{"error":false,"id":["151920"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":151920,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151920","日期":"2024-05-01","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"聯席會議-11-1-36,23-1","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會第1次聯席會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":1,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"聯席會議","委員會代碼":[36,23],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會","交通委員會"],"標題":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會第1次聯席會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-05-01T09:35:59+08:00","結束時間":"2024-05-01T09:43:25+08:00","影片長度":"00:07:26","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75811ef35c27466b9dc7e38256bd52cc1e4149ad024bf7a87f5010e6307119192b651861cc72ae2f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈發惠","委員發言時間":"09:35:59 - 09:43:25","會議時間":"2024-05-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員傅崐萁等33人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員傅崐萁等41人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員洪孟楷等25人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案」案。）","gazette":{"lineno":233,"blocks":[["沈委員發惠：（9時36分）主席，我看這個分貝很大，今天整個早上劍拔弩張，好像是我們設了一個刑堂，今天來這裡進行審問，其實我個人是很想在這邊唱一首歌來緩和氣氛，不過時間有限，質詢時間有限，我們還是回歸就法論法。我想是不是先請我們陳主委？"],["主席：麻煩主委。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員早。"],["沈委員發惠：剛才黃國昌委員質疑你說到民進黨立法院黨團來做報告，今天如果國民黨黨團要你去就這個法案做溝通，你會不會去？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：要啊！也可以啊！本來法案也是需要溝通……"],["沈委員發惠：也是會去嘛！如果民眾黨，你會不會看他們比較「小漢」？民眾黨黨團邀請你，你會不會說不去？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：也會去啊！"],["沈委員發惠：也會去，那今天早上民進黨黨團要你來針對這個做說明，這有什麼不對？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：本來就是這樣，這是法案溝通的問題。"],["沈委員發惠：民進黨黨團不能要政府機關來黨團做溝通？國民黨團也常常找政府機關首長去做溝通啊，所以常常情緒化之後就會扣帽子，扣帽子說你就是這樣，所以你是民進黨養的狗，這個說實在，政治不要這樣給人家「潑屎」，潑了之後又不准你反駁，叫你安靜在那邊被罵，我覺得這樣也沒公道。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是，謝謝委員。"],["沈委員發惠：但是我們還是就今天的討論，因為我看今天我們急著安排國家通訊傳播委員會組織法的修改，這個我是不太清楚，因為原本我想說就法論法來討論，但是我看到今天早上的氣氛，我就不太清楚，究竟我們這些提案委員或是國民黨團黨團是對主委你個人有意見？是對人有意見？還是說對現在的NCC委員會有意見？或者是對制度有意見？聽起來大家都在罵你一個人，但是結果他們採取的手段是修法。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：應該都有啦！我判斷應該是都有啦！"],["沈委員發惠：所以我個人認為我們要釐清啦，如果是針對人有意見，那個沒有問題，我們立法院有有這個同意權，同意權行使的時候，對人的意見我們都可以表達，這個就是目前的制度啊，如果是對制度有意見，我們現在就來看我們的制度。主委，我們現行的國家通訊傳播委員會組織法是在什麼時候通過的？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們是在2006年成立的，是在2006年當時……"],["沈委員發惠：有修了好幾次，那時候還有釋憲，現在現行的……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：現行的最新的一次修正是在111年8月8號，111年。"],["沈委員發惠：現在針對今天我們要討論的這幾個法條，其他相關法條的修法我們不談啦，主委，我告訴你，現行的法條……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：101年到111年都有修正啦！第四條來講的話，上一次修正是101年的時候修正。"],["沈委員發惠：對，上一次修正是101年修正的，2012年才實施的。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是。"],["沈委員發惠：2012年那時候的多數黨是誰？那時候的總統是誰？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：那是國民黨的馬英九總統。"],["沈委員發惠：那時候立法院的多數黨是誰？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：應該是國民黨。"],["沈委員發惠：所以今天大家在那邊罵罵罵的這個法是國民黨訂的，不是民進黨訂的。當時就是國民黨訂的法，這個立法有立法的沿革，我們今天來討論，而且我今天看這個……等一下，因為我們不能夠質詢提案人，不然怎麼傅總召個人也提了兩個案子？我實在搞不太清楚到底傅總召是主張什麼？你在短短一個月內提兩個不同的案子，不同的制度，所以我搞不太清楚國民黨的主張到底是什麼。但是我們的立法沿革裡面，關於國家通訊委員會組織法，事實上我們在民國92年的時候就將國家通訊傳播基本法通過了；94年1月21日院會決議，2005年3月我們最後的版本是因為國民黨占多數，經強制表決的結果，然後由行政院提釋憲，那時候說要按照政黨比例，即這個不是由院長提名，而是依政黨比例、立法院提名、政黨提名，結果最後釋字第613號做了什麼樣的解釋、重點？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：後來政黨比例的部分在釋字第613號中被宣告違憲。"],["沈委員發惠：被宣告違憲了，然後它的直接理由是基於行政一體，憲法第五十三條就是行政權，行政院是國家最高行政機關，基於行政一體、基於權力分立，人事之決定立法院不是不能限制，但是限制有一定的界限，你不能取而代之。你不能說行政院不能有任命權，行政院的任命權由立法院取而代之，或者由政黨取而代之，後來就是因為這個釋憲，我們才修法修成現在這樣的制度，對不對？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是的。"],["沈委員發惠：等一下會進入大體討論、進入逐條討論。我看了這幾個法案，發現這不只是回到釋憲之前的狀態，還比釋憲之前更加的侵犯行政權，更加的逾越了大法官所設下對立法權的限制，這部分等一下我們在逐條跟大體討論的時候，希望我們能夠好好溝通。我也希望主委等一下在答詢的過程中能夠心平氣和，因為還是要對立法院、立法委員有一定的尊重。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：當然。"],["沈委員發惠：你還是要心平氣和，他們的目的就是侮辱你、激怒你，你不要自己就發作起來，這樣不好啦！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝沈委員。我們接下來請柯建銘委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":130,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,23-1","speakers":["吳宗憲","洪孟楷","翁曉玲","傅崐萁","黃國昌","謝龍介","羅智強","林國成","莊瑞雄","柯建銘","沈發惠","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","林思銘","吳思瑤","黃健豪","李昆澤","何欣純","楊瓊瓔","蔡其昌","游顥","許智傑","陳素月","徐富癸","魯明哲","邱若華","廖先翔","林沛祥","陳雪生"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1133701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"併案審查( 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案。"},{"start":137.549,"end":162.717,"text":"這個我是不太清楚因為我從我原本想說啊來就就法論法來討論但是我看到今天早上氣氛我就不太清楚究竟我們這些提案委員或是國民黨團是對主委你個人有意見對人有意見還是對現在的NCC委員會有意見或者是對制度有意見聽起來大家都在罵你一個人"},{"start":164.909,"end":189.042,"text":"但是結果他們採取的手段是修法應該都有了我判斷應該是都有了所以我個人認為我們要釐清你個人你如果是針對人有意見那個沒有問題我們立法我們立法院有這個同意權這些同意權行使的時候這對人的意見我們都可以都可以表達這個這個就是目前的制度啊如果是對制度有意見那我們現在就來看我們的制度啊"},{"start":191.998,"end":214.046,"text":"主委我們現在現行的國家通訊委員會組織法是在什麼時候通過的?我們是在2006年成立的,是2006年當時有修了好幾次嘛,那時候還有四限嘛,現在現行的現行的有修到100最新的一次修正是在111年8月8號"},{"start":218.696,"end":219.016,"text":"一﹗一﹗一﹗年"},{"start":247.286,"end":269.947,"text":"這個2012年才實施的那個時候2012年那時候的多數黨是誰那時候的總統是誰那是國民黨的馬英九總統那時候立法院的多數黨是誰應該是國民黨所以這個法其實今天大家在罵罵罵罵罵的這個法是國民黨定的不是民黨定的當時就是國民黨定的法"},{"start":271.73,"end":299.586,"text":"這個立法有立法的嚴格我們今天來討論而且我今天看這個我們等一下因為我們不能夠質詢提案人不然我們副總召個人也提了兩個案子我是在搞不太清楚到底副總召到底是主張主張什麼在短短一個月內提兩個案不同的案子不同的制度所以搞不太清楚說到底國民黨的主張到底是什麼但是我們這個立法嚴格裡面我們這個國家通訊委員會組織法"},{"start":301.454,"end":329.711,"text":"事實上我們在一、欸這個兩期一過九十二年九十二年的時候我們有我們將這個國家通訊傳播基本法通過啦齁九十三年的時候我們欸九十四年一月二十一院會決議啦齁那我們就就就這個二零零五年三月我們這個版本最後在強制表國民黨強制表那個表決那時候國民黨多數啦齁強制表決的結果"},{"start":331.041,"end":340.732,"text":"最后由行政院提示線,那時候說要按照政黨比例,就是說這個不是院長提名而是政黨比例、政黨提名。"},{"start":342.386,"end":369.467,"text":"立法院立法院提名政黨提名結果最後釋制613號做什麼樣的解釋重點後來那個政黨比例這部分在613號裡面來講還被宣告違憲宣告違憲他就直接的理由就是基於行政一體憲法53條憲法53條就是就是行政權行政院是國家最高行政機關那基於行政一體他說權力分立這個有這個"},{"start":373.069,"end":394.659,"text":"人事的決定並不是說不能立法院不是不能限制但是限制有一定的界限你不能取而代之你不能說結果行政院不能任命權行政院的任命權你說立法院我來取而代之或者是政黨來取而代之我想這個這個後來就是因為這個事件我們才再修法修正現在這樣的制度對不對是的"},{"start":395.973,"end":418.065,"text":"所以我想等一下會進入大體討論會進入逐條討論我們現在這個我看到這幾個法案這幾個法案不只是這個已經不只是回到釋憲之前的狀態它是比釋憲之前更加的侵犯行政權更加的逾越了大法官所設下的那個"},{"start":419.266,"end":441.689,"text":"立法權的限制．等下我們在主條跟大體討論的時候希望說我們能夠好好的來溝通那主委我也希望說等下在答詢詢答的過程中你能夠心平氣和啦因為這個還是要對立法院有一定的尊重對立法委員要有一定尊重你還是要心平氣和啦不要人家他們的目的就是激怒你嘛讓你在這邊在這邊侮辱你激怒你你不要自己丟起來這樣不好啦"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}