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Kacaw委員：（11時49分）主席、各位委員。有請次長，還有法律事務司司長。"],["主席：常次嘛？"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：對。"],["主席：次長請。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：常次。部長休息一下。"],["主席：鄭天財委員非常體貼，次長就讓你問。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：今天審查陸海空軍懲罰法、軍人權益事件處理法草案。陸海空軍懲罰法是承襲民國19年當時的體例，這個確實要大修特修。但是我看你們花了很長的時間開了會議，然後送到立法院的條文，我再談一下，這裡面特別提到「軍人應受懲罰行為區分『勤務上』與『勤務外』」，這是正確的方向。正確的方向，應該要這樣做。","就以這兩條，現行條文第十五條跟現在行政院版送來的第六條相較，原來第十五條現行條文「現役軍人有下列違失行為之一者，應受懲罰」，有好幾款；現在送來的第六條修正版「軍人非執行勤務而有下列行為之一者，為勤務外違紀行為，仍應受懲罰」，列了7款。請問「仍應受懲罰」，違反這7款要如何懲罰？"],["沈司長世偉：我是法律司司長，跟委員報告，這就是懲罰的事由。第六條規範的是勤務外，譬如他放假在外面，如果故意觸犯刑事法律，他放假在外面吸毒、酒駕、實施性騷擾等等，都可以當作懲罰的事由。現行條文第十五條列了很多款次，我們也查考了一些資料，從民國3年的什麼海軍艦艇規則、陸軍的等等規則，最多有到六十、七十款的，列了非常多，其實是列不完的。所以以後的規範就是，第五條就是勤務內的，你在執勤的時候、在營區的時候該遵守的紀律，怠忽職責，那都是懲罰的事由，我不用一一地列舉走路丟垃圾，或是隨地吐痰、不遵守飯廳秩序或不怎麼樣等，我列不完，在勤務內的我就用勤務內的方式來處罰。如果是勤務外的，你不是執勤，放假回家、休假，但是你不可以去觸犯我們國家的法律，不可以在營外吸毒、不可以酒駕、不可以性騷擾。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：對啊！如何懲罰？"],["沈司長世偉：就是按照裡面的相關規定，查完了之後由權責長官來做懲罰，輕的直接就懲罰，重的會聽一聽那個懲罰諮詢會的意見，權責長官來做處罰。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：次長、司長，問題就在這裡，既然要修法就要修得完備，怎麼樣的情形要撤職、怎麼樣的情形要記過還是要罰站或者做什麼，所以還是要回到你相關的授權規定，沒有授權啦！你訂在一些行政規則或者要點、注意事項裡面，目前的作法還是跟過去一樣啊！尤其涉及到撤職是很嚴重的，所以不應該訂一些相關的行政規則去決定，甚至於這個會議，你們叫做什麼？審議會……"],["沈司長世偉：諮詢會。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：諮詢會來決定，所以這個部分還要再精進，尤其是涉及到撤職，對不對？"],["沈司長世偉：是，我瞭解委員你的意思。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：像你們現在酒駕當然不應該，本來就有相關的法律去處理，但要達到是不是撤職，你們應該要明定，尤其撤職這個部分涉及到的部分，過去比較少討論。因為是軍人，基本上還是涉及到工作權，所以這個部分請次長還有法律事務司，怎麼樣把陸海空軍懲罰法未來再繼續地修正，好不好？"],["楊次長基榮：我們下去會繼續努力。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鄭天財委員，我們後面會開公聽會，可以邀請你來參與、提供寶貴意見。司長請回、次長請回。","接下來進行詢答委員是沈發惠委員、沈發惠委員、沈發惠委員不在。","許宇甄委員、許宇甄委員、許宇甄委員不在。","萬美玲委員、萬美玲委員、萬美玲委員不在。","鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員不在。","接下來進行詢答的委員是吳宗憲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":304,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-35,36-1","speakers":["王定宇","馬文君","林楚茵","沈伯洋","黃國昌","羅美玲","黃仁","徐巧芯","陳永康","陳俊宇","羅智強","林思銘","洪申翰","翁曉玲","陳冠廷","吳思瑤","林憶君","鄭天財Sra 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