{"error":false,"id":["151830"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":151830,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151830","日期":"2024-04-29","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"聯席會議-11-1-26,36-1","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":1,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"聯席會議","委員會代碼":[26,36],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會","司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-04-29T10:25:56+08:00","結束時間":"2024-04-29T10:35:06+08:00","影片長度":"00:09:10","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e658e463d9948e08a6055d9f022d149edd34e2527b10508eeee3b98117f6536c6a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"10:25:56 - 10:35:06","會議時間":"2024-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查\n一、委員黃捷等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十六條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條、第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員蘇清泉等24人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十八條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員徐巧芯等24人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員陳冠廷等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員黃健豪等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員林宜瑾等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第三十九條之一條文草案」案。\n十一、委員李坤城等22人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員沈伯洋等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第四十一條之一條文草案」案。\n十六、委員王育敏等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員黃建賓等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十八、委員許宇甄等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條及第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、委員王世堅等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十、委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、委員王美惠等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、國民黨黨團擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、委員萬美玲等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第四十四條、第五十一條及第五十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、委員賴士葆等22人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案...等36案。\n【以上議案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【4月29日及5月1日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":783,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（10時26分）謝謝主席。麻煩有請衛福部部長、法務部代表以及司法院代表。"],["主席：好，我們請以上官員上臺。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：時間的關係，我就不一一問候了。上次質詢時，對處理有關兒少性剝削防制條例的問題我點出來了，但實務上的問題可能需要衛福部、法務部跟司法院大家一起坐下來好好談清楚。這件事情發生了沒有？"],["薛部長瑞元：目前還沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：什麼時候會發生？"],["張司長秀鴛：4月25日在諮詢會議有特別提出來，會上有建議司法院帶回去參照白玫瑰運動去……"],["黃委員國昌：對不起，請你針對問題回答。我上次質詢要求的是三個部門坐下來談，這件事情部長說還沒有發生，所以我現在的問題是：什麼時候會發生？還是永遠不會發生？"],["薛部長瑞元：應該……我看看下個禮拜能不能找來一起……"],["黃委員國昌：儘快！"],["薛部長瑞元：好。"],["黃委員國昌：因為今天所牽涉到的法案，其實與三個部門密切相關，特別是牽涉到有關於兒少性剝削防制條例相關條文法定刑提高的問題。為什麼我們這麼重視這個問題？當我們的立法者都著眼於在法定刑提高的時候，我個人是贊成，但更重要的事情是什麼？那就是實務上到底是怎麼操作的，要讓大家看得清楚現實，否則這樣子的條文再修過一次……剛剛已經有委員講了，上一次修法提高刑度後，顯然沒有效果，否則我們今天不會在這邊齊聚一堂，針對同樣的問題，再次要提修法！我簡單請教一下，部長，目前不管是製造還是散播兒少性影像的罰則，從衛福部的立場來講會不會覺得法定刑過低？"],["薛部長瑞元：持有這個部分。"],["黃委員國昌：其他的部分呢？你覺得OK？"],["薛部長瑞元：應該是……這當然還是要由法務部這邊……"],["黃委員國昌：請法務部。"],["汪參事南均：報告委員，目前看現行法條，是跟刑法妨害秘密、妨害性隱私與不實影像罪這些刑度相比較。目前看起來，當初可能應該都有設想到衡平性與比例性……"],["黃委員國昌：剛剛你講到一個重點，就是討論所謂的衡平性。討論衡平性這件事我贊成，但問題是什麼？問題是，整個刑事處罰上全部都是偏低的！所謂全部偏低就是，如果有個法定刑，譬如一年以上七年以下、三年以上十年以下、五年以上十二年以下，那麼在審判實務上，全部都是從最低的刑度開始往上加，我的理解正不正確？"],["汪參事南均：這要看個案判斷。"],["黃委員國昌：好，我等一下馬上給你看個案。法律人在國會殿堂就講實話了，法律人在國會殿堂就講實話了！我進一步請教，意圖營利犯前二項之罪，依各該條項之規定加重其刑至二分之一，加重是怎麼加重的？譬如說六月以上、五年以下有期徒刑，加重最低刑度是多少？"],["汪參事南均：六月以上最低刑度應該就是九月。"],["黃委員國昌：不對！錯！請司法院。"],["謝廳長靜慧：六月以上就是包含六月。"],["黃委員國昌：加重其刑至二分之一是加重多少？在場有沒有刑事法官？來，請說。"],["朱法官嘉川：跟委員說明，因為現在的法律規定「加重至二分之一」，因為這個「至」，所以實務上穩定的見解是認為最高刑度、最高可以提到二分之一。"],["黃委員國昌：我剛剛問的是最低。"],["朱法官嘉川：最低刑度是有加重即可，所以……"],["黃委員國昌：有加重即可！"],["朱法官嘉川：對。"],["黃委員國昌：這件事你要告訴所有的立法委員，加重其刑至二分之一是最低刑度六個月，只要有加，那麼七個月開始就可以了。所有法官在量刑時，都是從最低開始做起，這個審判實務要讓所有立法委員知道啊！要不然大家拼了命在搞最高刑度，有什麼用？在審判實務上到底造成什麼衝擊？","我帶大家看一下，這個是美國法，與兒少性剝削有關。僱用、勸說、引誘兒少製造性影像，初犯十五年以上三十年以下；如果有一次性犯罪的前科，第二次再犯，二十五年以上五十年以下；如果有兩次性犯罪的前科，第三次犯，三十五年以上、無期徒刑；如果在這個過程當中導致人家死亡的話，死刑、無期徒刑、三十年以上有期徒刑，這是美國立法者的立法技術。如果是散播、販賣、意圖販賣而持有兒少的性影像，初犯，五年以上二十年以下；有一次前科，十五年以上四十年以下，這個是人家的立法技術，它在處罰的是什麼？要澈底地保護兒少避免受到數位性暴力、性剝削，人家是這樣在幹的。","看一下我國的審判實務長成什麼樣子，我以具體的例子，我不跟你們談抽象的問題，我以具體的例子，有一個性侵犯出獄了以後，出獄了以後他繼續什麼？仲介人家去旅館賣淫，仲介人家去旅館賣淫以後，這個是累犯喔，仲介兩個女子到兩個不同的旅館去賣淫，一個判六個月，一個判四個月，應執行有期徒刑八個月，定執行刑嘛！易科罰金，1,000元折算一天，等於是繳多少錢這件事情就結束了？繳8萬塊這件事情就結束了。不要以為這樣就停止了，這樣的處罰，對於他有沒有嚇阻的效力？我老實跟大家報告，完全沒有嚇阻的效力！所以他出來了以後繼續幹什麼？把我們兒少的性影像上傳到網站。臺灣女學生自慰、小女生脫衣服，累犯判多久？各處有期徒刑三個月，易科罰金均以1,000元折算一日，所以總共罰了多少錢？總共罰了多少錢？一個罪3萬塊解決，搞到他什麼？變本加厲，越來越離譜，再度誘使7名兒少製造性影像傳到網站上面去，結果是用我們的刑法累犯來看怎麼加重的？到第二審的時候，三年以上有期徒刑法定刑的罪，第一個，未滿12歲的女童，第二審判三年；第二個，未滿16歲的少女，三年四個月；七個被害人加起來，最後定刑多少？四年！多一個被害人，邊際效用不斷地降低，七個被害人喔，七個被害人定執行刑什麼？四年！累犯加重加到哪裡去啊？就像剛剛司法院的法官講的啊，有加重就好嘛，這是我們現在的刑事司法政策啊！但我們要澈底反省的是什麼？這樣的刑事司法政策是在保護被害人嗎？還是在鼓勵加害人繼續幹、繼續搞？沒有關係啊，我們的刑事司法體系，對於這種一而再、再而三犯案的人，是如此地寬容啊，這就是為什麼社會憤怒的原因啊！部長，同不同意？"],["薛部長瑞元：這的確是在實務上面，如果是有這樣子的情形的話，可能是社會上面比較不能接受……"],["黃委員國昌：主席站起來了，相關的討論，等一下進逐條的時候，我們一件一件來對，這是為什麼我要求衛福部、法務部跟司法院，不要三個部門一人一把號，各吹各的調，你們三個部門統合起來實踐的結果，就是我今天這個個案，讓這個加害人哪裡有任何的警惕？哪裡有任何的遏止？哪裡有任何的處罰？這個體系是在鼓勵他，說你繼續搞沒有關係，我們的司法體系對你很寬容啊，但這個是社會可以忍受的嗎？我可能拜託等一下進逐條的時候，三個部門、三個部門的人，要認真地面對這件事情，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。等一下王育敏委員質詢結束之後，我們休息5分鐘。","接下來我們請林淑芬委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":356,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-26,36-1","speakers":["王育敏","黃捷","蘇清泉","郭昱晴","葛如鈞","陳冠廷","李坤城","許宇甄","沈伯洋","王世堅","陳菁徽","王美惠","王鴻薇","張雅琳","何欣純","范雲","林思銘","林月琴","陳昭姿","廖偉翔","劉建國","黃國昌","林淑芬","陳俊宇","王正旭","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","陳亭妃","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","陳培瑜","李彥秀","蔡易餘","莊瑞雄","楊曜","盧縣一","涂權吉","羅智強","黃仁","沈發惠","羅廷瑋"],"page_start":131,"meetingDate":["2024-04-29"],"gazette_id":"1133701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員黃捷等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十六條、第三十九條及第五十一\n條條文修正草案」案；二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十\n九條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案；三、委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例\n第二條、第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案；四、委員蘇清泉等24人擬具「兒童及少年\n性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案；五、委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削\n防制條例第三十八條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案；六、委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「兒童及少年\n性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案；七、委員徐巧芯等24人擬具「兒童\n及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；八、委員陳冠廷等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削\n防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；九、委員黃健豪等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分\n條文修正草案」案；十、委員林宜瑾等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第三十九條之\n一條文草案」案；十一、委員李坤城等 22 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草\n案」案；十二、委員沈伯洋等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」\n案；十三、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十條條文修正草案」案；十\n四、委員廖偉翔等 18 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草\n案」案；十五、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第四十一條之一條文草\n案」案；十六、委員王育敏等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；十\n七、委員黃建賓等 18 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草\n案」案；十八、委員許宇甄等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條及第三十八條條文修\n正草案」案；十九、委員王世堅等 16 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」\n案；二十、委員陳菁徽等 16 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；二十\n一、委員王美惠等 18 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案；二十\n二、國民黨黨團擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；二十三、委員王鴻薇\n等21人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；二十四、委員萬美玲等20人擬\n具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第四十四條、第五十一條及第五十三條之一條文修正草案」案；\n二十五、委員賴士葆等22人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案；二\n十六、委員鍾佳濱等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；二十七、委\n員何欣純等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案；\n二十八、委員劉建國等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；二十九、\n委員柯志恩等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三十、委員陳素月\n等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三十一、委員范雲等17人擬具\n「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三十二、委員林俊憲等21人擬具「兒童及\n少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三十三、委員林思銘等24人擬具「兒童及少年性剝\n削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三十四、委員張雅琳等25人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條\n例部分條文修正草案」案；三十五、委員陳培瑜等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條\n文修正草案」案；三十六、委員林月琴等21人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草\n案」案","agenda_id":"1133701_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.78909375,"end":14.712218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15.454718750000001,"end":17.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":17.98596875,"end":18.50909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18.812843750000003,"end":18.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.82971875,"end":18.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18.84659375,"end":19.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":20.80409375,"end":20.871593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.871593750000002,"end":20.90534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":20.90534375,"end":20.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.32596875,"end":36.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.05471875,"end":41.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.712218750000005,"end":43.939718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.97346875,"end":45.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":46.470968750000004,"end":46.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":46.70721875,"end":46.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":47.01096875,"end":48.344093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.07409375,"end":49.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":51.14534375,"end":51.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.360343750000006,"end":53.35596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":53.35596875,"end":60.257843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.37284375,"end":53.406593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.00471875,"end":70.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":60.814718750000004,"end":60.83159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":72.66096875000001,"end":73.08284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":74.02784375,"end":79.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.02284375,"end":83.59596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.03471875000001,"end":88.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.55284375000001,"end":92.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.69159375000001,"end":95.64471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.03284375000001,"end":96.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.65284375,"end":101.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.44534375,"end":104.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.72346875000001,"end":107.44034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.91284375000001,"end":109.29659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.90409375,"end":112.19909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.87409375,"end":113.76846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.24096875000001,"end":118.37534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.16846875,"end":126.86346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.88034375000001,"end":127.63971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.16284375,"end":128.88846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.64784375000002,"end":133.42784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":134.13659375,"end":134.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":134.96346875,"end":135.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":135.28409375,"end":140.85284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.62971875,"end":139.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":141.37596875,"end":145.74659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.32909375,"end":145.24034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":148.46346875,"end":150.65721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":151.28159375,"end":158.23409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":158.58846875,"end":166.72221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.33409375000002,"end":173.55659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.07971875,"end":178.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.68659375000001,"end":179.39534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.83409375000002,"end":182.90534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.97284375,"end":183.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.12471875,"end":186.34784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.70221875000001,"end":189.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.19096875000002,"end":192.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.08096875,"end":195.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.96659375000002,"end":197.21534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":198.49784375000002,"end":200.48909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.91534375,"end":202.1259687500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ext":"這的確是在實務上面如果是有這樣子的情形的話可能是社會上面比較不能...主席站起來相關的討論我們等一下進主條的時候我們一件一件來一對這是為什麼我要求衛福部、法務部跟司法院不要三個藝人一把號各吹各的調你們三個部門統合起來實踐的結果"},{"start":520.273,"end":547.292,"text":"就是我今天這個個案讓這個加害人哪裡有什麼警哪哪裡有任何的警惕哪裡有任何的意旨哪裡有任何的處罰這個體系是在鼓勵他你繼續搞沒有關係啊我們的司法體系對你很寬容啊但這個是社會可以忍受的嗎我可能拜託齁等一下進主條的時候三個部門三個部門的人要認真的面對這件事情謝謝"},{"start":548.834,"end":548.854,"text":"好,謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}