{"error":false,"id":["151969"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":151969,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151969","日期":"2024-05-01","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-15-15","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":15,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[15],"委員會代碼:str":["內政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-05-01T11:42:32+08:00","結束時間":"2024-05-01T11:46:48+08:00","影片長度":"00:04:16","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75811ef35c27466bcab2943b409e6827af7b9089f19fa5f77f5010e6307119191c8d1a4ee289610d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"11:42:32 - 11:46:48","會議時間":"2024-05-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請內政部、交通部、大陸委員會、財團法人海峽交流基金會、原住民族委員會就「針對陸方開放大陸觀光客來台具體回應及作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":920,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（11時42分）你好，我們請陸委會副主委。"],["主席：有請李副主委。"],["李副主任委員麗珍：委員好。"],["陳委員冠廷：副主委好。根據兩岸人民關係條例第五條之一的規定，各級地方政府機關、公務人員或者是各級民意代表沒有經過陸委會授權，不得與大陸地區人民、法人、團體或其他機關以任何形式協商簽署協議。可以請副主委解釋一下，「任何形式協商」是指什麼？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：就是指涉及公權力部分的協商還有簽署協議，這個要經過授權。"],["陳委員冠廷：簽署協議一定是要書面簽署才算嗎？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：因為現在的協議呈現方式也不一定是書面，有時候是……"],["陳委員冠廷：如果口頭協議發生了書面協議的效果，算是符合兩岸人民關係條例裡面的簽署協議嗎？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：這個要看個案實質來做認定。"],["陳委員冠廷：傅委員率團到中國去會見中國政協主席王滬寧，在他們協商之後，中國文旅部宣布開放福建民眾赴馬祖旅遊，並等到平潭與臺灣海上客運直航恢復後，就會恢復福建民眾來臺團體旅遊。翻成白話，簡單講就是，傅委員跟中國談完之後，中國就以附條件、限區域的方式來恢復陸客來臺觀光，這是不是所謂的口頭協議卻發生了書面協議的效果？如果是這樣的話，是不是有違反兩岸關係人民條例第五條之一？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：我們還得再仔細地看這個過程，我相信傅委員對於相關法律規定都很熟悉。"],["陳委員冠廷：沒有，我沒有要針對……"],["李副主任委員麗珍：而且不是只有傅委員，還有好多位委員都有去。"],["陳委員冠廷：對，我們必須要有一個完整的指引，現在不是委員熟不熟悉的問題，我沒有要針對個別委員或是要攻擊我的同僚，但是我們的法令要非常清晰，這樣是不是符合書面協議的效果？這樣有沒有違反條例的精神？要先講清楚，不要讓我們國會的同僚有觸法的嫌疑。"],["李副主任委員麗珍：我們要再請我們的法政單位來進一步研究。"],["陳委員冠廷：我個人是反對這樣的作法，因為都沒有經過陸委會的授權，這樣去做是不對的。但是我們更希望作為主管機關的陸委會，要講清楚、說明白，為什麼？因為口頭協議跟書面協議未來可能會產生政治問題，假設未來有另外一批，不管地方的議員也好或者是其他的立法委員也好，再去中國談出另外一個協議，雖然沒有簽署，但是會有實質效果，影響到我國在國際社會的說話權，或者是影響到我國在國際的這些認知，怎麼辦？一樣沒有簽署，只是口頭，不是書面的簽署，但是一樣有政治的效應，甚至是有實質政策的影響。這樣的話，陸委會怎麼辦？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：我剛剛有提到，剛剛委員提的這個問題，我們請我們的法政單位再做進一步研究。當然要說清楚這個部分，我們也會儘快來辦。"],["陳委員冠廷：我想一樣，針對兩岸人民關係條例，重點的精神非常重要，不要以任何的協商達成涉及臺灣地區公權力的協議，這會影響到我們的國際空間。我還是要強調，不可以說因為是口頭的方式，然後就說沒有違反到第五條之一，其實它是有影響的，實質上面的影響是某種程度已經直接造成了我剛剛講到的，附條件、限區域、不對等這樣的開放，我覺得這是不對。好，謝謝。"],["李副主任委員麗珍：有關法令的解釋，我們會進一步研議。"],["主席：謝謝陳冠廷委員質詢，也謝謝副主委。","繼續請陳玉珍委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":506,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-15","speakers":["高金素梅","蘇巧慧","張智倫","麥玉珍","張宏陸","李柏毅","牛煦庭","王美惠","黃捷","黃建賓","許宇甄","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","丁學忠","傅崐萁","廖先翔","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳冠廷","陳玉珍","洪孟楷","鄭正鈐","葉元之","黃仁","徐巧芯","林德福","莊瑞雄","王鴻薇","羅智強"],"page_start":449,"meetingDate":["2024-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1133601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請內政部、交通部、大陸委員會、財團法人海峽交流基金會、原住民族委員會就「針對陸方開\n放大陸觀光客來台具體回應及作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133601_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.9422187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.3303437500000002,"end":2.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.25846875,"end":3.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.78909375,"end":9.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.818468750000001,"end":10.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.10096875,"end":13.227218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.480343750000003,"end":14.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.31971875,"end":18.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.45846875,"end":20.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.48346875,"end":22.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.21721875,"end":25.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.74846875,"end":29.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.13596875,"end":33.713468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.28721875,"end":39.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.14721875,"end":40.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.58159375,"end":42.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.59846875,"end":41.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.758468750000006,"end":47.196593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.41159375,"end":50.048468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.976593750000006,"end":56.815343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.96721875,"end":57.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.844718750000006,"end":59.532218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.962843750000005,"end":65.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.74221875,"end":69.06659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.42096875,"end":69.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.18034375,"end":77.28471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.40284375,"end":84.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.79409375,"end":86.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.41409375,"end":87.66284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.96659375,"end":94.83471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.03721875000001,"end":96.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.67409375000001,"end":97.78784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.15909375000001,"end":99.76221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.11659375,"end":101.58471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.81659375000001,"end":104.03159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.20034375,"end":105.36471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.87096875,"end":107.87909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.85784375,"end":110.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.24159375,"end":119.67471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.83596875,"end":114.22409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.87721875000001,"end":123.52221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.37909375000001,"end":126.00284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.07034375,"end":129.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.49596875,"end":148.26096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.49971875,"end":133.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.66596875000002,"end":150.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.09159375000002,"end":157.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.47471875000002,"end":166.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.78971875000002,"end":196.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.91159375,"end":201.87284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.51409375,"end":205.92284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.12534375,"end":207.62721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.15034375000002,"end":221.54909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.14909375000002,"end":216.92534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.58284375000002,"end":223.81034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.87784375,"end":225.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.46409375000002,"end":230.91471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.33659375000002,"end":232.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.66971875000002,"end":236.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.85909375000003,"end":236.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.97284375,"end":246.81096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.18221875,"end":253.34159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.81846875000002,"end":255.24846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.92784375000002,"end":255.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.24846875000003,"end":255.78846875000002}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.17,"end":3.121,"text":"有請副主委陸委會副主委有請李副主委"},{"start":8.86,"end":33.303,"text":"委員好副主委好副主委根據兩岸人民關係條例第五條之一的規定那我們各級地方的政府機關公務人員或者是各級的民意代表沒有經過盧委會的授權不得與大陸地區人民法人團體或者是其他機關用任何形式簽署協議可以請副主委解釋一下任何形式協商是什麼嗎"},{"start":34.693,"end":46.951,"text":"這是指那個涉及公權力的部分的協商還有簽署協議那這個要經過授權那簽署協議一定是要指書面簽署才算嗎"},{"start":51.044,"end":63.974,"text":"因為現在的協議呈現方式也不一定是書面那如果口頭協議發生了書面協議的效果算是符合兩岸的民間條例裡面簽署協議嗎?"},{"start":65.999,"end":85.811,"text":"這個要看各案實質來做認定是那副委員他率團到中國是會見中國政協主席王惠寧那在他們協商之後那中國武林部宣布開放福建民眾駙馬族旅遊並將在平坦與台灣海上客運恢復後恢復福建民眾來台團體旅遊"},{"start":88.032,"end":107.194,"text":"那翻成白話我們簡單講就是副委員跟中國談完之後那中國就以副條件限區域的方式來恢復陸客來台觀光那這是不是所謂的口頭協議卻發生了書面協議的效果那如果是這樣的話是不是有違反兩岸關係人民條例的第51條"},{"start":111.972,"end":125.769,"text":"我相信副委員對於相關法律規定都很熟悉而且不只有副委員,還有好多位委員都有去"},{"start":126.309,"end":150.309,"text":"我們必須要有一個完整的指引現在不是我們委員熟不熟悉我們要針對個別委員或者是要恭喜我的同僚但是我們的法令要非常的清晰這樣是不是符合書面協議的效果那這樣有沒有違反條例的精神要先講清楚不要讓這些我們的這些國會的同僚那具有觸法的嫌疑嘛"},{"start":152.37,"end":177.43,"text":"我們要再請我們的法證單位來做進一步的研究我個人是反對這樣子的做法因為沒有經過入委會的授權那這樣去做是不對的但是我們更希望說作為主管局的入委會那要講清楚說明白為什麼因為口頭協議跟書面協議它可能會產生未來政治問題假設如果未來有另外一批"},{"start":177.99,"end":206.356,"text":"我不管地方的議員也好或者是未來的其他的立法委員也好再去中國再談出來另外一個協議他沒有簽署但是會有實質效果影響到我國在國際社會的這個說話權或者是影響到我國在國際的這些認知那怎麼辦他一樣沒有他只是口頭喔但是他一定要他不是書面的簽署但是他一樣有他政治的效應甚至是有實質的政策的影響那這樣的話陸委會怎麼辦"},{"start":208.226,"end":208.766,"text":"針對兩岸人民關係條例"},{"start":225.475,"end":252.094,"text":"他重點的精神非常重要不要以任何的協商達成涉及臺灣地區公權力的這個協議那這會影響到我們的國際空間我想還是要強調不可以說是因為口頭的方式然後就說這沒有違反到五之一條那其實它是有影響的那實質上面的影響是直接某種程度已經直接造成了我剛剛講到的負條件限期域不對等的這樣子的開放我覺得這是不對的"},{"start":252.654,"end":252.996,"text":"法定人數不足"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}