{"error":false,"id":["151985"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":151985,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151985","日期":"2024-05-01","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"聯席會議-11-1-36,23-1","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會第1次聯席會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":1,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"聯席會議","委員會代碼":[36,23],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會","交通委員會"],"標題":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會第1次聯席會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-05-01T13:12:39+08:00","結束時間":"2024-05-01T13:24:38+08:00","影片長度":"00:11:59","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75811ef35c27466b5b984ce0593435251e4149ad024bf7a855be169921a0a71728e36e00ee6b56215ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"魯明哲","委員發言時間":"13:12:39 - 13:24:38","會議時間":"2024-05-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員傅崐萁等33人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員傅崐萁等41人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員洪孟楷等25人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案」案。）","gazette":{"lineno":1214,"blocks":[["魯委員明哲：（13時12分）謝謝主席。有請陳耀祥主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["魯委員明哲：還有黃文哲主秘，以及平台事業管理處的黃副處長。"],["主席：請黃主秘、黃副處長。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：不好意思，主秘下午回去主持記者會，先離開了。"],["魯委員明哲：主秘先離開了？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是，不好意思。"],["魯委員明哲：那就請黃副處長。"],["主席：我不知道有人離開，沒有人跟我講有人離開這件事。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是，不好意思。我剛剛是在問……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個一定要抗議，不能這樣子。"],["主席：沒有任何人跟我講這件事。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：因為我剛才在回答當中，沒注意到這個。謝謝，我們改進。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不是改進，你要叫他趕快回來，怎麼可以隨便跑掉？國會落跑，不可以這樣子！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：好，謝謝。"],["主席：在座還有官員離開嗎？"],["楊委員瓊瓔：點名一下吧！我們在國會還是要按照規矩，哪有什麼離開、隨便走掉的？"],["主席：陳主委，我覺得這對國會真的是很不尊重！基本上很多時候有人要離開，他們跟我講一下，我都不會有意見，但是現在我從頭到尾不知道有人離開了。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：他要離開前應該跟……"],["主席：對，他一定要跟我講一下。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：因為他離開的時候，我可能在忙著回答委員，我沒注意到……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：他現在人在哪裡？他在做什麼？怎麼可以這樣子？"],["李委員昆澤：雖然沒有休息時間，但若要離開，也要跟主席說一聲。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對，我不曉得他沒有跟主席講，我本來以為他跟主席講了，因為我剛才在答詢，沒有注意他離開的這個事情。"],["主席：這樣子的話，我跟你講，如果他們成立譴責案，我覺得這是會被支持的。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是。不好意思，這個是我們的疏失，就是我在回答的時候，主秘……"],["主席：這不是主委的問題，我的意思是，有官員離開，至少跟我們講一聲……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對，應該跟主席報告。"],["主席：這個跟政治攻防無關……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒錯，這是我們的錯，我們跟主席道歉。就這個部分，我們請他趕快趕回來，因為他要離開這個會場，應該要跟主席報告，沒有錯。"],["主席：現在馬上叫他回來，一樣沒辦法處理事情，我們還是請魯委員繼續詢答。"],["魯委員明哲：我是覺得有點離譜啦！因為幾年前我問黃文哲主秘事情的時候，他還是處長，今天請他來做證人，結果證人不見了！好，沒關係。","其實這幾年來，每次看到我們陳主委，有時候真的非常非常生氣，但是再看你一眼，氣著氣著就笑了，如果民進黨政府沒有留幾位像你這樣的首長，我想也不會讓賴清德不過半。所以，我在想這個大家期待中立、獨立的NCC在這幾年來，人民的感覺跟我們很多委員的感覺，還有剛剛民進黨的部分立委對您很多表現，也不見得全部滿意，都一樣的道理。所以，我們希望事前能夠透過制度，今天提了一些組織法的修正，起心動念就是希望在源頭能夠提一些品質好的、優良的、中立的委員，在源頭就能夠來協助。因為這麼多年來，我們在事前或事情進行中問你，有百分之九十是一問三不知！知道的，也裝作不知道！一早問你陳建平的事情怎麼處理，你一直往旁邊看，就算事中知道的，你們也裝作不知道，立法院問不出任何東西。好吧！事中問不到，事後結案了，我們成立調閱小組，你也不給問，現在態度就這樣！","我今天就來舉個例子，看看到底發生了什麼事？NCC是打詐國家隊最重要的一員，結果前一陣子已經被起訴在案的前 NCC委員蕭祈宏，他是不是做過主秘？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：他做過主秘，是事務官出身。"],["魯委員明哲：他位居要職，結果居然去當二類電信詐騙集團的門神，月領5萬元，違反公務員服務法的旋轉門的這個條款，我相信你們對這個部分都很清楚，也感覺到我們這機關因為他而蒙羞，他做過NCC的主秘，居然還搞這種事情，還是打詐國家隊的一員。請問你們內部有沒請他來約談、訪談或者詢問？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：因為他已經是平民身分，不是官員；不過我們相關的這個程序，就報導的部分，我們有請政風室去調查，內部也開過廉政會報……"],["魯委員明哲：你們有沒有問過蕭祈宏本人？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有，因為這部分檢察官已經調查起訴，當時檢察官……"],["魯委員明哲：我跟你講，所有調查內容都在起訴書裡面，不要把它當作機密啦，未來當然是法院做最後決定，但他被起訴的內容要比你講的多一百倍啦！你現在講這個，那你當年為什麼約詢陳建平？為什麼約詢民間機構的董事長？因為有關嘛！請問你，為什麼有關？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們是請他到會陳述意見。"],["魯委員明哲：我現在請問一下，你有沒有找人去看，或是你自己有沒有去看他的起訴書？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我自己沒看，但是起訴書這個部分，我們沒有收到起訴書。"],["魯委員明哲：沒有去看喔？對於一個離職的委員發生這個事情，你們只是因為他是以前的老同事而蒙羞丟人，如果是這樣的話，事情還小一點……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員，如果他是現職的公務員，或是有現職公務員在裡面，我們當然要調查，他已經完全離職了，而且……"],["魯委員明哲：我請問你一下，這個蕭祈宏利用他跟NCC以及跟中華電信綿密的人脈，打電話給NCC其他現任的委員，也引見現任NCC委員等官員，請問這個事情你們有沒有進行瞭解？他接觸了誰？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們有進行瞭解……"],["魯委員明哲：不是，誰嘛？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：他當時來講的話……"],["魯委員明哲：現任的喔！我現在講的是他接觸現任的喔！是誰？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們在檢察官調查以後知道是陳崇樹陳委員，就是我們的電信委員。"],["魯委員明哲：陳委員？陳委員這次還沒卸任嘛？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有、沒有。"],["魯委員明哲：他還要繼續幹？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對。"],["魯委員明哲：繼續協助他？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有，我們都依照法定程序去處理，他也經過檢察官以證人身分傳訊過，沒有問題啦。"],["魯委員明哲：沒問題齁？第二個是現在正好在現場的，蕭祈宏安排的NCC平台事業處黃姓副處長，是不是您？"],["黃副處長天陽：是。"],["魯委員明哲：安排您與二類電信詐騙電信集團的人認識，有沒有這種安排？是不是事實？"],["黃副處長天陽：跟委員報告，就是蕭委員有……"],["魯委員明哲：有沒有認識？有沒有見面？"],["黃副處長天陽：就是有見過一次面。"],["魯委員明哲：在哪裡見面？"],["黃副處長天陽：維持一次見面。"],["魯委員明哲：喝咖啡？吃飯？"],["黃副處長天陽：沒有，是在我的辦公室，因為我覺得……"],["魯委員明哲：他就直接來你辦公室了，是不是？"],["黃副處長天陽：因為蕭祈宏委員有介紹。跟委員報告，他是研究論文，因為二五電信的那位總經理也同時在念EMBA，他是說有論文的事情要跟我請教，就是有關電信市場5G的未來……"],["魯委員明哲：你跟他認識？"],["黃副處長天陽：我們只見過一次。"],["魯委員明哲：你知道他的背景嗎？"],["黃副處長天陽：跟委員報告，因為他……"],["魯委員明哲：我告訴你，就算他不是所謂詐騙集團的二類電信，是正常的電信，但他是你們監管的一些單位，你們可以這樣搞嗎？"],["黃副處長天陽：當時5月的時候，他也有說明他是二五電信，是有在我們電信事業登記的電信，討論的論文題目是5G未來發展的議題，我也有跟檢察官如實報告。"],["魯委員明哲：任何人進你們的一個office，之前翁柏宗的機要秘書黃馬煜也是在三年旋轉條款之內就進到鏡電視，今天不問，因為他要來嘛！他要擔任新的主委，到時候我會問他。我的意思是說這麼嚴重的事情，今天在座不分黨派的委員或者在座各位，就是有一位我們的前委員把這樣的詐騙集團帶到詐騙國家隊的核心，我不知道他說了什麼，或者你們願意說、不願意說，或者他願意說的一兩個人、一位委員一位副處長，還有其他他在主秘職位上認識的基層的員工，他到底在裡面做了些什麼事情。所以我在想，我們成立調閱小組，很多的事情包括陳建平董事長被你們不管是約談、訪談、約詢，到了黃文哲做處長的時候，對，約談了，我就要問那些約談的資料你們最後是怎麼處理的？因為早上委員問你，你說不太清楚，人家做了這麼多……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員，我可不可以說明一下？那次的會議我剛好公出，沒有主持會議，所以的確那個案子的印象我不是很清楚。"],["魯委員明哲：那次主持會議的不是翁柏宗嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對，那個資料後來都是送給政風室跟所謂的檢調單位去處理。"],["魯委員明哲：翁柏宗主持會議，會議完馬上舉行記者會的那一次嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：那時候我剛好來立法院，所以我不在。比如說我今天禮拜三就沒有在委員會，而是來立法院。"],["魯委員明哲：好啦！好啦！我覺得你們有太多的秘密，也有很多的不管是內鬼或者內神，我們真的發覺很多的問號，只有你沒有發現。所以我們希望……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們有政風也有檢調單位去處理，我們自己查……"],["魯委員明哲：結果是什麼？你說政風，像這樣的有問題啊！你知道嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：所以檢察官有來調查，他們以證人的身分去檢察官那邊，都已經有調查過。"],["魯委員明哲：所以最後一句話，我是覺得真的，以現在的制度，我們期待一位大公無私的總統要提名不管是4位還是7位，要非常公平、符合社會期待、非常中立、非常公正，而不是假的無黨籍的委員，我覺得是緣木求魚，所以我們才在源頭跟尾巴由調閱小組來努力，我們也希望我們會有一些成果。謝謝！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：謝謝！"],["主席：請問一下剛剛那位聯繫上了嗎？"],["林處長勢玲：聯繫到了。"],["主席：接下來請楊瓊瓔委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":130,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,23-1","speakers":["吳宗憲","洪孟楷","翁曉玲","傅崐萁","黃國昌","謝龍介","羅智強","林國成","莊瑞雄","柯建銘","沈發惠","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","林思銘","吳思瑤","黃健豪","李昆澤","何欣純","楊瓊瓔","蔡其昌","游顥","許智傑","陳素月","徐富癸","魯明哲","邱若華","廖先翔","林沛祥","陳雪生"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1133701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"併案審查( 一) 委員傅崐萁等33 人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案」案、\n( 二) 委員傅崐萁等41 人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草\n案」案、( 三) 委員洪孟楷等25 人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草\n案」案、 ( 四 ) 委員翁曉玲等 18 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不好意思我剛才是在問訊息說這個一定要抗議啊 不能這樣子啊剛剛 他是什麼因為沒有任何人跟我講這件事情因為我剛才也是在回答當中我也沒注意到這個好 謝謝 我們改進來這不是改進來 這要趕快回來的對對對 是是是那怎麼可以隨便跑掉"},{"start":65.489,"end":69.51,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案案。"},{"start":93.327,"end":110.56,"text":"陳主委,其實這個對國會真的是很不尊重啦,因為你們,我跟你講你們基本上很多時候人要離開,他們跟我講一下我都不會有意見,但我從頭到尾不知道有人離開了。對,他一定要跟我講一下。"},{"start":119.926,"end":127.194,"text":"條文修正草案案案件事宜及法律事宜及法律事宜及法律事宜及法律事宜及法律事宜及法律"},{"start":141.905,"end":166.533,"text":"這個如果說他們成立譴責案我覺得這是會被支持的是是是不好意思這個因為這是我們的疏失就是說我在回答的時候我們不曉得那個主秘他剛才有說這不是主委的問題啦我意思是說有官員離開至少跟我們講一聲嘛對應該跟主席報告這個跟政治公那個沒有錯這是我們錯我們跟主席道歉那這個部分來講的話我們請他趕快趕回來"},{"start":167.453,"end":180.069,"text":"因為他要離開這個會場,應該要跟主席報告,沒有錯。好,那這樣齁,一樣齁,我們現在沒辦法,先忙交回來,一樣我們沒辦法處理事情,我們就還是請盧委員繼續詢答。"},{"start":183.662,"end":211.347,"text":"我是覺得有點離譜啦因為黃文哲主秘在幾年前我問他事情的時候他還是處長今天請他來做一個證人結果證人不見了好沒有關係其實每次看到我們陳主委這幾年來我真的有時候都非常非常生氣但是再看你一眼氣著氣著就笑了如果民進黨政府沒有留幾位像你這樣的這個首長的話這個我想不會有一位賴清德不過半"},{"start":213.28,"end":221.63,"text":"所以我在想這個大家期待中立獨立的NCC這是我每次講可是我們看到這幾年真的"},{"start":225.003,"end":251.764,"text":"人民的感覺跟我們自己很多委員的感覺剛剛民進黨立委也部分說對您很多表現不見得全部滿意都一樣的道理所以我們現在發覺我們希望事前透過制度今天有提了一些組織法的一個修正其實起心動念啦起心動念是希望源頭能夠提一些品質好的優良的中立的委員希望在源頭能夠來協助"},{"start":253.425,"end":260.61,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．立法院第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．立法院第四條、第八條及第十條條文"},{"start":269.216,"end":284.861,"text":"知道的也裝的不知道。立法院也問不出任何東西。事後呢?結案了。事後我們成立調閱小組。好吧?事終問不到。事後呢?調閱小組。你也不給問。現在態度就這樣。那我想請問一下,我今天就舉個例子。到底發生了什麼事?"},{"start":292.171,"end":312.636,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第15會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第16會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第17會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第18會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第19會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第20會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第21"},{"start":316.107,"end":318.508,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":332.691,"end":334.072,"text":"三）委員洪孟楷等25人擬具"},{"start":354.542,"end":357.123,"text":"交通委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案案案案﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑"},{"start":384.258,"end":384.838,"text":"三）委員洪孟楷等25人擬具"},{"start":409.997,"end":413.518,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案案案案案"},{"start":427.148,"end":442.401,"text":"打電話給其他現任的NCC的委員也引薦現任NCC委員等官員請問一下這個事情你們有沒有盡情了解是誰他接觸了誰"},{"start":443.647,"end":447.81,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案案案件"},{"start":463.319,"end":464.24,"text":"傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":478.717,"end":495.607,"text":"小啟宏安排NCC平台事業處黃姓副處長是不是您?安排您以這個二類電信詐騙電信集團的認識有沒有這種安排是不是事實?有沒有認識有沒有見面?"},{"start":499.93,"end":517.869,"text":"就是有見過一次面﹖在哪見面﹖也就維持一次見面﹖喝咖啡、吃飯﹖沒有是在我的辦公室因為我覺得﹖他就直接來你辦公室了是不是因為委員透過消遣委員有介紹他說因為跟委員報告他是研究論文因為那個那個二五電信的"},{"start":519.731,"end":529.358,"text":"總經理也同時在念那個ENBA他是說有論文的事情要跟我們請教就是舊電信市場5G問題但你跟他認識你知道他的背景嗎?"},{"start":531.85,"end":546.617,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案（事由．立法院第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．立法院第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第4會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第6會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第7會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第8會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第9會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第10會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第11會期司法及"},{"start":559.588,"end":581.713,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第15會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第16會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第17會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第18會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第19會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第20會期司法及法制、交通委員會組�"},{"start":583.513,"end":594.924,"text":"就是有一位我們的前委員把這樣的詐騙集團帶到詐騙國家隊的核心我不知道他說了什麼或者你們願意說不願意說或者他"},{"start":596.049,"end":614.63,"text":"立法院第11會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第十條條文修正草案（事由．立法院第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第16會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第17會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第18會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第19會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第20會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第21會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第22會期司法及法制"},{"start":617.353,"end":644.771,"text":"華文哲當時做處長的時候說對約談了我就要問那些約團的資料你們最後是怎麼處理的因為早上委員問你說不太清楚人家做的都這麼多陣欸委員我可不可以說明一下那一次那個會議我剛好公出沒有組織會議所以的確那個案子的印象我不是很清楚不是那組織會議不是翁伯忠嗎對那個資料後來都是送給孫鋒士跟所謂的檢調單位去處理"},{"start":648.914,"end":650.815,"text":"公博中組織會議主持會議完馬上舉行記者會的那一次嗎?"},{"start":663.217,"end":668.921,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．一）立法院第12屆第13屆議員會組織法第14屆議員會組織法第16屆議員會組織法第17屆議員會組織法第18屆議員會組織法第18屆議員會組織法第19屆議員會組織法第20屆議員會組織法第21屆議員會組織法第22屆議員會組織法第23屆議員會組織法第24屆議員會組織法第27屆議員會組織法第28屆議員會組織法第29屆議員會組織法第30屆議員會組"},{"start":682.412,"end":684.534,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":698.595,"end":705.181,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案．立法院第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案．立法院第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案．立法院第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}