{"error":false,"id":["151934"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":151934,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151934","日期":"2024-05-01","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-15-15","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":15,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[15],"委員會代碼:str":["內政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-05-01T09:50:15+08:00","結束時間":"2024-05-01T09:56:11+08:00","影片長度":"00:05:56","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75811ef35c27466bc1ef714fa1ee742eaf7b9089f19fa5f77f5010e630711919b4a53015686257145ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李柏毅","委員發言時間":"09:50:15 - 09:56:11","會議時間":"2024-05-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請內政部、交通部、大陸委員會、財團法人海峽交流基金會、原住民族委員會就「針對陸方開放大陸觀光客來台具體回應及作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":333,"blocks":[["李委員柏毅：（9時50分）謝謝，請李副主委還有觀光署副署長。"],["主席：請李副主委還有副署長，謝謝。"],["李副主任委員麗珍：委員好。"],["李委員柏毅：副主委，我們大陸事務委員會就是常常跟大陸方面做一些交涉，做一些談判相關的事務。"],["李副主任委員麗珍：我們主要的工作就是兩岸的工作。"],["李委員柏毅：所以對於對方的思維你應該也是非常清楚，我這樣描述一下，你有意見可以回復我。"],["李副主任委員麗珍：是。"],["李委員柏毅：這一次428中國方面開放福建的人可以組團從平潭飛臺灣，這個叫做……"],["李副主任委員麗珍：這個還沒開，這個還沒有。"],["李委員柏毅：4月28日宣布的是福建的人……"],["李副主任委員麗珍：是福建到馬祖，走小三通的船。"],["李委員柏毅：現在團客的條件是怎樣？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：團客是我們要先開平潭，它再放福建的人來臺灣團體旅遊。"],["李委員柏毅：好，它在想什麼？它為什麼講福建？過去沒有這樣嘛？過去就是全部的團客大家對等，像我們之前……"],["李副主任委員麗珍：從我們談兩岸旅遊協議到開放陸客來，從來沒有這種區域限制。"],["李委員柏毅：為什麼限福建？你認為對方思考什麼？他們最愛講對等，其實我們的對等也一樣，我們的對等就是說我們開放臺灣的團客，它現在準備開放福建的團客，它是不是把福建跟臺灣劃上對等？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：在過去的政策規劃裡頭，他們常常有這樣的想法。"],["李委員柏毅：所以這個如果接受的話……"],["李副主任委員麗珍：這是他們所謂的兩岸融合發展試驗區，就是這樣的概念。"],["李委員柏毅：所以如果接受、同意是對等的話，臺灣就變臺灣省了！"],["李副主任委員麗珍：所以這個不對等，我們的新聞稿已經有對外講，陸方這次所謂的限條件跟限區域就不對等了。"],["李委員柏毅：對，我寧可相信是因為這次國民黨黨團有十多位委員去中國大陸遞出橄欖枝，所以給我們一個福建省的旅遊團，它可能期待未來有其他人士去，然後再提出其他的省分或其他的區域，我們這樣設想會比較好一點，但如果我們把它當成未來就是福建對臺灣，那真的是把自己矮化了。"],["李副主任委員麗珍：我們不希望是這樣。"],["李委員柏毅：所以這一點要先跟國人說清楚。第二個，以去（2023）年來講，我們臺灣去中國旅遊的總人數是176萬，這要請觀光署做回應，對方來22萬，為什麼那麼少？請觀光署副署長回應。"],["周副署長廷彰：我想2023年赴陸176萬是包含所有人去到大陸……"],["李委員柏毅：我們去的嘛？我們去176萬人，為什麼他們來那麼少？"],["周副署長廷彰：因為臺灣對於去大陸的自由行，其實從以前一直都沒有禁過。"],["李委員柏毅：我們是開放的，對不對？為什麼他們只有22萬來？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：因為他們沒有放自由行，也沒有放團體旅客。"],["李委員柏毅：所以是中國大陸方面限制他們的人來臺灣，對不對？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：旅遊的部分是限制的。"],["李委員柏毅：這是不對等的，對不對？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：因為在2019年大陸的陸客來臺灣有271萬。"],["李委員柏毅：所以疫情之後，它開放到其他國家旅遊，但是唯獨……"],["李副主任委員麗珍：138個。"],["李委員柏毅：138個國家裡面沒有包含臺灣。"],["李副主任委員麗珍：對，就是沒有臺灣。"],["李委員柏毅：還限制他們的國人來臺灣旅遊，是中國方面限制，而不是臺灣限制他們進來，對不對？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：我們沒有限制，我們主動說我們做好準備了，歡迎你開放陸客來。"],["李委員柏毅：所以我們今天的目的要跟國人講得很清楚，第一個，我們沒有限制他們來；第二個，團客的部分目前是他們在限制，但是我們都已經準備好了，這跟我們預設的不一樣，我們也以為經過交流之後要為傅總召拍拍手，結果是開放去馬祖自由行。"],["李副主任委員麗珍：對，只有……"],["李委員柏毅：一年6,500個人的自由行。第二個，用區域、用福建省來跟臺灣對等，開放福建人組團，用平潭來跟臺灣做團客的旅遊，現在的狀況是這樣，對不對？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：從對方宣布的訊息可以這樣解讀。"],["李委員柏毅：是，謝謝。針對這個不對等條件的宣布，雖然只有一點點，我們還是覺得很好，對馬祖這邊很好，但是對於這種不對等的、把福建跟臺灣劃上對等的政策，我覺得我們還是要審慎，我們還是希望能開放全部的觀光客，我們都沒有限制啊！用全部的團客來跟對方全部的團客多做一些彼此的交流，我覺得這樣會比較適當。"],["李副主任委員麗珍：是，我們會堅持平等互惠的原則。"],["李委員柏毅：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝李柏毅委員的質詢，謝謝副主委還有副署長。","繼續我們請牛煦庭委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":506,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-15","speakers":["高金素梅","蘇巧慧","張智倫","麥玉珍","張宏陸","李柏毅","牛煦庭","王美惠","黃捷","黃建賓","許宇甄","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","丁學忠","傅崐萁","廖先翔","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳冠廷","陳玉珍","洪孟楷","鄭正鈐","葉元之","黃仁","徐巧芯","林德福","莊瑞雄","王鴻薇","羅智強"],"page_start":449,"meetingDate":["2024-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1133601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請內政部、交通部、大陸委員會、財團法人海峽交流基金會、原住民族委員會就「針對陸方開\n放大陸觀光客來台具體回應及作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133601_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.92534375,"end":4.519718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.79409375,"end":4.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.71784375,"end":7.54034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.81909375,"end":6.443468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.1353437500000005,"end":8.552843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.84284375,"end":16.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.38284375,"end":23.082218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.60534375,"end":28.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.94659375,"end":29.730968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.76471875,"end":30.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.92909375,"end":39.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.89409375,"end":39.079718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.024718750000005,"end":41.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.830343750000004,"end":43.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.024093750000006,"end":45.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.234718750000006,"end":48.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.63096875,"end":51.415343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":51.719093750000006,"end":52.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.29284375,"end":52.664093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":52.900343750000005,"end":53.642843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.486593750000004,"end":58.30034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":56.62971875,"end":57.659093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":58.43534375,"end":60.00471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.22409375,"end":60.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":60.24096875,"end":61.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.257843750000006,"end":60.797843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.60784375,"end":63.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":61.62471875000001,"end":61.641593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":63.447218750000005,"end":70.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.87221875,"end":71.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.76659375,"end":72.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.86346875000001,"end":74.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":75.41159375000001,"end":76.42409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.80784375,"end":84.77721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":83.78159375,"end":92.20221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.20221875,"end":93.46784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.32846875,"end":95.20596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.35784375,"end":96.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.38284375,"end":97.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.32784375,"end":101.16284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.41596875,"end":102.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.08659375,"end":103.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.96409375,"end":105.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.34784375000001,"end":108.94221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.83659375,"end":112.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.92471875000001,"end":124.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.74659375,"end":122.37471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.91034375000001,"end":129.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.95159375,"end":135.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.56284375,"end":134.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":135.90846875,"end":139.72221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.72221875,"end":155.19659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.51721875,"end":165.91221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.16534375,"end":170.95784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.29534375,"end":172.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":173.03346875,"end":174.34971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.34971875000002,"end":178.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.46721875,"end":179.04096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.23909375000002,"end":192.03471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.38909375,"end":199.07159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.08409375000002,"end":214.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.33221875,"end":208.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.03159375,"end":215.79471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":217.95471875,"end":222.49409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.10596875000002,"end":226.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":223.00034375,"end":223.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":227.16846875000002,"end":233.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.65346875,"end":230.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":233.46284375000002,"end":238.59284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":238.76159375,"end":240.26346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.84159375000002,"end":256.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":244.26284375,"end":245.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":247.95846875,"end":247.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.97534375,"end":248.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":248.02596875,"end":248.17784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":248.29596875000001,"end":248.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":252.76784375000003,"end":253.59471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":256.75034375,"end":259.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":259.87221875,"end":263.58471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.98971875,"end":264.49596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.08659375,"end":269.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.38534375,"end":277.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.18596875000003,"end":287.63159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.64409375,"end":295.64721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":291.79971875,"end":291.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":292.40721875,"end":292.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.84971875,"end":303.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.49409375000005,"end":310.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.13846875,"end":313.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":314.07471875000005,"end":318.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.54659375,"end":330.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.56159375000004,"end":336.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.55221875,"end":352.24596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":350.86221875,"end":353.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.39346875,"end":354.06846875}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.374,"end":4.259,"text":"謝謝我們請李副主委還有還有觀光署副署長"},{"start":15.905,"end":40.404,"text":"委員好我們大陸事務委員會其實就是常常有跟這個大陸方面那做一些交涉那做一些談判相關的事務主要的工作就是兩岸的工作那所以對於對方的思維你應該也是非常清楚我來這樣講我這樣描述一下你有意見你可以回覆我這一次428"},{"start":42.083,"end":69.119,"text":"中國方面來開放福建的人那可以組團從平潭飛台灣這個叫做這個還沒看這個還沒有他4月28日宣布的這個是福建的人是福建到馬祖走小三通的船他的團客現在的條件是怎樣團客是要先我們開平潭他再放福建的人來台灣那個團體旅遊"},{"start":71.84,"end":96.628,"text":"他在想什麼?他為什麼想福建?過去沒有這樣嗎?過去就是全部的團客大家對等,像我們2020...從我們談了兩岸旅遊協議到開放陸客來就從來沒有這種區域限制為什麼限福建?你認為對方思考什麼?"},{"start":98.393,"end":111.39,"text":"他們最愛講對等其實我們的對等也一樣那我們對等就是說我們開放台灣的團客那他現在開放準備開放福建的團客他是不是把福建跟台灣畫上對等"},{"start":113.267,"end":127.94,"text":"他們是有這過去的政策的規劃裡頭常常是有這樣的想法所以這個如果接受的話所以這個如果接受如果同意他是對等的話台灣又變台灣省了捏"},{"start":130.6,"end":152.534,"text":"所以這個不對等啦我們的新聞稿已經有對外講說陸方這一次的這個所謂限條件跟限區域這個就不對等了對 所以我寧可相信他是因為這一次因為我們國民黨黨團有十多位委員去到中國大陸遞出感染資所以給我們一個福建省的這個旅遊團"},{"start":155.992,"end":156.132,"text":"李柏毅"},{"start":181.108,"end":188.576,"text":"2023年以去年來講的話我們台灣去到中國旅遊的總人數這個要請觀光署這邊來做回應176萬那對方來22萬為什麼那麼少觀光署副署長請你回應"},{"start":200.75,"end":214.871,"text":"我想這個2023附入176萬就是包含所有人去到大陸我們去的嘛我們去176萬那為什麼他們來那麼少那因為其實台灣對於去大陸的自由行其實以前一直都沒有進過我們是開放的對不對沒有進過那為什麼他們只有22萬來"},{"start":218.018,"end":238.415,"text":"因為他們沒有放那個自由行也沒有放團體旅客所以是中國大陸方面他們限制他們的人來台灣對不對就是旅遊的部分這個是不對等的對不對因為以2019年那大陸的入客來台灣的話是有這個兩百多萬對兩百七十"},{"start":239.334,"end":263.222,"text":"所以疫情之後他開放了他到其他國家旅遊但是唯獨138個國家裡面沒有包含台灣他還限制這個他們的國人來到台灣旅遊是中國方面限制而不是台灣限制他們進來對不對我們沒有限制我們就是主動說我們做好準備了歡迎你開放入客來"},{"start":264.102,"end":287.404,"text":"所以我們今天就是這個目的其實要跟國人講得很清楚第一個我們沒有限制他們來第二個團客的部分其實目前是他們在限制但是我們都已經準備好了這跟我們預設的不一樣啊我們也以為經過這個交流之後我們也要跟這個副總召拍拍手結果"},{"start":288.84,"end":309.628,"text":"來的是開放這個去馬祖的自由行一年6500個人的自由行第二個用區域用福建省來跟台灣來對等要開放福建人組團用平潭來跟台灣來做這個團客的這個旅遊"},{"start":311.409,"end":335.64,"text":"現在的狀況是這樣對不對從對方宣布的訊息可以這樣解讀是 謝謝所以針對這一個不對等的條件的宣布雖然有一點點我們還是覺得很好對馬祖這邊很好但是對於這種不對等的把福建跟台灣想要畫上對等的這個"},{"start":336.68,"end":337.001,"text":"我們會堅持平等互惠這個原則"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}