{"error":false,"id":["151918"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":151918,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151918","日期":"2024-05-01","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"聯席會議-11-1-36,23-1","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會第1次聯席會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":1,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"聯席會議","委員會代碼":[36,23],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會","交通委員會"],"標題":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會第1次聯席會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-05-01T09:22:38+08:00","結束時間":"2024-05-01T09:35:56+08:00","影片長度":"00:13:18","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75811ef35c27466b239fad61ef4797421e4149ad024bf7a87f5010e6307119194d9f4a3faaf30f325ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"09:22:38 - 09:35:56","會議時間":"2024-05-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員傅崐萁等33人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員傅崐萁等41人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員洪孟楷等25人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案」案。）","gazette":{"lineno":88,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時23分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請主委。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員早。"],["黃委員國昌：主委早。本院交通委員會成立鏡電視弊案調閱小組，NCC回復拒絕提供資料……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們沒有拒絕。"],["黃委員國昌：請問是誰給你的指示？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有，我們沒有拒絕，我們的公文只是寫請釐清那個重要議案是什麼，以便提供。"],["黃委員國昌：好，這個公文這樣回復是誰給你的指示？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這我自己決定的。"],["黃委員國昌：你自己決定的？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是。"],["黃委員國昌：NCC是你自己可以決定的嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這是行政事項……"],["黃委員國昌：看一下你今天的書面報告第2頁：「本會採多數決決議政務」，這件事情是你陳耀祥一個人可以決定的嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：提供這些相關資料是屬於行政庶務的部分，所以我們在做各行政處分當然……"],["黃委員國昌：你直接把整個NCC拉起來跟立法院對幹……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有啊……"],["黃委員國昌：結果竟然是你個人的決定！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這我們內部委員有溝通過。"],["黃委員國昌：我再問一次，NCC是合議制，還是首長制？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是合議制，合議制也有行政……"],["黃委員國昌：為什麼你一個人可以決定？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：合議制也有行政庶務啊！"],["黃委員國昌：這個是行政庶務嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這本來就行政庶務啊！"],["黃委員國昌：這個叫行政庶務？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：提供資料怎麼不是行政庶務？"],["黃委員國昌：你拿整個NCC跟立法院對幹，這個叫行政庶務喔！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這個資料我們讓委員通過啊！"],["黃委員國昌：今天讓大家看到……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：看到什麼！"],["黃委員國昌：我們NCC哪來的合議制啊！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：本來就合議制嘛。"],["黃委員國昌：根本就是首長制！"],["謝委員龍介：你什麼態度啊！"],["黃委員國昌：第二個……第二個……"],["羅委員智強：滾出去啦！"],["主席：大家安靜，安靜下來，安靜！我跟你們講，大家冷靜下來，好不好？我剛剛已經特別說了，麻煩尊重一下主席……"],["謝委員龍介：委員問你你也不可以這樣！"],["主席：麻煩尊重一下主席。"],["林委員國成：你不要以為他媽的就是你最大，我告訴你！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我沒有說我最大，委員。"],["主席：好、好、好，我們先停下來。"],["林委員國成：合議制就合議制！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們本來就合議制啊，我也回答我們是合議制啊。"],["主席：請大家冷靜下來，不管如何，請大家發言的時候不可以按麥克風來干擾正在發言的人。"],["莊委員瑞雄：大家在吵架耶。"],["主席：沒有，我已經出來制止了。對，我知道……"],["莊委員瑞雄：好啦，好啦，兩個人問就好。"],["主席：莊瑞雄委員，你那個麥克風要關掉，你麥克風要關掉。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我會按下去不是要干擾，我按下去代表我要負責。"],["主席：不用，我跟你說，今天我們大家講好，議事要順利進行……我跟你講，我客氣不代表我好欺負，大家好好講話啦！好不好？我們大家好好講話。"],["柯委員建銘：制止一下，好不好？"],["主席：我知道，我現在就在制止。麻煩，第一個，我剛剛講了，請大家不要在有人發言的時候按麥克風干擾，這是第一個。第二個，今天如果有任何人有太過於激動的動作，我一定會出來制止，不管今天是誰。","我跟各位報告，因為今天所有媒體都在場，我們不可能去偏袒任何一方，該制止我就制止，我們今天就這樣做。"],["莊委員瑞雄：好，這樣就好，繼續就好了。"],["主席：沒問題。"],["黃委員國昌：主席……"],["莊委員瑞雄：我就很愛看這個，他們在大小聲多有趣……"],["主席：莊瑞雄委員，因為你剛剛麥克風有開著，我說不行……"],["黃委員國昌：對不起，我問一下，現在是莊委員要問問題，還是我可以問問題？"],["主席：現在是黃委員詢答的時間，所以我剛剛請莊委員麥克風要關掉。"],["莊委員瑞雄：黃國昌委員在講話，我沒有干擾啊！是大小聲的時候，我要跟你講啦。"],["主席：謝謝，這樣我知道了，謝謝莊委員，接下來就會議繼續進行。"],["黃委員國昌：不好意思，在繼續開始以前，我想請教一下主席，請備詢的官員在我問問題的時候等我把話講完。我沒有請你回答以前，請你不要任意插嘴……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：好。"],["黃委員國昌：這個基本的秩序可以守住嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我請教一個問題，請教主席……"],["主席：你問我可以，請不要反質詢黃委員。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有。職權行使法裡面所謂即問即答，是要詢問的委員來決定，還是主席來決定，還是我們要看情況來回應問題？"],["主席：我在這邊直接說明，因為今天詢答的人是發問的委員……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我要回答的話……"],["主席：麻煩在發問委員問完問題之後，再由官員來回答，一問一答，這樣比較好，不然會一團亂，到時候都不知道誰在講什麼，對任何人都一樣，好不好？謝謝，謝謝主委。"],["黃委員國昌：主席，這樣規則清楚了嘛？"],["主席：我已經講得很清楚了。"],["黃委員國昌：好，謝謝。"],["主席：接下來我們就按照這樣處理。"],["黃委員國昌：謝謝主席。請教一下主委，你今天到司法跟交通聯席委員會以前，你先去了什麼地方？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：先去什麼地方？我去立法院的民進黨黨團。"],["黃委員國昌：你去民進黨立法院黨團啊？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是啊。"],["黃委員國昌：你是民進黨的NCC主委，還是國家的NCC主委啊……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：民進黨基本上在行政權是執政黨。"],["黃委員國昌：今天受到本院司法及法制、交通委員會聯席請你來備詢，處理有關於NCC組織法之前，你還先跑去民進黨黨團，怎麼樣？聽命令嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：溝通法案嗎？溝通法案。"],["黃委員國昌：這個是所謂的NCC主委超越職權嗎？全國人民心裡都有一把尺，我現在跟你進入實質的問題。現在NCC主委被提名人翁柏宗、也是你們副主委，之前在捲入鏡電視弊案的時候他發了一個聲明，那個聲明我看不懂，他說有傳聞提到他本人的部分，「來文部分附件之形式真正性尚待審酌，如果連形式真正性都無法確定，就沒有具體事證」。","翁柏宗在講的形式真正性是什麼啊？我們來看一下，2021年5月19日鏡電視大股東裴偉傳訊息提到「我們和翁副主委溝通過了」；2021年8月4日裴偉再傳訊息提到「翁副主委提醒我們片子流出去了」，這個簡訊的形式真正性，請問NCC確認了沒有？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這不是我們能確認……"],["黃委員國昌：我講的是形式真正性喔！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：不是我們能確認的問題，我想委員……"],["黃委員國昌：不是你們可以確認的問題。好，我再問一個更具體一點……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我想這個問題可以請委員詢問翁副主委，因為他被提名，審查案的時候可以問。"],["黃委員國昌：對不起，我再詢問得更具體一點。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是。"],["黃委員國昌：陳建平當初到NCC接受訪談的時候，有沒有證實這些簡訊都是真的？有，還是沒有？請回答！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：陳建平沒有……"],["黃委員國昌：陳建平去NCC接受詢問的時候，有沒有確認裴偉傳給陳建平的這些簡訊都是真的？有，還是沒有？請回答！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這我並不瞭解。"],["黃委員國昌：你並不瞭解？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對，這個部分……"],["黃委員國昌：你作為NCC的主委，什麼事情都不瞭解啊！來這邊備詢的時候……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員，這個是個人、私人通訊的問題。"],["黃委員國昌：主席，剛剛建立了規則，我們的NCC主委恐怕是沒有要遵守喔！"],["主席：主委，麻煩一下。"],["黃委員國昌：時間請暫停！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：不是，他問我，我當然回答。"],["黃委員國昌：時間請暫停！"],["主席：時間先暫停。我再重申一次，麻煩一下，官員能夠在委員詢問完畢之後再回答。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：跟主席報告一下，因為我不曉得委員問我，一下子又自己講，到底是我已經回答……"],["主席：沒關係，這個有誤解，沒關係，我們等一下繼續，大家就稍微注意一下。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：好，謝謝。"],["主席：不管哪一個委員詢問的時候，就麻煩一下。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：好，謝謝。"],["黃委員國昌：你作為NCC主委，這本來就是在鏡電視的行政調查當中要調查的事情，你既然說不知道，我今天問你最關鍵的問題，陳建平去NCC接受詢問的時候，有沒有親自證實這些簡訊的形式真正性？因為翁柏宗他否認的是什麼？否認的是連形式真正性都沒有確認，可以這樣說謊喔？可以這樣說謊喔？我現在請教你的是，形式真正性這件事情，陳建平到NCC接受詢問的時候，有沒有證實這些簡訊都是真的？有還是沒有？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我不曉得陳建平到我們那邊去有接受這個問題嗎？因為陳建平當時來講，是由我們……"],["黃委員國昌：有還是沒有？請回答。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：好像沒有，我沒有看到這個資料。"],["黃委員國昌：好，你說沒有嘛！好，你說沒有，會議紀錄記好了啦，所有的事情我全部都查證過了，我今天負責任的在國會殿堂跟大家報告，這些簡訊全部都是真的，我為什麼敢說這些簡訊全部都是真的？因為我去找過陳建平，我請他把手機拿給我看，從他手機裡面就是裴偉的這些簡訊，形式真正性、形式真正性！他告訴我，NCC約詢的時候，他全部都說了，我們現在為什麼大家對這件事情這麼憤怒，裴偉直接大喇喇的跟所有的股東講，這張執照要拿到，是蔡英文的旨意啊，結果呢？NCC在面對這些行政調查的時候，能拖就拖、能混就混。","繼續問，目前針對NCC內神通外鬼，提供了很多資料了嘛！包括NCC內部人員洩漏資訊給裴偉，包括有人跟NCC檢舉，結果鏡新聞的副總陳素秋她發言說什麼？她發言說檢舉人，NCC有告訴我是一個自然人啦，地址在內湖，陳素秋怎麼會知道這件事？主委，請回答。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我不曉得你這個資料是從哪裡來，我無從確認起。"],["黃委員國昌：這個資料在上一屆國會的時候，所有的錄音檔陳椒華委員全部都放過了，今天繼續在混，告訴全國人民，我們NCC早就做好了盡職的調查，胡扯！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：陳椒華並沒有提出這個問題……"],["黃委員國昌：這就是為什麼民進黨政府不願意過吹哨者保護法，吹哨者去NCC檢舉資料，結果在鏡電視內部會議當中，新聞副總陳素秋大喇喇的講「NCC告訴我，檢舉人是一個自然人啦，地址在內湖」，然後裴偉傳訊給陳泰銘的內容也是講「NCC內部告訴我」，你們這些洩密，NCC都沒有查嗎？都沒有查嗎？這樣的NCC敢說是獨立機關嗎？有沒有查？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這我們都查過啦。"],["黃委員國昌：然後呢？"],["主席：黃委員可能要注意一下時間。"],["黃委員國昌：結論是什麼？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：基本上來講的話，這有沒有洩密……"],["黃委員國昌：你查過了，結論是什麼？請說明。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這個部分來講，關於相關洩密的案子，本來就是檢調機關在處理當中，所以這個資料我並沒有看過。"],["黃委員國昌：內部啊！不好意思，主席，我只講最後一句話，今天NCC主委在備詢臺上面，這種能拖就拖、能混就混的行徑，大家都看在眼裡，為什麼全國人民對NCC的公正性沒有信任感？就是因為有你這種主委，有你這種調查品質……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我覺得這是莫須有、這是人身攻擊啦，我們在行政院，本來就是政風檢調單位在查，沒有這個什麼莫須有的問題吧！"],["黃委員國昌：你們政風室，這不是你們政風室的權責嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對啊，有交給政風室處理啊！"],["黃委員國昌：你還敢在那邊鬼扯，對啊，是你們政風室的權責，所以我問你處理了什麼嘛！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：政風是第三方機關，不是我們……"],["黃委員國昌：處理了什麼嘛？所以我就問你處理了什麼嘛？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：有調查報告，而且我們把這個都移送給檢調單位去處理了。"],["黃委員國昌：你們行政機關內部有行政機關應該要踐行的行政調查，人家到你們那邊去約詢的時候，全部都跟你們講了，全部都裝不知道。"],["主席：注意一下時間。"],["黃委員國昌：約詢的紀錄敢不敢交到司法？敢不敢交到交通委員會？敢不敢調到調閱小組來？為了就是要究明你們這一種包庇的行徑，所以才要成立調閱小組，什麼東西都不給……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們調查資料都是由政風依照行政程序處理了……"],["主席：黃委員，時間到了，謝謝黃委員。","下一位我們請沈發惠委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":130,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,23-1","speakers":["吳宗憲","洪孟楷","翁曉玲","傅崐萁","黃國昌","謝龍介","羅智強","林國成","莊瑞雄","柯建銘","沈發惠","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","林思銘","吳思瑤","黃健豪","李昆澤","何欣純","楊瓊瓔","蔡其昌","游顥","許智傑","陳素月","徐富癸","魯明哲","邱若華","廖先翔","林沛祥","陳雪生"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1133701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"併案審查( 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前你先去了什麼地方"},{"start":333.322,"end":340.724,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會第12屆第13屆第14屆第15屆第16屆第17屆第18屆第18屆第19屆第19屆第20屆第21屆第21屆第22屆第21屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22"},{"start":361.849,"end":364.31,"text":"傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":384.662,"end":405.275,"text":"有傳聞提到他本人來文部分附件的形式真正性上代審酌。如果連形式真正性都無法確定就沒有具體事證。」翁柏宗在講的形式真正性是什麼啊?來我們來看一下2021年5月19號競電視大股東培偉傳訊息我們和翁副主委溝通過了"},{"start":413.475,"end":431.205,"text":"2021年8月4號裴偉再傳訊翁副主委提醒我們騙子流出去了這個簡訊的形式真正性請問NCC確認了沒有?我講的是形式真正性喔不是我們確認的問題不是你們可以確認的問題我想這個問題可以請委員詢問翁副主委對不起我再詢問的更具體一點這個"},{"start":440.428,"end":462.722,"text":"陳建平當初到NCC去接受訪談的時候有沒有證實這些簡訊都是真的?有還是沒有?請回答陳建平去NCC接受詢問的時候有沒有確認陪委傳給陳建平的這些簡訊都是真的?有還是沒有?請回答"},{"start":463.582,"end":480.188,"text":"這我並不了解你並不了解你作為NCC的主委啊什麼事情都不了解啊來這一天被刑的時候那個主席啊剛剛建立的規則我們的NCC主委恐怕是沒有要遵守主委麻煩一下時間請暫停時間暫停那我再重申一次麻煩一下就官員能夠在那個委員他詢問完畢之後再回答"},{"start":488.251,"end":490.092,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":502.162,"end":526.102,"text":"你作為NCC的主委這本來就是在禁電視的行政調查當中要調查的事情你既然說不知道我今天問你最關鍵的問題陳建平去NCC接受詢問的時候有沒有親自證實這些簡訊的形式真正性因為翁博宗他否認的是什麼否認的是欸連形式真正性都沒有確認可以這樣說謊喔"},{"start":527.623,"end":532.786,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案件,並且擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案 案件,並且擬具"},{"start":551.195,"end":574.289,"text":"有還是沒有請回答好你說沒有嘛好你說沒有來會議記錄記好了啦所有的事情我全部都查證過了我今天負責任的在國會殿堂跟大家報告這些簡訊全部都是真的我為什麼敢說這些簡訊全部都是真的因為我去找過陳建平我請他把手機拿給我看"},{"start":575.593,"end":601.918,"text":"從他手機裡面就是培韋的這些簡訊行事真正性、行事真正性他告訴我NCC約詢的時候他全部都說了我們現在為什麼大家對這件事情這麼憤怒培韋直接大剌剌的跟所有的股東講這張執照要拿到啊是蔡英文的旨意啊"},{"start":604.248,"end":629.743,"text":"結果呢NCC在面對這些行政調查的時候能拖就拖能混就混來繼續問目前針對NCC內神通外鬼提供了很多資料了嘛包括NCC內部人員洩漏資訊給陪委包括有人跟NCC檢舉結果進新聞的副總陳素秋他發言說什麼啊"},{"start":630.663,"end":635.504,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案案案案。"},{"start":649.909,"end":669.77,"text":"這個資料在上一屆國會的時候所有的錄音黨陳江華委員全部都放過了今天繼續再混告訴全國人民我們NCC早就做好了禁止的調查胡扯這是為什麼民進黨政府為什麼不願意郭吹哨者保護法"},{"start":670.549,"end":691.199,"text":"吹哨者去NCC檢舉資料,結果在進電視內部會議當中新聞副總陳素秋大剌剌地講:「NCC告訴我檢舉人是一個自然人啦,地址在內湖啊,然後呢培委傳訊給陳泰明的內容也是講啦,NCC內部告訴我啊,你們這些泄密NCC都沒有查嗎?」"},{"start":696.834,"end":704.119,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．立法院第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．立法院第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．立法院"},{"start":719.828,"end":747.867,"text":"內部啊我最不好意思主席我只講最後一句話吼今天NCC主委在備詢台上面這種能拖就拖能混就混的行徑大家都看在眼裡為什麼全國人民對NCC的公正性沒有信任感就是因為有你這種主委有你們這種調查品質我們在行政院本來在政風是檢調然後再查沒有什麼這個莫須有的問題吧"},{"start":749.212,"end":751.215,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案案案"},{"start":766.429,"end":791.393,"text":"行政機關內部有行政機關應該要進行的行政調查人家到你們那邊去約尋的時候全部都跟你們講了全部都裝不知道約尋的紀錄敢不敢交到司法敢不敢交到交通委員會敢不敢調到調閱小組來為了就是要救民你們這種包庇的情境所以才成立調閱小組什麼東西都不給黃委員時間到了"},{"start":796.769,"end":796.992,"text":"法定人數不足"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}