{"error":false,"id":["151958"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":151958,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151958","日期":"2024-05-01","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-20-11","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":11,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[20],"委員會代碼:str":["財政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-05-01T11:08:35+08:00","結束時間":"2024-05-01T11:20:11+08:00","影片長度":"00:11:36","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75811ef35c27466b94c9f6d5d7df023c900bfbad7a56e18f7f5010e6307119191932705a9722646d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"11:08:35 - 11:20:11","會議時間":"2024-05-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部、國家發展委員會、勞動部就「如何改善受僱人員報酬占 GDP 比重偏低現象，導引企業與勞工共享獲利，提升我國勞工實質薪資」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":705,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（11時8分）謝謝主席，我先請勞動部次長。"],["主席：有請許次長。"],["許次長傳盛：李委員好。"],["李委員坤城：次長好。謝謝主席在今天五一勞動節安排這麼有意義的題目。我先問次長，我看昨天有國民黨的立委開記者會，我先問一下，在勞基法裡面有沒有「試用期」這個詞彙，或者是試用期的法條？"],["許次長傳盛：現在已經修掉，沒有這個。"],["李委員坤城：沒有試用期嘛？"],["許次長傳盛：對。"],["李委員坤城：我昨天看到有國民黨立法委員說要把勞工的試用期法制化，而且試用期的薪水不得低於應聘工資的80%，當然就引起很多人的反彈，那就變成你同工不同酬啊！本來沒有試用期，結果你試用期3個月，而且薪資打八折，未來公司在應聘新人的時候，先把你打八折再說。次長，你知不知道昨天這個新聞？"],["許次長傳盛：是，我看到了。"],["李委員坤城：你覺得怎麼樣？"],["許次長傳盛：我想這個是之前，我們現在新的法令就是因為這樣子有後遺症，所以已經把它拿掉了。如果現在又往回頭路，這個部分……"],["李委員坤城：有什麼樣的後遺症？"],["許次長傳盛：可能就變成雇主有鑽法律漏洞的可能性，或者是工資有可能因為這樣子反而下降。"],["李委員坤城：所以新進員工進去的話，沒有試用期，這是第一個，當然勞資是有相關的一些契約規定。"],["許次長傳盛：對。"],["李委員坤城：也沒有所謂的薪資打折的事情吧？這應該有違反勞基法的規定吧？"],["許次長傳盛：我們勞動部現在是訂基本工資，以後是最低工資，在這個之上，當然我們會尊重勞雇雙方的協議。"],["李委員坤城：不是，如果是同樣的工作，新進人員就打八折，這對新進人員公平嗎？"],["許次長傳盛：不，基本上我們是有一個基本工資跟最低工資在這個地方，那接上來，他跟雇主之間怎麼協議或是怎麼談，這個部分是雇主跟勞工之間的協議。"],["李委員坤城：不是，如果是同樣的工作，只是因為他是新進人員就打八折，這樣公平嗎？"],["許次長傳盛：我想這個當然違反同工同酬公平的規則。"],["李委員坤城：好，謝謝。因為今天是勞動節，剛好次長也過來，所以我特別請教您這一題，謝謝次長。"],["許次長傳盛：謝謝。"],["李委員坤城：來，我們請主計長。"],["主席：有請朱主計長。"],["朱主計長澤民：委員好。"],["李委員坤城：主計長好。主計長辛苦了！昨天看到你們發布的新聞稿，第1季的GDP成長率增加到6.51%，主計長看到這個數字高不高興？"],["朱主計長澤民：當然高興，比我們原來的預期高。"],["李委員坤城：比原來預期高的原因在哪裡？"],["朱主計長澤民：是因為出口不錯，然後消費維持平穩，雖然投資還是負的，但是沒有想像中負那麼多。謝謝。"],["李委員坤城：你們本來預期是多少？本來預期第1季是多少？"],["朱主計長澤民：5.92%，現在變6.51%。"],["李委員坤城：就是比預期增加了0.59個百分點。"],["朱主計長澤民：對。"],["李委員坤城：請教主計長，按照你們在2月底對經濟成長率的預估，今年的全年經濟成長率大概是3.43%，如果說第1季的經濟成長率有高達6.51%，那您要不要再預測一下，整年度的經濟成長率會不會再做調整？"],["朱主計長澤民：對，我們5月份會有一個新的預估。如果以0.59來看，相當於年的話，大概是增加0.14%，所以會從原來的3.43%變成3.57%，可是這個是根據原來的預估，我們5月底會有一個新的預估。"],["李委員坤城：但是這個趨勢是成長的就對了？"],["朱主計長澤民：對。"],["李委員坤城：所以主計長對於臺灣今年度的經濟成長率是有信心的？"],["朱主計長澤民：謹慎樂觀，謝謝。"],["李委員坤城：謹慎樂觀，我昨天看到你們的新聞稿上面寫「國內景氣已慢慢轉好，但復甦力道和緩」，主計長怎麼看？"],["朱主計長澤民：這個是經過修改，我的用語。"],["李委員坤城：經過修改。"],["朱主計長澤民：我不能夠說很樂觀，讓下一個主計長抓狂，對不對？謝謝。"],["李委員坤城：所以你的意思是說，你不要一下子把標準設太高，怕他如果達不到會怪你就對了？"],["朱主計長澤民：沒有，我們不是用想像去說，而是估計那個資料，所以我剛才講的，我們估計3.57%也是有依據的。"],["李委員坤城：對，當然主計總處的每個數據都有依據。"],["朱主計長澤民：是的，謝謝委員。"],["李委員坤城：但是在修辭上面的學問就很大了，因為景氣轉好，這個是事實，對不對？"],["朱主計長澤民：對。"],["李委員坤城：但是復甦力道和緩，這個就是你給的一個，怎麼講呢？你不希望給下面的主計長太大的壓力就對了？"],["朱主計長澤民：對。跟委員報告，有一個很好的現象大家沒有看到，就是我們的出口增加，而且出口的單價是成長百分之十幾，這是一個好現象，不像前些時候的出口單價是往下跌，有一點在便宜賣，現在是人家貴貴地跟我們買，謝謝。"],["李委員坤城：不過這個也是集中在一些AI產業，或者是高科技產業。"],["朱主計長澤民：對。"],["李委員坤城：好，本席再請教主計長，從我國GDP分配面的結構來看，我們從最早的70年看到111年，受僱人員的報酬本來是占49.3%，到了111年下降到43.9%，但是企業盈餘其實是有增加的，主計長怎麼看這個數字呢？"],["朱主計長澤民：我必須講，因為營業盈餘是對資本的報酬，受僱人員是對勞動的報酬，那我們的資本從另外一個方向來看，我們資本密集度越來越高，所以營業盈餘會增加。同樣的，因為有資本的報酬，有勞動的報酬，從勞動的報酬來看，表示我們不再是一個勞動密集的產業，所以這個比重下跌還是可以被認同的，世界各國的趨勢都有這個現象。"],["李委員坤城：對，主計長你有專業的看法，但是我認為會不會是因為企業盈餘沒有分潤到員工？這可能也是原因之一啦！"],["朱主計長澤民：對，這也是原因之一，這個是大家共同來努力。"],["李委員坤城：你剛剛都沒有提到這一點。"],["朱主計長澤民：對，剛才主席也有提到這一點。"],["李委員坤城：對啊！所以現在就要提到我們的中小企業發展條例要做修改，這個要請財政部次長過來，中小企業發展條例要做修改，對不對？"],["阮次長清華：委員好。是。"],["李委員坤城：也是有加薪減稅的一個主軸，對不對？"],["阮次長清華：是。"],["李委員坤城：我看了你們的中小企業發展條例的修改，第一個，其實剛剛王世堅委員有提到，不過你們應該有做了修改，就是把這一個景氣啟動門檻刪除掉。"],["阮次長清華：對。"],["李委員坤城：有把它刪除掉，因為過去還有說失業率要連續6個月高於3.78%……"],["阮次長清華：這些都刪除。"],["李委員坤城：所以過去10年其實才2個年度有嘛！所以你們把它刪除掉了。"],["阮次長清華：對。"],["李委員坤城：有關於加薪的部分，增僱員工薪資費用本來是130%，得自當年度營利事業所得額中減除，現在是把加成減除率提高到150%，這個你們也是同意的？"],["阮次長清華：對，我們都同意了。"],["李委員坤城：因為只要講到要減稅的話，你們大概心裡就會痛一下，所以這個你們也是支持的就對了？"],["阮次長清華：是，我們是同意的。"],["李委員坤城：基層員工薪資適用範疇，從5萬元調高到6.2萬元，這個都是修法的方向就對了？"],["阮次長清華：嗯。"],["李委員坤城：好，請教一下，這個條例是到5月……"],["阮次長清華：5月19日。"],["李委員坤城：就是到519嘛！現在如果要延長的話，是要延長10年就對了？"],["阮次長清華：延長10年。"],["李委員坤城：延長10年的話，因為行政院版已經同意了，對不對？"],["阮次長清華：對。"],["李委員坤城：那你們除了這個之外呢？除了這個之外，你們覺得加薪減稅還有沒有其他的方法可以來做？"],["阮次長清華：我跟委員報告，事實上我們的經濟發展是朝向資本密集跟技術密集，就全球各地來講，基本上所得分配大概都有一些扭曲，就是有些比較好有些比較弱的情況，那我們現在的做法是怎麼做呢？第一個，我們希望能夠透過剛才講的租稅減免，鼓勵民間的業者能夠加薪，這是第一個。"],["李委員坤城：好，因為之前的中小企業發展條例對於中小企業的扶助有限啦！過去才2個年度有達到效果，那你們預計在相關的條例修改之後，對中小企業實際上的幫助咧？對於勞工實際上的幫助咧？"],["阮次長清華：目前根據經濟部的評估，增僱的員工大概可以增加4,000人到1萬人。"],["李委員坤城：那薪資呢？"],["阮次長清華：薪資……"],["李委員坤城：薪資的部分呢？有可能因為這樣子減稅之後，大概調薪多少？有沒有這個數字？"],["阮次長清華：大概十五億多啦！根據經濟部目前的評估，一年大概增加十五億多。"],["李委員坤城：如果說到中小企業的勞工手上咧？你們有預估、有算過嗎？"],["阮次長清華：有算過，就是會增加十五億多。"],["李委員坤城：不是，增加十五億多是全部的嘛！"],["阮次長清華：對。至於個別的話，就看每一個職位都不一樣。"],["李委員坤城：可是現在519就到期了啊！這個是禮拜……"],["阮次長清華：明天在經濟委員會就會討論這個案子。"],["李委員坤城：這樣來得及嗎？"],["阮次長清華：就明天討論，我想明天看有沒有結論，如果有結論的話，就根據那個結論來處理。"],["李委員坤城：好，謝謝主計長，謝謝阮次長，謝謝主席。"],["阮次長清華：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝李坤城的質詢。","我們休息10分鐘。","休息（11時20分）","繼續開會（11時30分）"],["主席：我們繼續開會。","接著請王鴻薇委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":122,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-11","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","李彥秀","賴惠員","王世堅","李坤城","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","羅明才","顏寬恒","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳玉珍","黃秀芳","陳冠廷"],"page_start":51,"meetingDate":["2024-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1133601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133601_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部、國家發展委員會、勞動部就\n「如何改善受僱人員報酬占 GDP 比重偏低現象，導引企業與勞工共享獲利，提升我國勞工實質\n薪資」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133601_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.99284375,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1.0265937500000002,"end":1.71846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8.856593750000002,"end":9.649718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9.919718750000001,"end":15.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":16.06221875,"end":19.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":20.078468750000003,"end":24.28034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":24.769718750000003,"end":27.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":28.262843750000002,"end":29.34284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.38909375,"end":30.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":30.70971875,"end":60.696593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.52784375,"end":33.84846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":61.20284375000001,"end":61.62471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":61.99596875,"end":64.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.62846875000001,"end":65.69159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.82659375,"end":66.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":66.23159375,"end":66.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":66.53534375000001,"end":68.23971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.94846875,"end":70.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.65284375,"end":76.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":75.71534375,"end":76.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.06971875,"end":76.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.47034375,"end":80.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.79471875,"end":82.12784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.36409375000001,"end":85.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.60409375,"end":88.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":87.79784375,"end":87.83159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":87.91596875,"end":88.03409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.03409375000001,"end":88.05096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.06346875,"end":90.98721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.39221875000001,"end":92.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.69159375000001,"end":93.97409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":93.97409375000001,"end":103.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.65221875,"end":101.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.70284375,"end":101.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":104.77409375,"end":106.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.54159375,"end":114.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":112.03034375,"end":112.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.32534375,"end":120.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.88971875000001,"end":121.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.95284375000001,"end":122.64471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.96534375,"end":127.18409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.50471875000001,"end":136.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":135.43596875,"end":135.97596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":136.11096875,"end":136.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.19534375,"end":137.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":137.96721875,"end":147.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":147.60284375,"end":148.34534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":147.99096875,"end":148.19346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":148.36221875,"end":150.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":152.42909375000002,"end":153.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":154.96034375000002,"end":155.71971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":156.02346875,"end":156.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":156.93471875,"end":159.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":159.97221875,"end":162.52034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":162.62159375000002,"end":163.80284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":164.17409375,"end":165.05159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":165.27096875,"end":167.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":167.49846875,"end":168.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":168.71346875,"end":170.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":170.02971875,"end":170.06346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":170.06346875,"end":170.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":170.53596875000002,"end":171.09284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":170.67096875000001,"end":194.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":174.06284375,"end":174.87284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":195.39284375000003,"end":196.67534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":197.23221875000002,"end":197.24909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":197.24909375000001,"end":202.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":203.02034375000002,"end":204.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":204.28596875000002,"end":207.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":207.03659375,"end":210.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":210.51284375,"end":211.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":210.93471875,"end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這個比我們原來的預期高比原來預期高的原因在哪裡"},{"start":180.303,"end":180.624,"text":"本來預期是多少?"},{"start":204.786,"end":230.732,"text":"5.9現在變6.51就是比預期增加的大概0.59個百分點那請教一下主計長如果是按照這個你們在2月底的一個經濟成長率的一個預估預估是今年的全年經濟成長率大概是3.43那如果說按照這個第一季的經濟的這個成長率有高達6.51那您要不要再預測一下"},{"start":232.392,"end":242.656,"text":"整年度的經濟成長率會不會再做調整對,我們五月份會有一個新的我們五月份會有一個新的預估如果這樣子是0.59的話相當於年的話大概是0.15增加0.14那我們原來是3.43所以會變成3.57可是這個是"},{"start":261.423,"end":262.904,"text":"國內景氣已慢慢轉好但復甦力道和緩"},{"start":287.352,"end":288.493,"text":"對,這種事我經過修改都用語,經過修改,我不能夠說很樂觀,讓下一個主計長這個略公,謝謝"},{"start":303.543,"end":320.674,"text":"所以李坤城說你不要這個一下子標準設太高他怕說他如果打不到的話會怪你就對了我們不是用那個想像去說我們是估計那個資料所以我剛才講的我們估計3.57也是有依據的你們當然主計處的這個每個數據都有依據啦但是這個修辭上面這個學問就很大了因為景氣轉好這個是事實嘛對不對"},{"start":333.242,"end":334.603,"text":"我們的出口增加"},{"start":350.353,"end":350.814,"text":"主席主席長"},{"start":376.896,"end":384.022,"text":"從我國GDP分片面的結構來看我們從最早70年開始看到這個111年受僱人員的報酬本來是占49.3%但是到了111年下降到43.9%但是企業營運其實是有增加的"},{"start":396.354,"end":410.564,"text":"那主席想怎麼看這個數字呢?這個我必須講這個是因為我們的那個因為那個營業盈餘是對資本的報酬受僱人員是對勞動的報酬那我們的資本從另外一個"},{"start":411.579,"end":432.923,"text":"從那個方向來看我們資本密集度越來越高所以我們的那個是什麼營業盈餘會一個增加同樣的因為有資本的報酬有勞動的報酬勞動的報酬因為那個是什麼表示我們不再是一個勞動密集的產業所以這個比重下跌是一個會是說"},{"start":436.645,"end":457.646,"text":"還可以被說認同的世界各國的趨勢都有這個現象那主計長你有專業的看法但是我是認為說那會不會是因為企業盈餘沒有把那個企業的盈餘分潤到員工這可能也是原因之一對這也是原因之一這個是大家共同那你剛才都沒有提到這一點對對剛才主席也有提到這一點"},{"start":458.871,"end":460.032,"text":"中小企業發展條例要做修改"},{"start":472.318,"end":491.888,"text":"那也是這個有這個加薪減稅的這一個主軸嘛那我看了這一個這個你們的這個中小企業發展條例的修改那其中有一項就是第一個其實剛剛這個王世堅我有提到不過你們應該有做修改就是這一個景氣啟動門檻有把它刪除掉這個有把它刪除掉"},{"start":494.189,"end":494.489,"text":"李坤城議員"},{"start":513.866,"end":515.247,"text":"基層員工薪資的適用範疇從5萬元調高到6.2萬元"},{"start":540.658,"end":560.41,"text":"這個都是修法的一個方向就對了嘛那請教一下這個條例是到5月19號就是到519嘛那現在如果說是要延長的話是要延長10年就對了延長10年那延長10年的話那現在這個因為行政院本已經是同意了嘛對不對那你們除了這個之外呢"},{"start":561.07,"end":588.291,"text":"你們除了這個之外還有沒有什麼加薪減稅的你們覺得是還有其他的方法來做的我跟委員報告事實上我們現在就是我們的經濟發展朝向資本密集跟技術密集那所以我想就是說就全球各地來講大概基本上都是大概所得分配都有一些扭曲就比較就是有一些有一些這個有些比較好一些比較弱的情況"},{"start":589.54,"end":590.821,"text":"中小企業發展條例對中小企業的"},{"start":608.936,"end":608.976,"text":"新資?新資?"},{"start":637.766,"end":660.587,"text":"薪資的部分呢?有可能因為這樣子這個減稅之後條薪大概是條薪多少?有沒有這個數字?大概15億多啦!我們目前根據經濟部目前的這個評估的話大概一年大概增加15億多啦!那如果說這個到中小企業的勞工的手上勒?有算過嗎?"},{"start":661.328,"end":661.988,"text":"李坤城委員的質詢我們休息10分鐘"},{"start":694.258,"end":696.408,"text":"響鐘"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}