{"error":false,"id":["151983"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":151983,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151983","日期":"2024-05-01","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-20-11","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":11,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[20],"委員會代碼:str":["財政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-05-01T12:55:24+08:00","結束時間":"2024-05-01T13:07:15+08:00","影片長度":"00:11:51","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75811ef35c27466bcf10c34c43c8ff10900bfbad7a56e18f7f5010e63071191920fe99b0e8b33c245ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳玉珍","委員發言時間":"12:55:24 - 13:07:15","會議時間":"2024-05-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部、國家發展委員會、勞動部就「如何改善受僱人員報酬占 GDP 比重偏低現象，導引企業與勞工共享獲利，提升我國勞工實質薪資」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":1306,"blocks":[["陳委員玉珍：（12時55分）主席，請勞動部次長。"],["主席：有請許次長。"],["許次長傳盛：陳委員好。"],["陳委員玉珍：次長好。今天是五一勞動節，因為政府機關沒有放假，所以讓很多勞工朋友、職員都要跟著我們一起工作、上班，實在是很辛苦。關於同時放假的事情，你們可能要好好考慮，全國可能要一致，這樣比較方便，是吧？請問你，因為是勞動節，我們當然要特別討論勞工權益的議題，次長，什麼叫基本工資？"],["許次長傳盛：跟陳委員報告，現在基本工資已經改為最低工資。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，最低工資。"],["許次長傳盛：當時關於基本工資的構想，是希望依照社會各種因素綜合考量之後，一個勞工領這樣的薪水，基本上他可以……"],["陳委員玉珍：現在是多少錢？"],["許次長傳盛：現在已經調到2萬7,470元。"],["陳委員玉珍：你知道什麼叫地域加給嗎？例如金門的地域加給。"],["許次長傳盛：大概就是在離島，或者是比較偏遠的地方，因工作的關係給他一些鼓勵。"],["陳委員玉珍：對，因為地理環境的緣故，例如從臺灣調過去，特別辛苦，所以給一點地域加給。請財政部也上來。"],["主席：請阮次長。"],["陳委員玉珍：基本工資應不應該把地域加給算進去？是內含還是外加？"],["許次長傳盛：地域加給是列為工資的一部分。"],["陳委員玉珍：例如給你1萬元，因為你在離島工作，所以再給你1萬7,000元，這樣就算符合最低工資？因為你說要有最低工資。"],["許次長傳盛：在算基本工資時，會把他的地域加給算進來，是他工資的一部分，它會加上……"],["陳委員玉珍：像那天我們在這邊問財政部，如果是同樣的工作，例如從臺灣調到金門，因為離島加給是從臺灣調到金門才有，例如兩位次長，你是本來就住在金門，假設你們都領最低工資2萬7,470元，而財政部次長是從臺灣調到金門，所以他應該領地域加給，假如加給是1萬元，所以他的工資是1萬7,000元，這樣可以嗎？你們的基本薪資會不一樣喔！你聽得懂本席在說什麼嗎？"],["許次長傳盛：是的。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以他應該是領1萬7,000元，再加上外島的地域加給，這樣就是2萬7,000元，如果他調回臺灣，不就只領1萬7,000元？你聽得懂本席在說什麼嗎？這樣合理嗎？"],["許次長傳盛：有關基本工資，當時我們各種計算方式就是……"],["陳委員玉珍：我們現在叫最低工資。最低工資應該是二萬七千多元，沒錯嘛！你看看我們金門縣，這是政府單位，公營事業作業員的工資，是金門縣提報到行政院的。你看，作業員從第1級到第36級，第1級的最低工資才1萬4,600元，這樣也能核准嗎？勞動部沒有意見嗎？到了第17級還是2萬6,880元，第18級以上才是2萬7,650元，我們金門很多作業員，從第1級到第36級都有。你知道本席在說什麼嗎？"],["許次長傳盛：我知道。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以在金門縣政府工作的公營事業作業員，他們的基本工資有的是1萬4,000元，也有2萬1,000元的，這樣合法嗎？政府單位帶頭違法。"],["許次長傳盛：這個部分還要再加上剛才說的……"],["陳委員玉珍：就是你說的離島加給嘛！"],["許次長傳盛：對，已經超過……"],["陳委員玉珍：所以今天這個作業員如果調到臺灣，假設他是第10級好了，2萬1,510元，280個薪點，他調到臺灣之後就是領2萬1,510元喔！因為到金門工作，例如加1萬元的加給，才會變成三萬一千多元，以後調到臺灣就是領2萬1,510元。這樣合不合法？"],["許次長傳盛：他一樣還是要在基本工資以上，這個……"],["陳委員玉珍：所以他調到臺灣就變成2萬1,510元再加上6,000元。他再調回來呢？就變成2萬7加1萬就3萬7，所以要鼓勵金門的作業員先調到臺灣來，先把他符合沒有離島加給的最低工資，然後再調回來再加上離島加給，你聽得懂這個荒謬處嗎？"],["許次長傳盛：是，我知道。"],["陳委員玉珍：我為什麼請財政部次長站在這裡，因為有些公營事業單位，不過你們都有符合，所以沒有這個問題，泛公股銀行也在金門，它們都有符合，但是我們金門作業員沒有符合，而且還送到你們核定，你們勞動部到底有沒有重視勞工權益？金門的作業員沒有符合最低工資耶！縣政府的有領2萬1的。"],["許次長傳盛：我知道陳委員對這個議題非常關心，我們會轉給金門縣政府。"],["陳委員玉珍：不是轉給金門縣政府，你是主管單位，金門縣政府是發錢的，以後任何一個單位如果不符合最低工資，我們來這邊質詢，你也說我們轉給那個公司，讓他來問啊！你們是主管單位，不符合最低工資，不是你們要去糾舉或要求嗎？你聽得懂我的意思嗎？"],["許次長傳盛：以目前基本工資的算法，它加上地域加給九千多塊是有符合的。"],["陳委員玉珍：那我們講清楚，所以任何一個公司在金門，以後請人就是2萬塊，因為現在離島加給大概九千多，算1萬元好了，以後我請人發的公告就是減1萬，1萬7，我徵人1萬7，但是我說我們有離島加給，再給你1萬元，這樣可以就對了！以後這樣公告可以喔！"],["許次長傳盛：公告一定要在基本薪資以上。"],["陳委員玉珍：就是這樣子嘛！你剛說這樣是可以的，我要知道你的標準。"],["許次長傳盛：我不是說這樣可以。"],["陳委員玉珍：以後我招人，我那一家民營企業、任何企業在金門的、在離島的，我說我給的薪水就是1萬7，但是另外再給你離島加給1萬元，可以喔！您瞭解我在說什麼嗎？"],["許次長傳盛：我可以理解，現在就是說……"],["陳委員玉珍：可以這樣子喔？可以這樣子喔？你告訴我可以就好，可以嗎？"],["許次長傳盛：你要招人的時候，公告上面就是不可以低於基本工資。"],["陳委員玉珍：我就講清楚嘛！以後我的工資就是給1萬7，另外給你離島加給1萬元，就符合2萬7嘛！"],["許次長傳盛：這就違反基本工資的規定。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以以後到金門去的廠商記得用1萬7起跳，這樣是不是？"],["許次長傳盛：我想這個部分有一些……"],["陳委員玉珍：因為有的公司是臺灣本島在金門也有分行，以後調回臺灣再另外給就對了？你聽得懂我在說什麼吧！"],["許次長傳盛：我可以理解。"],["陳委員玉珍：這件事情什麼時候幫我檢討一下？"],["許次長傳盛：是，我想我會把……"],["陳委員玉珍：把地域加給排除在基本工資的計算之外，2週內給我檢討，好嗎？"],["許次長傳盛：這部分我們請相關同仁來研究。"],["陳委員玉珍：研究看看好不好？這樣不符合最低工資嘛！對不對？"],["許次長傳盛：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：不然地域概念的目的是什麼？就是說你辛苦，所以你調過去特別給你，你把它算在基本工資，跟有的公司一樣，有的公司很不注重勞動權益都是這樣子，給你講ABCD加一加就有這麼多錢，你們勞動部不能做這種示範，尤其政府部門不能這樣做，好嗎？"],["許次長傳盛：是的。"],["陳委員玉珍：謝謝。財政部，儲蓄投資特別扣除額的部分，以前69年是全部免稅，78年12萬元，現在大概是27萬元。"],["阮次長清華：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：現在進入升息和高通膨，這都沒有檢討，這個門檻，以前最低工資8,800元，現在2萬7，整個物價……"],["阮次長清華：27萬元。"],["陳委員玉珍：整個物價通膨很嚴重，門檻是不是可以調高？因為很多退休的人是靠這個利息過活的，現在利息當然是很低，儲蓄投資特別扣除額的免稅門檻可不可以提高？"],["阮次長清華：目前的儲蓄投資特別扣除額是27萬元，如果按照目前的1年期定期存款利率1.715%來換算的話，存款差不多1,600萬元。"],["陳委員玉珍：對，一千多萬元，我們說的是靠利息收入來過活的人。"],["阮次長清華：但是相對來講，他的資力比一般人高很多。"],["陳委員玉珍：我們現在說免稅，一千多萬元退休事實上也是不夠用，有的人退休後沒有再謀生的能力，有的人比較保守就是靠這個，難道你鼓勵他投資ETF或什麼，這樣風險也很高，有的人就是比較穩健，因為這的確是一些退休軍公教，錢很少啦！你們這個部分是不是可以檢討一下，畢竟七十幾年至今已經很多年了，也應該可以檢討。"],["阮次長清華：這個部分我們當然會帶回去。"],["陳委員玉珍：研究一下好嗎？"],["阮次長清華：但是基本上我覺得……"],["陳委員玉珍：多久可以給我資料？"],["阮次長清華：還是要考慮到衡平性。"],["陳委員玉珍：但你要考慮整個時空環境改變，民進黨、執政黨都這樣說。"],["阮次長清華：1個月內我們……"],["陳委員玉珍：物價也改變，當初最低工資也改變，所有事情都應該要思考一下，好嗎？"],["阮次長清華：但是他跟一般的民眾比較，資力好很多。"],["陳委員玉珍：2個禮拜內給我一個報告好嗎？"],["阮次長清華：1個月好不好？"],["陳委員玉珍：好，1個月，謝謝。","主計長，上次我一直問你金門財力級次調整，你看內政部林右昌部長要退以前，里長1個半月的年終獎金，體察民意。"],["朱主計長澤民：那個要內政部提出來。"],["陳委員玉珍：我現在不是講這個，我只是舉例給你聽，你們主計總處的陳慧娟副主計長，在我們金門縣有開一個首長會議，談到金門的財力分級問題，張景森政委也覺得金門的財力為第三級是不合理的，張政委有找你們副主計長陳慧娟來開會，你知道這件事吧！"],["朱主計長澤民：我當然知道，他也叫我們好好研究，我們一定會好好研究。"],["陳委員玉珍：520之前研究出來可以嗎？不然你要退……"],["朱主計長澤民：我會交代下一任的主計長，他們會好好的研究。"],["陳委員玉珍：這樣為德不卒，林右昌要下任前都把1.5個月年終獎金弄出來了，學習一下。"],["朱主計長澤民：要我同意，他才可以那個……"],["陳委員玉珍：所以你還不同意？你不同意，對不對？"],["朱主計長澤民：我沒有說不同意。"],["陳委員玉珍：你同意嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：他徵求我的意見。"],["陳委員玉珍：你同意嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：我說請他們好好評估。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以還沒有決定就對了？"],["朱主計長澤民：我不曉得……"],["主席：問到晚上，他也不會跟你講答案啦！"],["陳委員玉珍：所以他還不知道，還沒有確定就對了？所以你是打臉林右昌？"],["朱主計長澤民：我現在講如果到這裡，錢的問題我們是通盤考慮，就像你的第五級一樣。"],["陳委員玉珍：就跟金門財力第五級一樣，跟里長年終獎金都要通盤考慮，是不是？"],["朱主計長澤民：里長報酬的問題也是內政部要有方案出來。"],["陳委員玉珍：好好評估，謝謝。"],["主席：接著請黃秀芳委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":122,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-11","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","李彥秀","賴惠員","王世堅","李坤城","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","羅明才","顏寬恒","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳玉珍","黃秀芳","陳冠廷"],"page_start":51,"meetingDate":["2024-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1133601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133601_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部、國家發展委員會、勞動部就\n「如何改善受僱人員報酬占 GDP 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假設你們都領最低工資領兩萬七嘛那我們財政部的次長是在台灣他從台灣調到金門來的那他說他的他應該領兩萬七那他是含他的離島一萬一萬的加給好了所以他應該是領一萬就對了他的工資就是一萬就對了然後再加上一萬一萬七再加上一萬這樣可以嗎你們的基本就會不一樣喔"},{"start":156.943,"end":170.893,"text":"你女朋友的我還說什麼吧?是是對不對?所以他應該是領一萬一萬七然後再將外島的家籍就地域家籍一萬就兩萬七那以後他調回台灣他不就領一萬七?女朋友的我在說什麼嗎?你給我喊你"},{"start":173.254,"end":200.971,"text":"我想跟陳委員報告這個有關於基本工資當時我們各種的計算方式沒有我們現在叫最低工資我們在把講最低工資應該是兩萬七嘛兩萬七千多啦沒錯嘛你看看我們金門縣這是政府單位公營事業作業員的工資這還是金門縣合給行政院的你看這個這種就是作業員作業員從第一級到第36級你們這個第一級的最低的工資才一萬四千六百啊"},{"start":202.292,"end":215.44,"text":"這樣也能準嗎?勞動部你沒有意見嗎?到了17級都還是26880,到了18級以上才是27650啊!我們金門這個很多作業員啊,1到36都有啊!你知道我在說什麼嗎?所以在金門縣政府的那些公營事業作業員,他們的基本工資是也有14000的啦,也有21000的啦!阿你有合法嗎?政府單位拜託違法啊!"},{"start":231.616,"end":243.781,"text":"我跟陳委員報告他這個部分還要再加上他的這個剛剛講的就是你說那個離島佳績嗎對 已經超出了所以這個作業如果今天調到台灣去原來假設他是我們隨便舉他第10集好了21510啦280個新臨 21510他調到台灣去以後他就領21510喔"},{"start":250.458,"end":266.317,"text":"因為他到金門加了1萬才會變3萬1啊舉例那以後掉到台灣他就領2萬1喔這樣合不合法一樣他還是要在基本工資以上所以他掉到台灣去掉到台灣倒來就變成2萬1再加上6千那好他再掉回來呢"},{"start":269.719,"end":281.638,"text":"他掉下來就變2萬7再掉回來再加1萬就3萬7所以要鼓勵金門的這個這個作業員天掉到台灣來先把他符合基本沒有離島家籍的最低工資他再掉回來再加上離島家籍"},{"start":283.055,"end":306.745,"text":"你聽得懂這個荒謬處嗎因為我為什麼請財政部市長站在這裡因為有些公營事業單位啦不過你們都有符合啦所以沒有這個問題我是要讓這一樣是方工股銀行也在金門嘛他們是都有符合啦我們金門這個作業員這個沒有符合而且還送到你們合訂喔送到你們行政院來這個你們勞動部到底有沒有重視勞工權益啊金門的這個作業員"},{"start":308.971,"end":336.845,"text":"沒有符合最低工資有領兩萬一的先政府的我知道那個成員對這議題非常關心我們會轉給金門縣政府你是主管單位金門縣政府是發錢的以後任何一個單位如果不符合最低工資我們來這邊質詢你也說我們轉給那個公司讓他來問你們是主管單位不符合最低工資不是你們要去糾舉或是去要求嗎"},{"start":338.725,"end":364.394,"text":"以目前的基本公司的算法他加上地域佳績所以任何一個公司在金門那我們講清楚任何一個公司在金門以後就是說我請人的話就是兩萬塊再加上因為現在離島價大概是九千算一萬好了以後我請人就是我發的公告就是減一萬兩萬七一萬七我真人一萬七然後說但是我們有外島佳績離島佳績再多給你一萬塊這樣可以就對了以後這樣公告可以喔"},{"start":365.054,"end":366.816,"text":"公告一定要在基本性之下。"},{"start":382.444,"end":401.536,"text":"您了解我在說什麼嗎?我可以理解,現在就是說...可以這樣子喔!可以這樣子喔!你告訴我可以就好!不然...可以嗎?你要招人的時候公告上面是不可以低基本薪資以後我的工資就是給1萬7另外給你...不,這樣...這是違反我們基本工資的規定1萬就符合2萬7嘛所以以後到金門區的廠商記得就是反正用1萬7起跳這樣是不是?"},{"start":402.659,"end":421.607,"text":"我想這個部分就是這樣子嗎?因為有的公司是台灣本島也有分行金門也有分行那以後調回台灣去再另外給就對了你聽得懂我在說什麼吧?我可以理解你這個事情什麼時候幫我檢討一下?是我想我會把把第一佳績排除在基本工資的計算之外你兩週內給我檢討好嗎?"},{"start":424.105,"end":448.9,"text":"這部分我們請相關委員來研究研究看看好不好這樣不符合最低工資嘛對不對換第一概念的目的是幹嘛因為就是說那裡辛苦所以你調過去特別給你嘛那你把它算在基本公司那跟有的公司一樣啊有的公司很不注重勞動權益都這樣子啊給你講這個ABCD加一加就有這麼多錢對不對你們勞動部不能做這種示範嘛對尤其在政府部門不能這樣做好嗎是的"},{"start":450.301,"end":460.291,"text":"好 謝謝來那個財政部那個逐序那個投資特別扣除額的部分以前是全部69年全部免稅78年12萬現在大概現在是27萬現在進入這個升息和高通膨這個都沒有檢討那以前你看門檻基本工資以沿基本工資就最低是8800現在27000那現在的話這個整個物價也通膨很嚴重"},{"start":474.884,"end":475.925,"text":"目前的儲蓄投資特別扣除的是27萬"},{"start":491.905,"end":512.414,"text":"如果按照目前的一年期的定期存款利率1.715來算的話換算的話大概他的存款大概是一千差不多一千六百萬對一千多萬我們說的是靠利息收入來過活的人但是相對來講他的資歷比一般人高很多我們在說這個免稅一千多萬"},{"start":513.354,"end":534.223,"text":"退休事實上也是不夠用嘛那有人沒有在退休後沒有生存沒有沒有在謀生的這個能力嘛但是靠那個有人比較保守嘛就是靠這樣子難道你鼓勵他當你有1000多還不錯很多鼓勵他再投這個ETF啊投什麼這樣風險也很高嘛有人就是比較穩健的嘛因為這的確是一些退休的一些軍工叫錢很少啊"},{"start":535.043,"end":554.88,"text":"你們這個部分是不是可以檢討一下因為畢竟整個有沒有整個已經70幾年了很多年了也應該可以檢討啊這部分我們當然會帶回去了研究一下好嗎當然基本上我是覺得還是要考慮到橫平性當然你要考慮橫平但你要考慮整個時空環境改變民進黨、執行黨都這樣說時空環境改變"},{"start":559.104,"end":559.764,"text":"主計長 時間剩30秒 走路時間要扣掉"},{"start":585.575,"end":611.291,"text":"我要請問你來來我上次一直問你金門財力調整喔那我會領齁之前這個我希望齁你看人家內政部林右昌部長對不對要退以前里長一個半月的年終獎金對不對體察民意那個要內政部提出來我現在不再講這個我在問你的事情我只是舉例給你聽不用急你們的主計總處的陳富堅副主計長喔"},{"start":612.412,"end":639.116,"text":"在這個我們金門縣有開一個所長會議有在說金門的財力分級的問題那張景森政委也覺得金門的財力分為這個第三級是不合理的張政委有找你們副主計長陳慧娟來開會你知道這件事嗎我當然知道他有叫我們好好研究我們一定會好好研究一定會好好研究那在520之前研究出來可以嗎不然你都要那個退休那個是我"},{"start":640.036,"end":663.266,"text":"今天還有20天我會交代下一任的主計長他會好好的演講這樣為德不足啊林佑昌要下任前都把1萬5這個1.5個月的年終獎項都弄出來了那個是由我要我同意他才可以喊那個所以你還不同意來來來問一下你不同意對不對那你同意嗎那你同意嗎"},{"start":666.957,"end":679.197,"text":"好好的幹嘛評估所以還沒有決定就對了是不是今天問到晚上他也不會跟你講答案所以他還不知道還沒有確定就對了所以你是打臉你誘餐喔好陳委員"},{"start":680.828,"end":682.529,"text":"接著我們請黃秀芳委員質詢"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}