{"error":false,"id":["152015"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":152015,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152015","日期":"2024-05-02","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"聯席會議-11-1-20,15,19,22,23,26-1","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期財政、內政、經濟、教育及文化、交通、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":1,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"聯席會議","委員會代碼":[20,15,19,22,23,26],"委員會代碼:str":["財政委員會","內政委員會","經濟委員會","教育及文化委員會","交通委員會","社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政、內政、經濟、教育及文化、交通、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-05-02T09:44:42+08:00","結束時間":"2024-05-02T09:52:31+08:00","影片長度":"00:07:49","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6f015fe8e6787db1ef587ff502ac01eae5dad6307223f0f855be169921a0a7178775ffc34e28c48f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳秉叡","委員發言時間":"09:44:42 - 09:52:31","會議時間":"2024-05-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政、內政、經濟、教育及文化、交通、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查或處理「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第4期特別預算(112至113年度)」及「中央政府疫後強化經濟與社會韌性及全民共享經濟成果特別預算」決議：\n一、有關教育部主管預算凍結書面報告案4案。\n二、有關經濟部主管預算凍結書面報告案9案。\n三、有關交通部主管預算凍結書面報告案14案。\n四、有關行政院農業委員會主管預算凍結書面報告案3案。\n五、有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結書面報告案11案。\n六、有關文化部主管預算凍結書面報告案1案。\n七、有關數位發展部主管預算凍結書面報告案7案。\n八、有關原住民族委員會預算凍結書面報告案1案。\n九、有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案3案。\n十、有關行政院環境保護署預算凍結書面報告案1案。\n十一、有關國家科學及技術委員會主管預算凍結書面報告案2案。）","gazette":{"lineno":242,"blocks":[["吳委員秉叡：（9時44分）主席，麻煩請內政部花次長。"],["主席：內政部花次長請。"],["花次長敬群：委員好。"],["吳委員秉叡：次長早。花蓮403地震，全國人民都很關心，除了中央有捐款，也有人直接捐到花蓮縣政府之外，是中央對花蓮縣的救災要求沒有承諾嗎？"],["花次長敬群：當然有承諾。"],["吳委員秉叡：有承諾，他盤點清楚受損的部分沒有？"],["花次長敬群：目前當然花蓮陸陸續續盤點出來，現階段有十幾棟大概會有可能要拆除，或者是整個要……"],["吳委員秉叡：那是建築物的部分啦！"],["花次長敬群：對，建築物。"],["吳委員秉叡：另外道路的還有其他的，這些工程的搶修不是已經在進行了嗎？"],["花次長敬群：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：現在中央政府也同意，至少有匡列了250億以上馬上要投入救災，那為什麼還需要一個什麼特別條例？而且特別條例所要求的規模才150億，還遠遠不如中央政府的預算規模，並且中央政府不用經過立法的程序馬上就要做，然後現在還要弄一個特別條例，要經過本院立法，立法程序走完之後，再由行政院來編列預算，然後再進行，目的是150億，比行政院現在已經願意馬上投入執行的250億還要少，這是在幹嘛？"],["花次長敬群：確實啦！但我想以現在行政院用方案的方式來執行，其實效率跟規模都會符合災民的需求。"],["吳委員秉叡：我現在的意思是，我懷疑是不是花蓮縣政府跟中央之間的溝通有問題啊？會不會是花蓮縣政府要報什麼救災的計畫來，結果中央政府不接受；還是中央政府要他盤點清楚哪一些東西要救災要趕快進行，然後他不給你，到底是哪一種狀況？"],["花次長敬群：應該沒有花蓮需要中央的協助，而中央不處理，這個基本上是沒有啦！"],["吳委員秉叡：那有沒有中央要花蓮盤點受災的狀況，而花蓮不報的？"],["花次長敬群：我想各部會可能都有不同的狀況，當然有些資訊確實慢了一些。"],["吳委員秉叡：好，如果是這樣的話，就回到我剛剛講的，中央政府尤其行政機關在沒有這些特別條例的狀況下已經匡列250億，馬上要投入救災，只要計畫報來，確實就要進行，對不對？"],["花次長敬群：甚至我們也會主動下去……"],["吳委員秉叡：去瞭解，所以我現在的意思是，內政部要主動去瞭解。"],["花次長敬群：有、有、有。"],["吳委員秉叡：好，如果是這樣的話，以這樣子的速度，今天報來，確定後明天就可以做，甚至今天就可以做，有需要來提一個震災的特別條例嗎？特別條例是一個法律案耶！法律案要到本院來審查，法律案的審查在立法院再快，即使直接抽出逕付二讀也要好幾個禮拜啊！之後再根據這個特別條例由行政院編列預算，再經過本院審查，這個預算的審查再快也要兩、三個禮拜。馬上就可以做的事情，有需要經過兩、三個月的程序去立一個特別條例，然後再編列預算來做嗎？這是第一個我不懂的地方啦！這是在幹嘛？我不瞭解，所以我想請教你的看法，這是在幹嘛？"],["花次長敬群：我們現階段大概也認為沒有必要用特別條例啦！而已經執行的，例如我們的租金補貼，其實現在大概有七百多戶已經來申請了，我們核定就給他了，他馬上就可以享受政府的協助了。"],["吳委員秉叡：第二個問題，我就想到臺灣非常重要的慈善機構，也是宗教團體，叫做慈濟，它的大本營就是在花蓮，對不對？"],["花次長敬群：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：慈濟在全世界救災，全世界到處去喔！連非洲、中南美洲各地、土耳其，只要有震災的地方，它都派人去支援，也弄了非常多的組合屋，你知道嗎？"],["花次長敬群：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：包括二十多年前的921地震，它也弄了非常多的組合屋啊！臺灣組合屋不夠嗎？"],["花次長敬群：以目前花蓮的狀況，甚至有沒有需要組合屋都還要再詳細地評估一下。"],["吳委員秉叡：有沒有需要組合屋，需要詳細的promote，那就算有需要組合屋，臺灣組合屋不夠嗎？是政府不願意提供，還是慈善團體不願意提供？100間組合屋需要從中國特別運過來，要中國特別來救濟，有這樣的需求嗎？"],["花次長敬群：應該是沒有。"],["吳委員秉叡：一間組合屋的估價，你估價是多少？"],["花次長敬群：其實有不同的推估，我們前一陣子有請公會幫忙評估，大概算一坪的話，我們還是用坪的角度來看，一坪大概在7、8萬塊。"],["吳委員秉叡：一坪7、8萬塊，那組合屋一般是多少坪？"],["花次長敬群：20坪、30坪，20坪左右的比較多、十幾坪到20坪。"],["吳委員秉叡：那就是一百多萬。"],["花次長敬群：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：你講的這個是在當地施工的喔！"],["花次長敬群：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：如果是從中國那邊運一百間過來，透過海運、空運運過來這邊組裝，那要花多少錢？"],["花次長敬群：這個我就不是很清楚，運費應該不便宜。"],["吳委員秉叡：那就很奇怪啊！沒有需要，遠巴巴地那麼多人去中國就乞討100間的組合屋，我們不見得需要。就算有需要，臺灣也絕對供應得起，這是在做什麼？我都搞不懂這是在幹嘛！最近我覺得跟社會越來越脫節了，做了很多事情，我越來越搞不懂，邏輯上不清楚啊！為什麼這樣？今天如果中央政府不願意給你補助經費，像當年高雄氣爆，那時候中央政府不願意給高雄補助，這次地震全國人民都在關心，中央政府第一時間說立刻就給，也已經匡列250億在那邊等，這樣子還要弄一個特別條例。再來，臺灣又不缺組合屋，臺灣隨時也有人願意提供組合屋，臺灣的善心人士很多。"],["花次長敬群：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：真的有實際需要，這哪裡是問題！100間組合屋，是什麼問題？"],["花次長敬群：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：一定有，社會上這麼多人有愛心可以提供。我也願意，如果有這樣的機會，我也願意效綿薄之力啊！在這樣的狀況之下，到底在幹嘛？我實在是看不懂。內政部，我覺得你要加油，跟地方政府多溝通。"],["花次長敬群：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：地方政府有什麼需要，是不是我們不夠瞭解？我們的關懷度不夠，讓地方政府覺得我們都沒有在關心它嗎？"],["花次長敬群：我們都會持續盤點我們的租金補貼，跟現在交通部提供的旅館這個部分合起來，其實有超過三千戶的協助。"],["吳委員秉叡：因為民政系統是在你們手裡，所以我說對地方政府要多關懷。"],["花次長敬群：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：不要讓地方政府覺得他們跟我們之間有很大的隔閡。我本將心向明月，不要明月照溝渠！"],["花次長敬群：瞭解。"],["吳委員秉叡：拜託你。"],["花次長敬群：好，我們會積極，謝謝委員指導。"],["主席（郭委員國文）：謝謝吳秉叡委員質詢。接著請賴士葆委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":122,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-20,15,19,22,23,26-1","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","陳亭妃","吳秉叡","賴士葆","萬美玲","洪孟楷","吳沛憶","葛如鈞","王鴻薇","李彥秀","蘇巧慧","林宜瑾","陳菁徽","陳培瑜","陳昭姿","陳玉珍","張宏陸","游顥","陳秀寳","鄭正鈐","羅廷瑋","徐富癸","黃秀芳","郭昱晴","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李昆澤","李坤城","陳素月","楊瓊瓔","羅明才","王世堅","黃健豪","王美惠","范雲","張雅琳","林月琴","王正旭","賴瑞隆","吳春城","徐欣瑩","鍾佳濱","邱志偉","顏寬恒","謝衣鳯","葉元之","蘇清泉","盧縣一","陳超明","李柏毅","林岱樺","劉建國","邱議瑩","張嘉郡","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","王育敏","牛煦庭","吳琪銘","蔡易餘","賴惠員"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-02"],"gazette_id":"1133901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政、內政、經濟、教育及文化、交通、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查或處理「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第 4期特別預算(112至113年度)」及「中央政府疫後強\n化經濟與社會韌性及全民共享經濟成果特別預算」決議：一、有關教育部主管預算凍結書面報告\n案4案；二、有關經濟部主管預算凍結書面報告案9案；三、有關交通部主管預算凍結書面報告案\n14案；四、有關行政院農業委員會主管預算凍結書面報告案 3案；五、有關衛生福利部主管預算\n凍結書面報告案11案；六、有關文化部主管預算凍結書面報告案1案；七、有關數位發展部主管\n預算凍結書面報告案7案；八、有關原住民族委員會預算凍結書面報告案1案；九、有關內政部主\n管預算凍結書面報告案3案；十、有關行政院環境保護署預算凍結書面報告案1案；十一、有關國\n家科學及技術委員會主管預算凍結書面報告案2案","agenda_id":"1133901_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.0553437500000005,"end":7.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.164718750000002,"end":9.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.825343750000002,"end":21.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.06971875,"end":22.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.980968750000002,"end":31.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.39721875,"end":36.970343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.56096875,"end":38.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.67034375,"end":40.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.12159375,"end":42.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.16784375,"end":42.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.50534375,"end":42.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.52221875,"end":42.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.53909375,"end":42.555968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.555968750000005,"end":42.977843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.977843750000005,"end":43.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.09159375,"end":45.407843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.369718750000004,"end":59.29596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.05159375,"end":57.760343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.55346875,"end":58.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.009093750000005,"end":61.37159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.641593750000006,"end":66.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.61971875,"end":73.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.60596875,"end":77.99346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.82034375,"end":79.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.91284375000001,"end":102.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.91784375,"end":103.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.95971875000001,"end":111.49034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.09784375000001,"end":113.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.46471875,"end":119.30346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.87721875000001,"end":134.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.96346875,"end":141.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.81471875,"end":144.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.97034375,"end":152.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.86784375000002,"end":153.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.03659375,"end":155.44971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.93909375,"end":174.02909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.13534375,"end":169.79346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.38346875000002,"end":175.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.27346875,"end":182.90534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.25971875000002,"end":187.05659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.30971875,"end":191.74784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.98409375,"end":195.42659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.42659375000002,"end":195.78096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.01721875,"end":198.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.86909375000002,"end":200.05034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.64096875,"end":202.64909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.20596875,"end":205.12971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.16346875000002,"end":207.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.20909375000002,"end":219.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.03034375000001,"end":220.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.59971875000002,"end":222.46034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.00034375,"end":225.46409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.52721875,"end":243.11534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.11534375000002,"end":247.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.65471875000003,"end":248.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.10596875000002,"end":251.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.46846875000003,"end":252.41346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.90284375000002,"end":253.54409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.57784375000003,"end":255.33284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.99096875000004,"end":256.34534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.69971875,"end":265.82909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.47034375000004,"end":268.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.79909375,"end":269.10284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.89596875,"end":272.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.08534375,"end":275.36346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.71784375000004,"end":277.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.72159375,"end":285.03284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.03284375000004,"end":285.06659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","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立法程序走完之後再由行政院再來編列預算然後再來去進行 那目的是150億還比行政院現在已經願意馬上投入執行的250億還要少這是在幹嘛"},{"start":105.298,"end":111.333,"text":"確實啦,但我想以現在行政院用方案的方式來執行,其實效率跟規模都會符合災民的需求。"},{"start":112.145,"end":141.637,"text":"那是不是我現在意思是說所以我懷疑是不是花蓮縣政府跟中央之間的溝通有問題啊會不會花蓮縣政府要報什麼救災的這個計畫來啊結果中央政府不接受還是中央政府跟他邀說你要盤點清楚你哪一些東西要救災要趕快來進行然後他不給你到底是哪一種狀況啊應該沒有他花蓮需要中央協助中央不處理的這個基本上是沒有啦"},{"start":141.837,"end":148.804,"text":"那有沒有花蓮?中央要花蓮盤點受災的狀況,花蓮不報的?我想各部會可能都有不同的狀況,那當然有些資訊確實慢了一些。"},{"start":152.898,"end":175.277,"text":"好那如果是這樣的話就回到我剛剛講的中央政府尤其行政機關沒有這些特別條例的狀況下已經匡列250億馬上要投入救災嘛只要你計畫報來確實就要進行嘛對不對甚至我們也會主動下去就執行執了解所以我現在意思說內政部要主動要了解有有有好那如果是這樣的話這樣子的速度"},{"start":176.331,"end":197.61,"text":"今天報來確定明天就可以做甚至今天就可以做那有需要來提一個這個政災的特別條例特別條例是一個法律案法律案要到本院來審查法院法律案的審查在立法院再快直接抽出進負二讀也要好幾個禮拜啊那然後之後再來根據這個"},{"start":199.231,"end":225.322,"text":"這個特別條例再來由行政院編列預算那再經過本院審查這個預算的審查再快也要兩三個禮拜馬上就可以做的事情有需要經過這樣兩三個月的程序然後來去立一個特別條例然後來編列預算來做嗎這個是第一個我不懂的地方這是在幹嘛我不瞭解所以我想請教你你的看法是這是在幹嘛"},{"start":226.547,"end":227.128,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":249.184,"end":276.592,"text":"慈善機構也是我們的宗教團體叫做慈濟它的大本營就是在花蓮對不對是慈濟在全世界救災全世界有到處去連非洲連中南美洲各地土耳其只要有正在的地方它都派人去支援也弄了非常多的組合屋你知道嗎是包括20多年前的九合一地震九合一大地震它也弄了非常多的組合屋啊台灣組合屋不夠嗎"},{"start":278.749,"end":305.754,"text":"以目前花蓮的狀況甚至有沒有需要組合屋都還要再詳細的評估一下有沒有需要組合屋需要詳細的Promote那就算有需要組合屋台灣組合屋不夠嗎還是政府不願意提供然後還是慈善團體不願意提供100間組合屋需要從中國特別運過來要從中國特別來救濟有這樣的需求嗎應該是沒有"},{"start":307.025,"end":330.451,"text":"那一間組合屋的估價,你估價是多少?其實有不同的推估啦,我們前陣子有請工會幫忙評估,大概算一坪啦,我們大概還是用坪的角度來看,一坪大概在七、八萬塊。一坪七、八萬塊,那組合屋一般是多少坪?20坪、30坪,20坪的左右比較多啦,10幾坪到20坪。100多萬嗎?是。"},{"start":332.967,"end":348.567,"text":"那你講的這個是在當地施工的喔?那如果是從中國那邊一百千運過來海運、空運運過來來這邊組裝那要花多少錢?這個我就不是很清楚運費應該不便宜"},{"start":350.319,"end":374.664,"text":"那就很奇怪啊沒有需要那遠巴巴的那麼多人去中國去乞討一個100間的組合屋我們不見得需要就算有需要台灣也絕對供應得起這是在幹什麼我在搞不懂這是在幹嘛所以最近我跟社會覺得越來越脫節了做了很多事情我越來越搞不懂邏輯上不清楚啊為什麼這樣"},{"start":376.348,"end":392.986,"text":"今天如果說中央政府不願意給你補助經費像當年高雄氣爆那時候中央政府不願意給高雄補助這次地震全國人民都在關心中央政府馬上第一時間也說要立刻就給然後也已經匡列250億在那邊等他"},{"start":395.804,"end":418.094,"text":"這樣子還要弄一個特別條例再來台灣又不缺組合屋台灣隨時也有人願意提供組合屋台灣的善心人士很多啦真的有實際需要這個哪裡是問題一百間組合屋是什麼問題一定有社會上這麼多人的愛心可以提供嘛我也願意如果有這樣的機會我也願意笑眠婆之力啊"},{"start":419.158,"end":446.36,"text":"那在這樣的狀況之下到底在幹嘛我算是看不懂內政部我覺得你要加油跟地方政府多溝通地方政府有什麼需要是不是我們不夠了解我們的關懷度不夠讓地方政府覺得說我們都沒有在關心他嗎我們都會持續盤點我們的住興補貼跟現在交通部提供的旅館的這個部分合起來其實有超過3000戶的協助那因為民政系統是在你們的手裡所以我是說對地方政府要多關懷啦"},{"start":447.441,"end":447.541,"text":"主席"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}