{"error":false,"id":["151740"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":151740,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151740","日期":"2024-04-25","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-26-13","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":13,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-04-25T10:37:49+08:00","結束時間":"2024-04-25T10:49:08+08:00","影片長度":"00:11:19","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37a05b44d500ce153e7234010ae5be21c97d93183120460dc68e374cd8c4bed04d60f788256e38ee5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇清泉","委員發言時間":"10:37:49 - 10:49:08","會議時間":"2024-04-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長、法務部、原住民族委員會、內政部、衛生福利部就「就業服務法上路逾三十年，針對就業促進、歧視禁止、外國勞動力權益保障等面向進行全面檢視」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月22日、24日及25日三天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":598,"blocks":[["蘇委員清泉：（10時37分）謝謝主席，我請部長。"],["主席：請許部長。"],["許部長銘春：蘇委員好。"],["蘇委員清泉：部長辛苦了。"],["許部長銘春：不會。"],["蘇委員清泉：功成身退。"],["許部長銘春：謝謝。"],["蘇委員清泉：希望很快就有高就、更好的位子。","我今天有一個問題先請教，在南部或者全臺灣，一般肉類的冷鏈加工屬於A級，他們聘請外勞，是其員工總數的25%……"],["許部長銘春：核配比率……"],["蘇委員清泉：沒錯嘛？"],["許部長銘春：對，冷凍冷藏，我看這邊是25%沒錯。"],["蘇委員清泉：這個照片是我們的第一批石斑魚，從興達出發，我去跟他們加油打氣、活魚運搬。現在的水產加工，尤其在高雄跟屏東，他們也都用冷鏈，而職業別就不行，我這裡要求是不是能比照肉品？因為一樣都是全程冷鏈，所以這些比率能不能也給他們調成25%，這個要求不過分啦！他們也都在……"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，這個部分是在經濟部工業局產發署，行業分級是他們在評估，我會把委員的意見轉達給他們，認為可以的話，請他們也能夠做一些檢討調整。"],["蘇委員清泉：因為現在真的是缺人缺得很嚴重，像這一種，我前天去看我們殺豬的，殺豬也一樣，那也是整個都凋零，從頭到尾，臺灣的小孩沒人要做啦！"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["蘇委員清泉：薪水也不錯啊！相對的，合法的工廠不敢聘非法外勞，而一般打零工的，譬如農業是今天要幾個就來幾個。我覺得，這些逃跑的外勞跟合法的外勞是臺灣安定的最大力量，我這裡要給移工最大的肯定，我們不能再有任何的歧視等，什麼都不行，因為他們真的對我們的貢獻太大了。"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["蘇委員清泉：我跟大家報告，現在農村都老化，非法的也好，如果沒有這些移工幫忙的話，根本動不了，在高樹、恆春都一樣，我們看了都很感動。當然勞動部這邊能配合的就要儘量配合，能夠讓他們身分變正常是應該的。","再來就是我們要提高他們的待遇，事實上，現在那些逃跑的移工、外勞每天是計日的，做一天就1,500、2,000，有的到兩千多，所以他們比計月工作的更高，這已經很高了！比起人家基本工資才2、3萬塊，對不對？他們一天就可以拿到1,500、2,000，一個月就5、6萬跑不掉，所以他寧可跑掉，這個是很糟糕的事情！部長，你要卸任，但你要看看怎麼做。"],["許部長銘春：這個我們持續在檢討，不過說實在，這些失聯移工雖然看起來領日薪滿高，但是他有風險，也可能會被剝削，然後也沒有社會保險、勞健保什麼的，其實說起來也是處境堪慮啦。所以我們希望都是合法引進，希望我們的雇主善待這些合法移工，給他應有、合理的薪資，這樣才能夠留住人。"],["蘇委員清泉：我看我們高雄、屏東這些產業，包括做食品、做肉類以及漁業，事實上他們很善待外籍移工，你要跟我說會看到什麼凌虐、霸凌，我在這邊鄭重講，我沒有看到，而且還會塞一些bonus給他們！因為不善待他們就找不到人呀，真的找不到人！而且這個需求量很大，所以這個政策還是要與時俱進，薪水太低就沒有人要來啦！我們現在的移工最主要來自菲律賓，還有呢？"],["許部長銘春：菲律賓、印尼、越南還有泰國。"],["蘇委員清泉：泰國就少了吧？"],["許部長銘春：對，現在比較少了。"],["蘇委員清泉：泰國自己在發展產業。"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["蘇委員清泉：所以你現在要引進印度的移工嘛？"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["蘇委員清泉：那我們初期是要引進多少人？"],["許部長銘春：人數還沒有確定，因為我們要看各產業的需求，我們會邀目的事業主管機關，像經濟部、衛福部、農業部及內政部來討論大概有多少需求，然後再來決定。"],["蘇委員清泉：我跟部長講，事實上，東南亞這些國家都有混了一點點華人的血統，比較有華人文化，他們生活習性還可以跟我們compatible，有一點點混合。有關印度的移工，印度因為是高加索人，在醫學、人類學上我們就是蒙古系，那邊是高加索系，高加索人的生活習慣、宗教跟我們完全不一樣。那你要引進印度的移工進來，當然缺人啦，也要讓引進來源多元化，但你有沒有想到他們的生活方式、觀念跟我們不一樣，大家也對印度還有很多的疑慮，勞動部這一塊是怎麼補強？你總不能把他引進來就丟給仲介，仲介沒有能力、他沒有能力！"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，我們其實也會透過召開諮詢會議讓社會各個團體、專家學者來參與對話，讓大家對印度的部分提出希望我們再來做一些怎麼樣的規劃，也讓大家能夠對印度更瞭解，然後對印度移工素質的部分能夠予以肯定、有信心，這個部分我們會持續召開會議，也會透過各種方式讓我們的民眾能夠瞭解。"],["蘇委員清泉：這個要加強。"],["許部長銘春：是，會。"],["蘇委員清泉：因為印度在國際上習性、風評不太好，不能講這有歧視，沒有歧視啦！"],["許部長銘春：但是不會耶，報告委員，其實全世界的印度移工大概有1,800萬分布在世界各國，白領的部分臺灣就有兩千七百多人在這裡，其實印度移工的素質在世界各國都滿受肯定的，像日本去年已經跟它簽MOU、現在韓國也在談，我們是第二個跟它簽的，所以這部分我覺得大概……但是大家所關心的、擔心的我們都會透過對話去化解疑慮。"],["蘇委員清泉：你要兩方調適。"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["蘇委員清泉：進來這邊不能把他丟給一些仲介業者去磨合，我覺得這個很危險！"],["許部長銘春：對！這個部分我們會加強。"],["蘇委員清泉：還有你們跟印度談MOU，一直都是保密嘛，保密、保密！我們很多同仁都跟我反映，跟你們要什麼都沒有、什麼資料都沒有，都保密！到底我們跟印度的狀況如何？是印度很支持我們還是怎麼樣？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員……"],["蘇委員清泉：我看印度也沒有在幫我們講話啊！"],["許部長銘春：沒有啦！委員，這種MOU在程序完成之前都是保密的，我們也不是只有針對印度，之前4個國家都是這樣，還有其他各部會跟人家簽的MOU也是都這樣，完成之後行政院自然就會公布啦！"],["蘇委員清泉：所以沒有比較特別？"],["許部長銘春：而且它只是一個大原則而已，委員看那個條文就很簡單。"],["蘇委員清泉：我看有13條，都寫得很籠統。"],["許部長銘春：13條嘛，那是一個原則，就是大家有一個意向書、把大原則先談定下來，後面的工作層級會議才是重點，那才會有實質內容出來。"],["蘇委員清泉：我看印度也很少提到臺灣、很少幫臺灣講話，所以我們這樣一頭熱……"],["許部長銘春：有喔！我們其實……"],["蘇委員清泉：幫臺灣講話的只有印度神童，他都亂講！"],["許部長銘春：沒有啦，委員，其實我們現在跟印度之間的交流還滿密切的，包括經濟、經貿的投資等等，甚至包括醫藥方面也都有，所以……"],["蘇委員清泉：印度的學名藥的原料藥占全世界將近30%，中國大陸將近50%，所以這2個國家加起來占全世界學名藥的原料藥供應將近80%；印度的原料藥的原料、更原始的原料還跟中國大陸買，所以這整個都卡死！所以美國說要修理中國大陸，如果原料藥不給它，我看它抗生素第二代、第三代都沒有藥啦，所以講那個事情都是錯綜複雜，沒有像我們想得那麼簡單啦！","勞動部這一塊關於引進外國移工，因為現在來源國越來越少，所以我們還是要廣一點！"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["蘇委員清泉：我有去談過緬甸耶，後來沒有簽嘛，可以再加強這一塊，他們也很喜歡來。"],["許部長銘春：緬甸我也覺得很可惜，其實我們勞動部之前已經談到某個階段了，但是沒有辦法！會有一些……"],["蘇委員清泉：我在第8屆的時候還去跟他們農業部……當然是我們這邊農委會請我順道一起去啦，談得滿可以，但後來就沒有成，所以這個可以加強，緬甸5、6千萬人而且近，因此可以廣收各個來源國，不然臺灣真的缺工、缺料、缺專家越來越嚴重！只會越嚴重啦，不會改善！"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，我們其實不放棄啦，雖然過去談了、後來觸礁，我覺得不放棄啦，我們會持續透過外交部來評估……"],["蘇委員清泉：外交部做不到的我們也可以幫忙。"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，謝謝！"],["許部長銘春：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蘇清泉委員。","現在休息10分鐘。","休息（10時49分）","繼續開會（10時59分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。","請鄭天財委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":424,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-13","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","王育敏","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王正旭","蘇清泉","鄭天財Sra 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們其實不放棄啦,就過去談了後來促交,就不放棄啦,我們會透..."},{"start":672.179,"end":673.142,"text":"持續通過外交部來評估．"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}