{"error":false,"id":["151734"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":151734,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151734","日期":"2024-04-25","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-36-17","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":17,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-04-25T10:13:29+08:00","結束時間":"2024-04-25T10:26:53+08:00","影片長度":"00:13:24","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37a05b44d500ce1502c2edfe8f0c3dc0e44e652c0c420c23c68e374cd8c4bed0804320d2fba224b15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"10:13:29 - 10:26:53","會議時間":"2024-04-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查\n（一）民進黨黨團擬具「立法院組織法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員高金素梅等23人擬具「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法院組織法第三條、第五條及第三十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員高金素梅等17人擬具「立法院組織法第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n二、繼續審查\n（一）民進黨黨團擬具「立法委員行為法第七條之一及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法委員行為法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員范雲等18人擬具「立法委員行為法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n三、繼續審查\n（一）民進黨黨團擬具「立法院議事規則第四十七條、第四十八條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法院議事規則第九條、第二十二條及第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n四、\n（一）繼續審查民進黨黨團擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）繼續審查委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（三）繼續審查委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法增訂第二十八條之三及第二十八條之四條文草案」案。\n（四）繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）繼續審查委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）審查委員羅智強等22人擬具「立法院職權行使法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【第四案（六）如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","gazette":{"lineno":356,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（10時13分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請秘書長。"],["主席：請周秘書長，謝謝。"],["周秘書長萬來：黃委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：秘書長你好，關於整個國會改革的法案，在運作上我們當然希望核心是有關於國會聽證調查制度的建立，以及人事同意權強化的審查，這是我認為這次國會改革的重中之重，在這兩個重點核心條文之外，我們要外衍去修其他的條文，我覺得當然也應該可以考慮啦，但我們在修條文以前，有一些事實跟法律面必須要先確定，因為這次相關所提出來的，不管是委員還是黨團所提的版本，有的認為我們應該要向地方議會的某些制度看齊，人沒來的時候也沒有關係，反正按照預定時間來質詢，這就會牽涉到一些爭議，因為當初有立委人不在現場，然後質詢被跳過去時，馬上衝到院長的辦公室說：韓國瑜院長禮拜五下午是不是要出去玩，是不是跑去喝酒？按照我們立法院調查的結果，那天下午韓國瑜有跑出去玩，還是跑出去喝酒嗎？來，請秘書長。"],["周秘書長萬來：報告黃委員，那天下午他宣報以後是在後面跟我談一些事情。"],["黃委員國昌：所以他沒有出去玩，也沒有出去喝酒嘛！秘書長？"],["周秘書長萬來：沒有，所以後來才……"],["黃委員國昌：好，事實先確定就好了嘛，發生爭議的那天禮拜五中午，最後一位王鴻薇質詢完之後，我在立法院ivod上面看到是12點8分，我的理解有沒有錯誤？"],["周秘書長萬來：沒有錯。"],["黃委員國昌：12點8分，按照我們的議事規則或是立法院相關的慣例，是應該要繼續質詢下去，還是中午應該要休息？"],["周秘書長萬來：一般來講是在12點前，舉個例子來講，比如說11點58分，或是再接近的話，大概會延啦！如果在12點後的，大概我們一般來講是沒有再……"],["黃委員國昌：所以接下來下一個委員就是要下午質詢嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：一般都是這樣處理。"],["黃委員國昌：是嘛！"],["周秘書長萬來：一般是這樣處理。"],["黃委員國昌：現在問題就來了，現在民進黨所提出來的修法草案認為，依照第一項登記的名單，第一項登記的名單是在報到日到開議後7日內要登記，按照這個登記擬定質詢的順序跟時間，依照表定的時間來進行質詢，我拜讀了立法理由，說是要保障立法委員的質詢權不受議事進行狀況所減損，依照第一項登記名單擬定質詢的順序及起訖的時間，訂了就不會動了嘛，這樣子的修法，秘書長贊不贊成？"],["周秘書長萬來：針對這個，因為我們那次黨團協商會議有做了研究，這個制度的某部分，黃委員在當場有提了，我立即做了研究，如果照這個法修完以後就會造成委員那個還是沒辦法解決，就官員一定要坐在那邊等到……"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！這就是我的問題嘛！委員突然改書面，就像我剛剛講的那個例子嘛，本來輪到他質詢的時候要到下午了，你不可能在中午的時候，院長及所有的議事人員為了配合他的方便，中午不休息繼續質詢嘛，那他下午有行程就跑了嘛，跑了之後他要改書面，那我的問題就來啦！如果立委質詢改書面或質詢行政院長，所有的部會首長要坐在那邊等嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：如果這個法修了還是一樣會造成這個現象。"],["黃委員國昌：好。第二個事情是，民進黨黨團也提一個版本出來，我看了很有意思，他們說機關或是機構在調查委員會行使調查權的時候，沒有正當理由不可以拒絕、拖延、隱匿不提供文件、資料或物件；重點是下面，違反前項規定者，提報院會決議，處新臺幣一萬元以上三十萬元以下罰鍰。第四十八條的主詞是機關（構），那第二項是要罰誰？罰機關機構嗎？我看了很困惑，就像我叫農業部把報告交出來，雞蛋去哪裡買的、跟誰買的，我要了2個月，到今天還在拖延，如果按照這個新法，我們是罰農業部嗎？農業部不交，罰農業部，拿納稅人的預算來繳罰款，這有什麼嚇阻的作用？來，請秘書長表示意見。"],["周秘書長萬來：這個機關當然就不是當事人了。"],["黃委員國昌：好，沒有關係啦！看一下釋字第585號，釋字第585號有這麼限縮嗎？民進黨黨團的版本有兩大問題，第一個，說謊的時候要怎麼處理？我對說謊的時候要怎麼處理這件事情特別有感，因為我們的國會官員、我們的政府官員在國會裡面被抓到說謊不曉得幾次了，從來沒有人負責，連昨天司法院秘書長，我問他2016時，賴浩敏、蘇永欽是不是因為總統換屆有提前請辭？我問他，他說他不便表示意見，那奇怪了，換其他立委問他的時候，他說是因為任期屆了所以才辭，這根本是胡扯啊！2016年的時候，人家辭職書5月就提出來了，只是總統不批，7月的時候才公布啊！那哪是任期屆至啊？是忘了說當年夏天還提了兩位不適任的司法院正、副院長，引發民間社會大反彈，那個時候蔡英文才把當時夏天提的司法院正、副院長名單撤回重新提，才由許宗力老師上去當大院長嘛，這個簡單的、客觀的歷史事實都可以在國會裡面胡扯！","第二個重要的事情是什麼？釋字第585號講得很清楚啊！它規範的對象是什麼？與調查事項相關的人民或政府人員，有限於機關機構嗎？有只限於政府人員嗎？釋字第585號不是寫得很清楚嗎？連人民都包括在裡面啊！這不是國會固有的調查權嗎？怎麼有黨團提出來的國會改革法案裡面竟然有自宮條款？規範的範圍比釋字第585號還要限縮啊？我看了真的是瞠目結舌啊！這是哪門子國會改革啊！國會改革是限縮國會自己的權限，釋字第585號白紙黑字寫在這邊，結果在立法院職權行使法相應的條文沒有規範，所以我們現在才要推國會改革嘛！"],["但有一件更嚴重的事情，跟今天國會改革有密切相關，過去在立法院，這是我追蹤很久的案子，立法院之前用了一個民進黨的大樁腳當職員，叫做林耀庭，他在立法院任內的時候幹了什麼事情啊？他竟然幫助跨國的洗錢集團，把中國人非法引進到臺灣來，來幫助洗錢耶！檢察官的起訴書，整個調查包括判決說我們立法院裡面有內鬼，用偽造的文書找中國人來臺灣幫助洗錢、幫助詐騙，秘書長你仔細看，我把審判筆錄看完了，審判筆錄說什麼？這個被告林耀庭在裡面講\n            ：立法委員那邊已經傳給承辦人了，委員會親自處理，放心！我也會去親自處理。他橫向聯繫了以後，再找立委把手伸進去，委員可以施壓行政機關，這有嚴重的國安問題耶！非常嚴重的國安問題耶！我們立法院裡面竟然有內鬼去幫助外面的洗錢集團，找立法委員施壓我們的行政機關，施壓行政機關的範圍包括NCC、移民署，幫這些洗錢集團快速審案，可以用不實的文件拿到簽證來臺灣幫忙洗錢，這個嚴重影響臺灣國家安全跟社會秩序的離譜情事，我們的立法院有成立調查小組調查過嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：剛才人事處長跟我說，這位專員已經免職了。"],["黃委員國昌：當然是免職嘛，他一個人做得出這種事情來嗎？他在審判筆錄自己承認的事情喔！找立委施壓，哪一個立委施壓？這麼可惡啊！幫詐騙、洗錢集團用偽造的文件找中國人到臺灣來，還施壓我們的行政機關，這個事情該不該調查？秘書長。"],["周秘書長萬來：是，但是委員……"],["黃委員國昌：該不該調查？"],["周秘書長萬來：因為我不太瞭解，因為……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，我給你時間去瞭解。"],["周秘書長萬來：我來瞭解一下，好不好？我來瞭解。"],["黃委員國昌：可以嗎？我不知道是不是因為這個職員是民進黨的大樁腳，所以上一屆的國會輕輕放下，根本沒徹查。","今天有立委提議要把性騷放到立法委員行為法裡面，老實講我個人是贊成，性騷也好，性侵害也好，性歧視也好，都放進來沒有問題，但我的問題是立法技術的問題，其他的行為裡面都沒放，就放一個性騷，我列舉幾個，請秘書長表示意見。立委關說司法，該不該放進去？秘書長，性騷不對，絕對不應該，立委關說司法該不該放進去？"],["周秘書長萬來：這個行為法好像已經有規定……"],["黃委員國昌：有關說司法？來來來，第二個，立委關說假釋要不要放進去？第三個，立委用公帑到國外私會小三，要不要放進去？拿立法院的錢跑去日本那邊私會小三，親中舔共，這個要不要放進去？立委自己審預算，自己申請補助，這個要不要放進去？我們在立法技術上要想清楚，哪一些該規範的條文全部都要放進去，這很重要，秘書長，你贊不贊成？"],["周秘書長萬來：我大概尊重大家委員的……如果要比較詳細、完整，當然是剛才委員所提的，不過司法案件，好像第十七條有規定，在第十七條遊說那邊……"],["黃委員國昌：對，你如果說有規定，那我就覺得很奇怪，當初有立委關說司法，什麼事也沒發生啊！那我們今天該檢討的，恐怕不是只有法律的規定，是如果如同秘書長所講的法律已經有規定了，怎麼最後什麼事都沒發生，這不是很奇怪的事嗎？這個才是我們今天討論立法委員行為法的時候，應該要關切的重點之一嘛，秘書長，你贊不贊成？"],["周秘書長萬來：尊重委員大家的合議，剛才委員所提的那些各種都加入進去，由委員來合議。"],["黃委員國昌：好。主席站起來了，尊重主席，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員，謝謝周秘書長。我們今天審查的條文法案包括有立法院職權行使法以及立法委員行為法，兩者有些不太一樣，謝謝。接下來請林委員思銘發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":160,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-17","speakers":["鍾佳濱","范雲","羅智強","陳俊宇","沈伯洋","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","黃國昌","林思銘","吳思瑤","柯建銘","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","王鴻薇","翁曉玲","傅崐萁","吳宗憲","謝龍介"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-04-25"],"gazette_id":"1133401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133401_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續審查(一)民進黨黨團擬具「立法院組織法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員高金素梅等\n23人擬具「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法院組\n織法第三條、第五條及第三十二條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員高金素梅等17人擬具「立法院組\n織法第三十三條條文修正草案」案；二、繼續審查(一)民進黨黨團擬具「立法委員行為法第七條\n之一及第三十條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法委員行為法部分條文修正\n草案」案、(三)委員范雲等18人擬具「立法委員行為法第七條條文修正草案」案；三、繼續審查\n( 一) 民進黨黨團擬具「立法院議事規則第四十七條、第四十八條及第五十二條條文修正草案」\n案、( 二) 委員賴瑞隆等16 人擬具「立法院議事規則第九條、第二十二條及第五十條條文修正草\n案」案；四、(一)繼續審查民進黨黨團擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)繼\n續審查委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審\n查委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法增訂第二十八條之三及第二十八條之四條文草案」\n案、( 四 ) 繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kaaw 等19 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書面或質詢行政院長所有的部會首長要坐在那邊等嗎"},{"start":268.177,"end":294.226,"text":"如果說法修還是一樣會造成這個現象好那第二個事情是說民進黨黨團也提一個版本出來我看了很有意思他說機關或是機構在調查委員會行使調查權的時候沒有正當理由不可以拒絕拖延引力不提供文件資料或物件重點是下面違反前項規定提報院會決議處新台幣一萬以上三十萬以下罰還"},{"start":296.049,"end":300.01,"text":"48條的組織是機關機構第二項是要罰誰?罰機關機構嗎?我看了很困惑就像我叫農業部把報告交出來一旦去哪裡買的跟誰買的我要了兩個月到今天還在拖延如果按照這個新法我們是罰農業部嗎?農業部不交罰農業部拿納稅的預算來繳罰款"},{"start":326.463,"end":352.018,"text":"這個有什麼嚇阻的作用啊來請秘書長表示意見好沒有關係啊看一下44585啊44585有這麼限縮嗎民進黨黨團的版本有兩大問題啊第一個說謊的時候要怎麼處理我對說謊的時候要怎麼處理這件事情特別有感因為我們的國會官員啊"},{"start":353.737,"end":376.364,"text":"我們的政府官員在國會裡面被抓到說謊不曉得幾次了從來沒有人負責連昨天司法院秘書長我問他說2016的時候賴浩敏、蘇永青是不是因為總統換屆有提前請辭我問他他說他不便表示意見"},{"start":377.344,"end":397.629,"text":"那奇怪囉換其他立委問他的時候他說是因為任期戒了所以什麼所以才遲這根本是胡扯啊2016年的時候人家辭職書五月就提出來了啦只是總統不批七月的時候才公佈啊那哪是任期戒制啊"},{"start":400.051,"end":428.51,"text":"是忘了說當年夏天還提了兩位不適任的司法院正副院長引發民間社會大反彈啊那個時候蔡英文才把那個時候夏天提的司法院正副院長的名單撤回重新提才有我們許仲麗老師上去當大院長嘛這個簡單的客觀的歷史事實都可以在國會裡面胡扯第二個重要的事情是什麼世紀585講得很清楚啊"},{"start":429.332,"end":457.511,"text":"他規範的對象是什麼?與調查事項相關的人民或政府人員有限於機關機構嗎?有限於只有政府人員嗎?4585號不是寫得很清楚嗎?連人民都包括在裡面啊這不是國會固有的調查權嗎?怎麼我們自己由黨團提出來的所謂的國會改革的法案竟然裡面有志工條款"},{"start":459.632,"end":479.304,"text":"規範的範圍比四字五八五號還要限縮啊我看了真的是瞠目結舌啊這是哪門子國會改革啊國會改革是限縮國會自己的權限四字五八五號白紙黑字寫在這邊結果在立法院職權行之法相應的條文"},{"start":480.506,"end":503.463,"text":"沒有規範所以我們現在才要推國會改革嘛但有一件更嚴重的事情跟今天國會改革有密切相關立法院我們過去這是我在追蹤很久的案子我們立法院之前用了一個民進黨的大莊角叫做林耀廷當職員"},{"start":506.108,"end":515.052,"text":"結果他在立法院任內的時候幹了什麼事情啊他竟然幫助跨國的洗錢集團把中國人非法引進到台灣來來幫助洗錢欸"},{"start":523.953,"end":537.352,"text":"檢察官的起訴書整個調查包括判決說我們立法院裡面有內鬼用偽造的文書找中國人來台灣幫助洗錢幫助詐騙律師長您仔細看喔"},{"start":541.294,"end":563.104,"text":"我把審判筆錄看完了,審判筆錄說什麼?這個被告林耀廷在裡面講說,立法委員那邊已經傳給承辦人了。委員會親自處理啊,放心,我也會去親自處理啊。他橫向聯繫了以後,再找立委把手伸進去啊,委員可以施壓行政機關啊。"},{"start":564.364,"end":571.991,"text":"這個嚴重的國安問題欸非常嚴重的國安問題欸我們立法院裡面竟然有內鬼去幫助外面的洗錢集團找立法委員施壓我們的行政機關施壓行政機關的範圍包括了什麼NCC移民署"},{"start":588.251,"end":609.37,"text":"幫這些洗錢集團快速審案可以用不實的文件拿到簽證來台灣幫忙洗錢這麼嚴重的影響台灣國家安全跟社會秩序的離譜情勢我們的立法院有成立調查小組調查過嗎?當然是免職嘛他一個人做得出這種事情來嗎?"},{"start":616.141,"end":636.839,"text":"在審判筆錄他自己承認的事情找立委施壓哪一個立委施壓這麼可惡幫詐騙洗錢集團用偽造的文件找中國人到台灣來還施壓我們的行政機關這個事情該不該調查秘書長"},{"start":640.852,"end":657.532,"text":"是該不該調查因為我不太瞭解沒有關係我給你時間去瞭解我來瞭解一下好不好可以嗎我不知道啦這個職員是不是因為是民進黨的大樁腳所以上屆的國會輕輕放下根本沒徹查嘛"},{"start":660.714,"end":688.992,"text":"今天有立委提啊說性騷要把他放到立法委員行為法裡面我老實講我個人是贊成的性騷也好性侵害也好性歧視也好都放進來沒有問題但我的問題很我的問題是立法技術的問題我們在其他的行為裡面都沒放就放個性騷來我列舉幾個啦請秘書長表示意見立委關說司法該不該放進去"},{"start":693.103,"end":707.046,"text":"秘書長,性騷不對嘛,絕對不應該嘛,立委關說司法該不該放進去?有關說司法,來來來,第二個,立委關說假釋要不要放進去?第三個,立委用公帑到國外私會小三,要不要放進去?"},{"start":716.089,"end":723.571,"text":"拿立法院的錢跑去日本在那邊撕毀小山親中舔共這個要不要放進去立委自己省預算自己撐起補助這個要不要放進去我們在立法技術上要想清楚哪一些該規範的條文阿全部都要放進去阿"},{"start":744.247,"end":769.187,"text":"這很重要嘛!秘書長您贊不贊成?在尊重大家委員的...要比較...詳細完整當然是剛才委員所提的啦!不過事務案件好像第17條有規定啦!對!第17條在...在...在遊說那邊...對啊!阿你如果說覺得有規定那我就覺得很奇怪啦!阿當初立委有關說司法!什麼事也沒發生啊!"},{"start":770.39,"end":782.73,"text":"那我們今天該檢討的恐怕不是只有法律的規定喔是如果如同秘書長所講的法律已經有規定了啊怎麼說什麼事都沒發生這個不是很奇怪的事嗎"},{"start":784.6,"end":802.404,"text":"這個才是我們今天討論立法委員行為法的時候應該要關切的重點之一嘛秘書長你讚不讚成尊重大家委員大家合意剛才委員所提的那些各種都加入進去那由委員來合意好主席站起來了尊重主席謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}