{"error":false,"id":["151797"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":151797,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151797","日期":"2024-04-29","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-36-18","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":18,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-04-29T09:13:52+08:00","結束時間":"2024-04-29T09:24:57+08:00","影片長度":"00:11:05","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e607bbb025bd730d1e12d28fff7690636534e2527b10508eee31c2673164c3cee95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"09:13:52 - 09:24:57","會議時間":"2024-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：審查委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「監察院組織法第三條之一及第三條之二條文修正草案」案。）","gazette":{"lineno":121,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時14分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請監察院李秘書長。"],["李秘書長俊俋：黃委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：秘書長好。針對今天徐巧芯等17位委員所提出來的監察院組織法要把一些政治性任命的資格消除，這個說法的方向本席是同意的，不過我覺得更根本的問題是什麼？我覺得更根本的問題是，當一年預算到10億的監察院已經不再受人民信賴的時候，我國憲政體制上面的盲腸必須要被澈底根除！這已經不是監察委員積極資格的問題，這是一個根本沒有用的廢物監察院應該要把它廢止的問題！秘書長，您贊不贊成？"],["李秘書長俊俋：這個要由修憲委員會來討論。"],["黃委員國昌：好，當然是要由修憲委員會來討論嘛！2020年您擔任總統府副秘書長的時候，那個時候總統府成立一個廢考監專責平臺，我想要請教一下，這個平臺有達成任何效果嗎？"],["李秘書長俊俋：有協助第10屆提出憲法修正案。"],["黃委員國昌：有提出憲法修正案？"],["李秘書長俊俋：對。"],["黃委員國昌：你確定嗎？"],["李秘書長俊俋：第10屆有啊，包括廢除考監。"],["黃委員國昌：最後出委員會的，我們完成了啦！沒有廢考監。當然，對民進黨來講、對國民黨來講，上一屆國會各自有各自的政治盤算，人民不關心這件事，人民關心的事情是如同剛剛秘書長所講的，立法院什麼時候要有一個修憲委員會把這個考監廢除掉？"],["李秘書長俊俋：第8屆也有。"],["黃委員國昌：台灣民眾黨黨團的立場很清楚，監察院廢除！我們希望這個會期跟其他兩大黨一起合作，來完成這個重要的憲政改革使命！不過，在這個之前……"],["李秘書長俊俋：修憲是立法院的職權，不是監察院的職權。"],["黃委員國昌：是啦！在這個之前，監察院有監察院的職權，繼續領納稅人的錢、繼續在花公帑的同時，我們當然期待監察院要有所作為嘛！","好，那我們就進一步看，過去光電弊案叢生，腐敗到讓人沒有辦法想像，最近發生誇張的事情，其實這也不是最近發生的事情，這個只是為了要因應2024年總統大選，刻意壓到選後才辦，這個醜聞我去年談得非常的多了，英系大樁腳力暘集團的古盛煇，小古在民進黨裡面是赫赫有名啊！力暘集團的總部跟民進黨黨部的關係還匪淺，但沒有關係，我們依法論法，就事論事。結果這一個英系權貴力暘集團古盛煇透過非法的方式，騙到了臺南七股的電籌許可，現在檢察官起訴了，檢察官起訴了以後，大家才赫然發現，腐敗的狀況還不止臺南市政府的陳凱凌，腐敗的狀況連我們經濟部能源局光電組組長全部都涉案了，這位林文信竟然還是2022年的模範公務員，這樣的模範公務員，監察院要不要啟動調查？要不要啟動彈劾？"],["李秘書長俊俋：跟黃委員報告，有關光電案，監察院前後調查過8個案，其中有關彰化縣大城鄉的鄉長，還有苗栗三灣的鄉長，還有臺南市經發局的局長，還有口湖的鄉長，都被彈劾。"],["黃委員國昌：就雲林的部分，你還少提了一個人嘛！就是英系的林哲凌嘛！"],["李秘書長俊俋：我剛剛講的就是林哲凌啊！"],["黃委員國昌：好，沒有關係啦！針對林文信的案子，監察院要不要啟動調查彈劾？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我們看委員，委員如果認為有新的證據，他就可以提出彈劾。"],["黃委員國昌：新的證據？"],["李秘書長俊俋：就是針對林文信的部分。"],["黃委員國昌：這個案子之前有調查過嗎？"],["李秘書長俊俋：其他的光電案有。"],["黃委員國昌：對，我說這個案子之前有調查過嗎？"],["李秘書長俊俋：這個尚未結案。"],["黃委員國昌：這尚未結案嘛！好，我今天在立法院國會的殿堂公開呼籲，監委，醒一醒啊！醒一醒啊！該辦就辦，趕快處理。"],["李秘書長俊俋：監察院一向該辦就辦。"],["黃委員國昌：下一個案子，蘇丹紅的案子，最近蘇丹紅的風波越滾越大，這個是今天報紙的版面，這個週末又出包了！結果我們的食藥署署長吳秀梅說什麼？說輸入的時間是在加強邊境檢查前，加強邊境檢查前就是吳秀梅講的什麼？就是2023年12月11號百分之百逐批查驗嘛！問題是我們的食藥署跟臺灣社會講，2023年12月11號的時候有百分之百逐批查驗，但實際上面的結果呢？實際上面的結果是百分之百逐批查驗以後，蘇丹紅的毒粉還是繼續流入臺灣市場。我發現這個狀況以後，我就覺得很奇怪，所以我就質詢衛福部，你們不是告訴臺灣社會百分之百逐批查驗嗎？逐批查驗有問題的在邊境就要攔下來了嘛！為什麼還會有蘇丹紅進來？結果等到我在立法院質詢了以後，我們的衛福部才承認什麼？承認說謊，根本沒有百分之百逐批查驗，這件事情監察院要不要調查？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我們現在已經在調查中了。"],["黃委員國昌：需要多久？"],["李秘書長俊俋：這個要看委員的時間。"],["黃委員國昌：你們一般辦案的期限多久？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我們分為一般案件、重大案件跟特殊重大案件。"],["黃委員國昌：這個是屬於什麼案件？"],["李秘書長俊俋：應該是重大案件。"],["黃委員國昌：所以重大案件是多久？"],["李秘書長俊俋：6個月。"],["黃委員國昌：好，沒關係啦！食安風暴不斷地擴大，衛福部說有逐批查驗，現實上沒有，今天我也是利用……"],["李秘書長俊俋：這個我們調查中嘛……"],["黃委員國昌：你們不用調查啦！我已經都舉出來了啦！衛福部也承認了啦！"],["李秘書長俊俋：凡事都要調查，在監察院我們是很細、很注重細節。"],["黃委員國昌：對啦！是、是、是、是，監察院的調查到底細不細，所有監察院的調查報告、彈劾的結果在監察院的網站都有嘛！"],["李秘書長俊俋：是。"],["黃委員國昌：全國人民通通都可以公評啦！","好，下一個問題，監察院的重要原則是不是行政中立、獨立行使職權？"],["李秘書長俊俋：沒有錯啊！"],["黃委員國昌：監察委員可以輔選嗎？"],["李秘書長俊俋：不可以輔選。"],["黃委員國昌：來，我今天公開檢舉，監察院行政中立、獨立行使職權，任職期間不可以從事政治活動，剛剛秘書長也有提到政治活動嘛！監察院相關的規範通通都有講什麼是政治活動，那就奇怪囉！去年年底的時候，監察院院長陳菊跑去高雄的舊城教會為他的子弟兵輔選，我去年還沒有進立法院的時候，我公開質疑這件事情，結果監察院院長陳菊說什麼，陳菊說他受邀參加教會彌撒，到場的時候沒有候選人在，也不清楚前後是不是有候選人在，問題是什麼？12月30號那一天，舊城教會根本沒有彌撒，根本沒有彌撒啊！是院長說謊嗎？"],["李秘書長俊俋：報告黃委員，這個院長已經發過新聞稿講得非常清楚，他當天都沒有看到候選人，這個不是助選活動……"],["黃委員國昌：好，現在……"],["李秘書長俊俋：這是教會活動。"],["黃委員國昌：好，現在這個就是體制的問題了，當監察院院長有沒有參加政治活動這件事情遭受到了質疑，這個時候是以監察院院長的新聞稿為準，還是監察院應該要啟動自律調查程序？"],["李秘書長俊俋：這個部分很清楚啊！院長已經說明他根本沒有看到候選人，怎麼會是助選活動呢？"],["黃委員國昌：我現在在講的是制度上的問題喔！陳菊說的，陳菊他是被指控的人嘛！他要怎麼講，那是他的說法嘛！如果按照你剛講的，任何人被檢舉了以後，他只要用他自己的說法就可以了，所以我的問題很簡單啦！針對這一件事情，到底監察院的立場是監察院長發新聞稿就可以了，還是要啟動自律調查？"],["李秘書長俊俋：這個部分我跟黃委員報告，監察院依據憲法增修條文第七條的規定，必須超出黨派以外，獨立行使職權，另外我們有自律規範。那如果有人檢舉……"],["黃委員國昌：是，這個就是我的問題了。"],["李秘書長俊俋：對，我們的自律規範……"],["黃委員國昌：如果有人……"],["李秘書長俊俋：如果我們的自律規範認為院長有這樣的……我們會經過紀律委員會來審酌嘛！"],["黃委員國昌：好。現在監察院啟動了自律的紀律委員會程序沒有？"],["李秘書長俊俋：目前這件沒有，因為院長講得很清楚，根本沒有見到候選人，當天也不是助選，也不是選舉活動。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，今天大家見識到了監察院的標準……"],["李秘書長俊俋：沒有。黃委員……"],["黃委員國昌：如果涉案人是陳菊的話，他自己發新聞稿就算數了。"],["李秘書長俊俋：這不能這樣連結，人也沒有見到，也不是選舉活動，你說因為他前後都有……"],["黃委員國昌：請問你人在現場嗎？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我人不在現場。"],["黃委員國昌：請問你人在現場嗎？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我人不在現場，所以我們主動問……"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！所以我在講的是體制的問題嘛！到底要不要啟動紀律委員會調查，還是院長說了算？"],["李秘書長俊俋：委員，這是不當連結。"],["黃委員國昌：還是院長說了算？"],["李秘書長俊俋：這是不當連結。"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！我問的問題非常簡單，到底是監察院院長說了算，還是要紀律委員會調查？為什麼？高雄市政府裡面的公務員指證歷歷啊！就是高雄市民政局的副局長蔡翹鴻為候選人舉辦的輔選活動，那一天見面以前，怎麼call人的、誰先到、誰後到、要安排哪些輔選人員帶著東西去，人家都檢舉了嘛！好，現在我的問題很簡單啦！"],["李秘書長俊俋：我們沒有收到任何檢舉函。"],["黃委員國昌：陳菊有陳菊的說法，你說你沒有接到任何檢舉，沒有關係，今天我在司法及法制委員會，我公開檢舉，而且我提案，等一下提案的時候，所有司法及法制委員會的委員一起討論，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝黃國昌委員。我們現在先做宣告，今天有委員提出臨時提案，依本會往例預計於上午11時處理，若屆時委員正在詢答，則該位委員詢答完畢之後，即進行處理臨時提案。","接下來我們請沈發惠委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":386,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-18","speakers":["吳宗憲","徐巧芯","黃國昌","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","鍾佳濱","陳俊宇","羅智強","林思銘","黃建賓","牛煦庭","吳思瑤","柯建銘","傅崐萁","翁曉玲","王鴻薇"],"page_start":335,"meetingDate":["2024-04-29"],"gazette_id":"1133501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133501_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「監察院組織法第三條之一及第三條之二條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1133501_00017"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.337218750000002,"end":11.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.978468750000001,"end":12.029093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.231593750000002,"end":16.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.70346875,"end":17.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.660343750000003,"end":23.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.95971875,"end":38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下一個問題監察院重要的原則是不是行政中立獨立行使職權沒有錯啊監察委員可以服選嗎不可以服選"},{"start":434.895,"end":461.414,"text":"不可以輔選嘛來我今天公開檢舉監察院行政中立獨立行使職權任職期間不可以從事政治活動剛剛政治活動秘書長也有提到嘛監察院相關的規範通通都有講什麼是政治活動那就奇怪囉去年年底的時候監察院院長陳菊跑去高雄的舊城教會為他的子弟弟兵輔選"},{"start":463.257,"end":486.351,"text":"我去年還沒有進去立法院的時候我公開質疑這件事情結果監察院院長陳菊說什麼陳菊說他受邀參加教會彌撒到場的時候沒有候選人在也不清楚前後是不是有候選人在問題是什麼12月30號那一天舊城教會根本沒彌撒根本沒有彌撒"},{"start":490.253,"end":519.72,"text":"是院長說謊嗎?報告黃委員 這個我們已經發過 院長已經發過新聞稿講得非常清楚他當時是沒有看到候選人 這個是候選活動 這是教會活動現在 這個就是體制的問題了當監察院院長有沒有參加政治活動這件事情遭受到的質疑 這個時候是以監察院院長的新聞稿為準還是監察院應該要啟動智力調查程序"},{"start":520.979,"end":541.791,"text":"這個部分很清楚啊 院長已經說明他根本沒有看到候選人 怎麼會是助理我現在在講的 是制度上的問題喔陳菊說的 陳菊他是被指控的人嘛 他要怎麼講 那是他的說法嘛那如果按照你剛講的 任何人 任何人被檢舉了以後 他只要用他自己的說法就可以了"},{"start":542.071,"end":566.602,"text":"所以我的問題很簡單啦針對這一件事情針對這一件事情到底監察院的立場是監察院長發新聞稿就可以了還是要啟動自律調查這個部分我跟黃委員報告齁監察院依據憲法徵求條文第7條的規定必須超出黨派以外獨立行使職權另外我們有自律規範是那如果有人這個就是我的問題啦對"},{"start":570.016,"end":579.673,"text":"如果我們的自律規範認為院長有這樣的 我們會經過紀律委員會來審酌嗎好 現在監察院啟動了自律的紀律委員會程序沒有"},{"start":580.695,"end":585.758,"text":"目前這一件沒有 因為講得很清楚 院長講得很清楚了根本沒有見到候選人沒有關係啊 今天大家見識到了監察院的標準啊如果涉案人是陳菊的話 他自己發宣文稿就算數了人也沒有見到 也不是選舉活動 請問你人在現場嗎我人不在現場所以我在講的是體制的問題嘛"},{"start":606.448,"end":612.03,"text":"到底要不要啟動紀律委員會調查紀律委員會調查還是院長說了算還是院長說了算對嘛我在問的問題非常簡單到底是監察院院長說了算還是要紀律委員會調查為什麼"},{"start":624.534,"end":648.155,"text":"高雄市政府裡面的公務員指正歷歷啊就是高雄市民政局的副局長蔡竅宏為候選人舉辦的輔選活動啊那天見面以前怎麼call人的誰先到誰後到要安排哪些輔選的人員帶著東西去人家都檢舉了嘛好現在我們的問題很簡單啦我們沒有收到任何選舉"},{"start":648.996,"end":662.523,"text":"有陳菊的說法你說你沒有接到任何檢舉沒有關係今天我在司法法制委員會我在司法法制委員會我公開檢舉而且我提提案等一下提案的時候所有司法法制委員會的委員一起討論謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}