{"error":false,"id":["151952"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":151952,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151952","日期":"2024-05-01","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-20-11","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":11,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[20],"委員會代碼:str":["財政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-05-01T09:50:21+08:00","結束時間":"2024-05-01T10:02:57+08:00","影片長度":"00:12:36","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75811ef35c27466be91c14483c0f4fb3900bfbad7a56e18f7f5010e630711919effb6f8b230260f85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳秉叡","委員發言時間":"09:50:21 - 10:02:57","會議時間":"2024-05-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部、國家發展委員會、勞動部就「如何改善受僱人員報酬占 GDP 比重偏低現象，導引企業與勞工共享獲利，提升我國勞工實質薪資」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":206,"blocks":[["吳委員秉叡：（9時50分）主席，麻煩請朱主計長。"],["主席：有請朱主計長。"],["朱主計長澤民：委員好。"],["吳委員秉叡：主計長辛苦了！"],["朱主計長澤民：謝謝。"],["吳委員秉叡：辛苦這麼多年……"],["朱主計長澤民：應該的。"],["吳委員秉叡：現在要跟你請教，這是我個人的觀點，你覺得今天這個題目：「如何改善受僱人員報酬占GDP比重偏低現象……」，題目這樣寫，就是把受僱人員報酬占GDP比重偏低現象變成是一個肯定句。再來就是受僱人員的報酬跟GDP比較，從剛剛各部會的報告來看，感覺這不是決然的關係，它是有諸多變量因素，加上統計的方法不一樣，都會造成這樣的狀況。我舉個例子，譬如製造業，以台積電來講，台積電這麼大的企業，每年盈餘這麼高，它的受薪、薪水當然占其盈餘比率相當低，就是跟整個占比來講……"],["朱主計長澤民：對，跟那個……"],["吳委員秉叡：問題是台積電每一個員工的薪水那麼高，是全臺灣最高的，幾乎是全臺灣最高的。"],["朱主計長澤民：對，委員剛才講的重點很重要，就是在主計總處的報告，尤其是第2頁、第3頁的表格，以及第4頁到第7頁的內容，我們已經針對委員的意見說明，就是要看產業特性，可能看全國的資料會有這種現象，可是個別行業，就像你剛才講的，在電子零組件部分，它的薪資分配出去的比率，就是薪資分配占它的產值比率，大概只有25.4%，可是員工的薪水卻是接近10萬塊；而住宿跟餐飲業是一個勞動密集的行業，薪資分配比率占62.5%，可是員工的薪水大概只有三萬六千多塊，所以要看產業的特性，謝謝。"],["吳委員秉叡：產業特性是一個變項……"],["朱主計長澤民：是的。"],["吳委員秉叡：我現在要請教的問題是，全世界有用這樣的方式在比較的嗎？就是受僱人員的報酬占GDP比重的比較，有嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：這是國民所得統計的一個概念，要看薪資的話，還是要看每人的薪資，而不要用比率。"],["主席：有……"],["吳委員秉叡：應該要說國民所得占GDP的比重，應該是這樣說嘛！"],["朱主計長澤民：對，對，國民所得統計上有生產面跟消費面，也有一個所謂的分配面，那個分配面是兩個不同的，所以不能夠把各種觀念混在一起，然後說這是怎麼一回事。"],["吳委員秉叡：同一個問題一直談、一直談，最後就會得出一個結論，那就是我們臺灣的薪資所得占GDP太低了，就得出這樣一個標籤化的結果嘛！"],["朱主計長澤民：這個我剛才講說要看行業的特性。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以我覺得這個議題不能這樣談啦！"],["朱主計長澤民：是的，尊重委員的意見。"],["吳委員秉叡：好，再來第二個問題，剛剛前面幾位委員談到中國現在的經濟環境非常糟糕，這大家都知道……"],["朱主計長澤民：是的。"],["吳委員秉叡：臺灣當然會受到很大影響，因為臺灣現在對中國、港澳出口還占百分之三十點多……"],["朱主計長澤民：對。"],["吳委員秉叡：雖然已經有大幅下降，從將近五成降到大概三成左右，可是中國現在發生的現象，如果依照YouTube上的這些播主講的，全中國現在一個最大的運動叫做「潤」，「潤」就是英文run的翻譯，所以中國人都在跑啊！都在跑啊！有錢人在跑，一般的人也在跑，還要非法入境，從南美洲、中美洲到墨西哥，然後再偷渡到美國，這樣的人數一直增加，所以從以前到現在，都說中國這個地方不是一個合理的照我們經濟遊戲模式負擔風險的地方，它非經濟因素的風險太多了。"],["朱主計長澤民：對，我同意委員的觀點，因為它是一個比較管制的方式，管制的話，就是它的經濟韌性不強、硬把它拉高。"],["吳委員秉叡：它的政治可以干涉一切，政治可以凌駕一切的規則嘛！"],["朱主計長澤民：是的。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以那個地方如果要去的話，我們一再說要風險自負，就像我們以前說投資有賺有賠，你自己要詳細評估風險，總不能賺到錢的時候說自己很厲害，賠到錢都是政府要負責任。臺商靠自己的聰明才智評估這些風險走全世界，很了不起，其實很多臺商也在跑了、也都在轉移生產基地，有很多回來臺灣的、鮭魚返鄉的，也有到東南亞去的，也有到別的國家去投資的嘛！"],["朱主計長澤民：是的。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以真正的答案在這邊，千萬不能說中國的經濟失敗又要臺灣政府負責啊！"],["朱主計長澤民：對，跟委員報告一下，有些人說我們非常依賴中國的市場，事實上我們輸到中國有很多是中間產品……"],["吳委員秉叡：沒有錯。"],["朱主計長澤民：中間產品是人家依賴我們。"],["吳委員秉叡：我們中間產品輸去那邊，它做末端的加工，然後從它那邊出口嘛！"],["朱主計長澤民：對。"],["吳委員秉叡：那一個部分占比歸電子業，絕大多數都是這樣嘛！"],["朱主計長澤民：是的。"],["吳委員秉叡：那也是為什麼中國一直想要搞我們的鬼、想要對付我們，結果它在這一方面沒有辦法像農產品這樣子處理的原因嘛！因為只有農產品不是終端，它們可以不需要臺灣的農產品，它如果有本事把臺灣的電子產品禁掉看看，看看他們的經濟會變成什麼樣子？最好臺灣的晶圓它都不要用！"],["朱主計長澤民：所以我們要一直保持領先的地位，讓我們不要被替代。"],["吳委員秉叡：好，麻煩請你回座。"],["朱主計長澤民：謝謝。"],["吳委員秉叡：接下來請財政部阮次長跟經濟部林次長。"],["主席：請林次長及阮次長。"],["林次長全能：委員好。"],["阮次長清華：委員好。"],["吳委員秉叡：你好。請問中小企業發展條例立法到現在有多少年了？"],["林次長全能：105年實施到現在。"],["吳委員秉叡：從105年實施到現在，在增僱本國籍員工的部分，請財政部阮次長回答，如果照經濟部給的資料，影響的稅額是八千多萬嗎？"],["阮次長清華：根據我們目前統計出來的，因為它有一些門檻的限制，所以實施的期間大概都很短。目前我們統計出來的數據，稅收的減免大概是九千萬左右。"],["吳委員秉叡：適用了四、五年的時間，適用的人數才八千多人，影響的稅額才減免了八千萬，立法院立這個法通過了四、五年，結果你們檢討出來的減稅額度是這樣！所以中小企業發展條例未來延長十年，門檻有一些拿掉了，然後金額提高到150%，你預估會造成什麼樣的結果，可不可以跟我們說明一下？究竟會產生什麼樣的效應？能夠製造出多少的效果？"],["阮次長清華：應該是這樣子，加成的比例如果從130%提高到150%，它的效果等於是說它的投資抵減率是10%的話，就跟產創條例一般大企業研發的投資抵減是一樣的，所以我預估應該會有好轉的現象。"],["吳委員秉叡：好轉是一個形容詞，我要你預估會達到怎麼樣的效果？我的意思是說，這會適用到多少人，當然不是詳細的數字，只要你的估值，關於好轉的現象究竟會影響到多少的稅額，你講一個數字出來，還是署長要補充？"],["阮次長清華：這個是不是請經濟部來說明，因為它有稅式評估。"],["吳委員秉叡：好，那請經濟部林次長你評估一下。"],["林次長全能：關於稅制評估的詳細資料，我待會兒請中小企業署副署長說明。基本上我們有針對比較樂觀的狀況及比較保守的狀況去分析……"],["吳委員秉叡：請說明，趕快說明。"],["林次長全能：這個影響的家數，在樂觀的狀況下，十年大概會超過上萬家以上的家數。至於比較細節的部分，我請副署長來說明。"],["吳副署長佳穎：報告委員，過去加薪只啟動過一次，因為當時有門檻，就是景氣必須要……"],["吳委員秉叡：過去的不講，我現在講的是延長之後的十年，你的評估是怎麼樣？"],["吳副署長佳穎：在未來的話，每年會是207家，未來十年年年都可以來進行，與之前一年只有66位比起來的話，十年內跟過去的十年算起來大概會有三十幾倍的成長，那……"],["吳委員秉叡：三十幾倍，所以十年可以減免多少稅？"],["吳副署長佳穎：有關稅的部分……"],["主席：財政部要準備好一點好不好？不要讓委員在那邊等待時間，要來財政委員會備詢，你們要準備好啊！"],["阮次長清華：因為這本來是經濟部的推估，現在是這樣子，如果是高推估的話，大概是1.51億。"],["吳委員秉叡：1.51億？十年1.51億？"],["阮次長清華：對。"],["吳委員秉叡：那就是平均一年減免1,500萬對不對？"],["阮次長清華：目前的推估是這樣。"],["吳委員秉叡：一年減1,500萬，占全國所有GDP的多少？那比九牛一毛還不如啊！"],["阮次長清華：我跟委員補充報告，剛才我講的是……因為它有不同的評估方法，我現在講的另外一個評估方法大概是7.83億啦！"],["吳委員秉叡：就算是7.83億，十年7.83億就是一年減免了七千多萬。"],["阮次長清華：對。"],["吳委員秉叡：因為今天這個題目是要為受薪、受僱人增加薪水，所以我們立一個法、延長一個法來幫忙要讓他們減稅，結果獲得的利益，符合這個規定的全國企業一年才減免七千多萬，這個誰要跟你玩啊！我的意思是說你們這個方案，經濟部過去做了四、五年，你也不檢討，成效這麼差！今年提出這個方案，要我們延長你十年，效果也是這麼糟糕！這個能夠達到今天題目的目的──如何引導企業與勞工共享獲利嗎？你一年打算高估用七千多萬的租稅利益來引導企業跟勞工共享全部獲利，臺灣的企業一年的收入是多少？占GDP的多少？你們拿這個是什麼東西？拿秋毫之末要比一座山啊！我覺得這個你們要好好的思考，你們今天提出這個案子，實質上絕對達不到效果，在我來看，就算有效果也不知道是萬分之零點幾啊！拿一年七千多萬的稅金打算要去做這件事情？加油啦，好不好？謝謝。"],["阮次長清華：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝吳秉叡委員的質詢，簡直是九牛一奈米啊！","接下來請賴委員士葆質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":122,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-11","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","李彥秀","賴惠員","王世堅","李坤城","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","羅明才","顏寬恒","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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那個委員剛才講到那個重點是很重要就是我們在主計總處的報告在尤其那個第二頁第三頁那個表以及那個第四頁到第七頁的那個內容我們已經針對這個委員的一個意見就是說要看產業的透信這個是就全國的資料"},{"start":109.409,"end":131.092,"text":"可能就是說會有這種現象可是個別行業就是您剛才講的像那個電子零組件它的薪資分配2T的那個比例就是說他們薪資分配的那個占那個它的產值的比例大概只有25.4%可是它的薪水卻是接近10萬塊"},{"start":132.133,"end":150.538,"text":"阿那個那個住宿跟餐飲業喔他是一個勞動密集他的薪資的分配的比例占62.5可是他的薪水大概只有3萬6千多塊所以要看產業的特性謝謝產業特性是一個變相問題是我現在想請教全世界有用這樣的方式在"},{"start":151.718,"end":170.799,"text":"在比較的嗎?都用受僱人員的報酬占GDP的比重嗎?這個是國民所得統計的一個概念那要看薪資的話還是要看每人的薪資所以不要用這個比例不是應該是在說國民所得占GDP的比重應該是這樣說嘛這個是因為在"},{"start":174.322,"end":178.104,"text":"同一個問題一直談一直談一直談最後就得出一個結論我們台灣的新製索的占GDP太低了就得出這樣一個標籤化的結果嘛"},{"start":198.515,"end":217.17,"text":"所以我覺得這個議題不能夠這樣談啦是的尊重委員的意見再來第二個是剛剛有人前面的委員談到說中國現在經濟環境非常的糟糕這大家都知道是的那台灣當然會受到很大的影響因為台灣現在對中國港澳出口還佔30點多對"},{"start":219.352,"end":244.491,"text":"那當然已經大幅下降了從40快將近5成降到大概3成左右可是中國現在發生的現象如果依照這個YouTube上面的這些博主在講全中國現在一個最大的運動叫做RUNRUN就是英文的RUN的翻譯所以中國人都在逃啊都在跑啊有錢人也在跑"},{"start":245.939,"end":272.788,"text":"一般的人也在跑還要非法入境從南美洲走中美洲從墨西哥然後再偷渡到美國去這樣的人數一直在增加所以從以前到現在就講中國這個地方不是一個合理照我們經濟遊戲模式負擔風險的地方他非經濟因素的風險太多了"},{"start":273.716,"end":295.927,"text":"對,這我同意委員的觀點,因為他是一個比較管制慣,管制的話就是他的經濟韌性不強,硬把他拉高那他的政治可以干涉一切嘛,政治可以凌駕於一切的規則嘛,所以那個地方如果要去,我們一再講說要風險致富啦就像我們以前有講說,你投資有賺有賠,啊你自己要評估,詳細評估風險"},{"start":299.348,"end":313.435,"text":"總不能賺到錢的時候說自己很厲害賠到錢都是政府要負責任台商靠自己的聰明才智評估這些風險走全世界很了不起其實很多台商也在跑了"},{"start":314.298,"end":328.845,"text":"也都在轉移生產基地嘛有很多回來台灣的貴於返鄉的也有到東南亞去的也有到別的國家去投資的嘛是的所以真正的答案是在這裡千萬不能說中國的經濟失敗又要台灣政府負責啊"},{"start":329.768,"end":349.324,"text":"跟那個委員報告一下有些人說我們非常依賴中國的市場事實上我們輸到中國有很多是中間產品中間產品是人家依賴我們我們中間產品去那邊他做末端的加工然後從他那邊出口那一個部分占比光是電子業絕大多數都是這樣嘛那一個也是為什麼"},{"start":352.606,"end":356.807,"text":"所以我們要一直保持領先的地位就是說不要被替代"},{"start":381.361,"end":382.722,"text":"中小企業發展條例,立法到現在有多少年?"},{"start":405.382,"end":416.568,"text":"105年實施到現在就105年實施到現在在徵僱本國籍員工的部分部長、財政部次長、阮次長你回答"},{"start":417.645,"end":445.925,"text":"影響的稅額如果照經濟部給的資料是八千多萬對我們現在目前統計出來的就是因為他有一些門檻的限制所以呢實施的期間都大概都很短那目前我們統計出來的大概稅收的減免大概是九千萬左右試用了四五年的時間試用的人數才八千多人影響的稅額才減免了八千萬"},{"start":447.586,"end":473.446,"text":"立這個法叫立法院立這個法通過了四五年你的檢討出來的減稅額度是這樣所以你這個中小企業發展條例未來延長十年門檻也會先拿掉了對好然後金額提高了到150%對你預估會造成什麼樣的結果可不可以跟我們解釋一下會產生什麼樣的效應能夠製造出多少的效果"},{"start":474.406,"end":495.055,"text":"應該是這樣子我們現在那個就是加成的比例如果從130%提高150%它的效果等於是說它的投資抵減率是10%10%的話就跟產創條例我們一般大企業的這個研發的投資抵減是一樣的所以我預估是應該是會有好轉的現象"},{"start":497.296,"end":523.101,"text":"好轉是一個形容詞我要你預估會有達到怎麼樣的效果我的意思是說你會適用到多少人當然不是詳細的數字你的估值你會影響到多少的稅額你講一個數字出來嘛好轉的現象那還是還是署長你要補充這個我是不是請經濟部來因為他有稅室評估好那經濟部次長您次長你評估一下"},{"start":525.85,"end":537.574,"text":"稅制評估的一個詳細我待會請我們那個中華企業所副長說明那基本上我們有分析就是說有比較樂觀的狀況有比較這個保守狀況去分析請說明趕快說明對那這個影響的那個這個加速在樂觀的狀況10年大概會超過這個上萬家以上這樣的加速那至於比較細節的部分我請我們副長這邊來處長說明嗎"},{"start":550.614,"end":561.449,"text":"報告委員,這個在過去加薪只啟動過一次,因為當時有門檻,就是景氣必須要反映。對,過去的不講,我現在跟你講說你這個延長之後10年,你的評估是怎樣?"},{"start":562.489,"end":582.788,"text":"在未來的話我們就是每年會是207家然後所以10年年年都可以來來進行所以跟去年之前只有一年66位的話算起來大概會有3010年內跟過去的10年大概會有30幾倍的成長30幾倍所以10年可以減免多少稅"},{"start":585.549,"end":611.156,"text":"財政部要準備好一點好不好不要讓委員在那邊等待時間人家要來財政部會準備你要準備好啊這樣子我現在因為本來這個是經濟部的推估那我現在是這樣就是如果是都推估的話"},{"start":612.176,"end":617.019,"text":"那麼大概是1.51億1.51億10年1.51億對那就平均一年減免了1500萬對"},{"start":621.82,"end":625.782,"text":"對,我跟委員補充報告,剛才我講的是因為他有不同的評估方法我現在講的另外一個評估方法是大概7.83億"},{"start":643.672,"end":660.543,"text":"好 就算7.83億10年7.83億就是一年減免了7000多萬因為今天這個題目要為受薪受僱人增加薪水所以我們立一個法延長一個法來幫忙要讓他們減稅"},{"start":662.996,"end":675.404,"text":"結果獲得了利益全體的企業符合這個規定一年全國才減免7000多萬這個誰要跟你玩啊所以我是意思是說你們這個方案"},{"start":677.153,"end":705.596,"text":"經濟部過去做了四五年你也不檢討成效這麼差今年提出這個方案要我們延長你十年效果也是這麼糟糕這個能夠達到今天題目的目的如何引導企業與勞工共享獲利你一年打算高估用七千多萬的租稅利益來引導企業跟勞工共享全部獲利"},{"start":707.781,"end":732.637,"text":"臺灣的企業一年的收入是多少啊?占GDP是多少啊?你們拿一個是什麼東西啊?拿秋毫要修比一座山啊?這個我覺得你們要好好的思考你們今天提這個你們今天提出這個案實質你給你了解喔?絕對達不到效果的啦在我來看就算有效果也是不知道萬分之零點幾"},{"start":734.281,"end":734.581,"text":"請賴司保委員質詢"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}