000002,"end":174.33284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.34971875000002,"end":174.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.24409375000002,"end":175.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.95284375,"end":179.66534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.28971875000002,"end":182.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.14159375,"end":183.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.96846875,"end":184.03596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.03596875000002,"end":184.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.67721875,"end":184.82909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.82909375,"end":184.84596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.84596875000003,"end":188.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.33471875,"end":190.49909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":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