{"error":false,"id":["152047"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":152047,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152047","日期":"2024-05-02","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-26-14","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":14,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-05-02T10:26:02+08:00","結束時間":"2024-05-02T10:37:31+08:00","影片長度":"00:11:29","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6f015fe8e6787db1d2adcc76610edd2ad575e50b9cd8685a55be169921a0a717fd270857351ac70d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖偉翔","委員發言時間":"10:26:02 - 10:37:31","會議時間":"2024-05-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員王育敏等19人擬具「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員蘇清泉等28人擬具「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案」案。\n三、國民黨黨團擬具「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案」案。\n【以上議案，如經復議則不予審查】）","gazette":{"lineno":514,"blocks":[["廖委員偉翔：（10時26分）謝謝主席，有請我們薛部長。"],["主席：好，請薛部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長你好。部長，今天主要是討論健保，但是在討論之前，我有另外一個早上才開的記者會，我想要請教你，部長，前幾年因為新冠疫情期間有許多的民眾因為打了新冠疫苗而死亡，或者是有後遺症的人數也不少，國內外的媒體也已經披露說AZ公司在法庭的文件中承認，該藥廠研發的新冠疫苗接種後，在少數的情況下會導致接種者出現血栓或血小板低下症候群，並且也已經有疫苗的受害者提出集體訴訟。想要請教部長，雖然我國目前已經有預防接種的受害救濟程序，國內因為AZ疫苗而有副作用的民眾可不可以去國外參加集體訴訟，或者是受害者自己組織起來去國外提起跨海的訴訟？"],["薛部長瑞元：如果自行組織起來去參加國外的集體訴訟，我想這個在法律上並沒有說不可以，只是我們需不需要給他做什麼樣的支援，的確跨國訴訟其實成本非常高，而且是曠日費時的。"],["廖委員偉翔：那你們會給他支援嗎？你們會幫他們組織嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：如果有這樣子的集體訴訟的訴求的話，那我們會儘量給他幫忙。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以你們會站在受害者的立場給予他們最大的幫忙，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：如果是有這樣子……"],["廖委員偉翔：對於國內的這種……"],["薛部長瑞元：但是這裡面有一個問題必須特別要去做處理，就是雖然AZ可能它自己也承認有這種風險在，但是……"],["廖委員偉翔：部長沒關係，我沒有要問這麼細，我只想問我們衛福部的立場是什麼？是不是努力從寬地幫助這些疫苗新冠接種的受害者，去幫他們找到救濟的方式還有管道？"],["薛部長瑞元：就是如果有這樣的管道，我們會予以支持，但是是否就能夠達到，這個當然……"],["廖委員偉翔：部長沒關係，我是問你們……"],["薛部長瑞元：在法律面要去做處理。"],["廖委員偉翔：對，部長我是問你們衛福部的態度，對不對？你們應該是要從寬的方式去努力幫他們爭取他們應該有的賠償，對不對？部長，是這樣吧？"],["薛部長瑞元：應該我們會幫忙。"],["廖委員偉翔：沒錯，那你們態度應該是這樣，我可以這樣說。但是部長我告訴你，我4月初的時候發文詢問你們VICP的審議辦法，光在我們國內的受害者的救濟部分，從111年8月以後的會議紀錄跟錄音檔，我問他們有沒有，結果你知道我拿到的回文是什麼嗎？我拿到的回文是說你們出席的委員是逐案討論，所以並未另訂議事規範，然後還有什麼？沒有保留會議紀錄的錄音檔，但是你們說有將歷次的會議結論放在網頁上，我就去參照了一下疾管署的網頁，但是我看了之後是完全無法接受，在疾管署的網頁上放的第219次的會議紀錄，從我們的簡報可以看到，開會時間是2月22號，總審議的件數是162件，有相關是2件，無法確定是8件，無關是152件，但是你知道那天開會是從下午2點開到4點15分，總共135分鐘，審議162個案件，平均審議一個案件大概是50秒，我再往前去查看，每次的開會時間大概都2到3個小時，但是都處理一到兩百個案件。還有一個現象就是去年、前年有許多次會議都是用線上會議，或是線上跟實體的會議並行，但是採用線上會議的專家學者並非全程參加審查會，有些人甚至只參加什麼20分鐘、21分鐘、半個小時，所以很少數是全程參與，我想要請問，你們這樣的審議方法是真的有在審查嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：其實在這個審議小組的大會討論之前都會有預審。"],["廖委員偉翔：我知道，所以你要說前面會先有兩位專家先行鑑定。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["廖委員偉翔：但是部長你知道嗎？我們以前也是很信任專家，但是最近有一個訴訟案，在臺北高等行政法院的第112年訴字第454號判決理由，我們看到這整個過程，從一開始的鑑定到最後的審議結果，根本就是大有問題，從剛剛你們內部開會我們就覺得是黑箱，程序有問題，到鑑定的結果，整個過程都是有問題，兩位鑑定委員的鑑定報告是抄法醫的解剖報告，但是這個解剖報告是要給檢察官作為認定是否自殺或他殺，基本上它是一個與疫苗沒有關聯性的鑑定報告，但鑑定委員直接因為該份的解剖就認定受害者的死因和疫苗無關。後面的程序，我們剛剛講的VICP這審議小組沒有會議的規範、沒有開會錄音檔、沒有出席規定、沒有表決規定，就直接這樣判定無關，如此粗糙，所以才被行政法院打臉。甚至你們疾管署引用的一篇什麼國際期刊，根本只是一個先導的研究，連作者都在內文中寫還沒有完全完成，就被你們拿來亂引用。所以我要請教部長，臺北高等行政法院的這個判決，你們還有臉上訴嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：我們應該會上訴。"],["廖委員偉翔：你們還要上訴啊？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["廖委員偉翔：你們整個程序過程有這樣子的問題還是要上訴？部長，我跟你講我們看了這幾年的新冠疫苗受害者的補償資料，例如去年的審議件數是3,037件，但是認定有關的部分大概96件，有3.13%；無法確定的案件是329件，占10.8%；其他的是85.9%，每一年大概認定的狀況都是這樣，8成5是認定無關。但是現在法院都直接判決了，在這裡，法院都直接判決了，已經說你們呈現在網頁上的公開資料都顯現程序根本有很大的問題，就是黑箱、就是亂審，你們最後決定補償的金額標準就是沒有標準，這樣子的審查過程和結果，我想受害者家屬都沒有辦法接受。你即將卸任了，你不覺得卸任前應該要做一點好事嗎？是不是應該對於這個案件就不要再上訴，甚至第二、就是希望把過去這些有審過但程序根本有問題的，就應該要重審嘛！"],["薛部長瑞元：不可能。"],["廖委員偉翔：而且應該要重新訂定議事的程序和規範。"],["薛部長瑞元：不可能重審，我們現在有幾千案，這不可能重審。"],["廖委員偉翔：但是你過程中很多受害家屬都出現問題……"],["薛部長瑞元：這個是科學的問題，因果關係有沒有是科學的問題。"],["廖委員偉翔：是科學的問題沒有錯，所以剛剛我已經講了，你們最後審查的過程，你們就沒有用跟疫苗相關的……"],["薛部長瑞元：所以我們會上訴。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，如果你還要堅持這樣子的話，我們還是會持續為我們受害者家屬來發聲。","再來，部長，這次在討論健保的問題，我們也跟14位委員共提、26位連署，推動一個健全醫療發展特別條例，跟今天我們的兩位委員提案的概念上，基本上都是希望保障點值的部分，當然預算的來源，特別條例是不一樣。沒關係，我要講的事情是，部長，去年9月14日賴清德說健保點值不足的問題不可以歸咎醫界，因為醫師開設診所並不知道其他人的服務量能增加多少，醫療法也規定醫師沒有拒絕病人的權利，依照法律提供病人服務跟解決病痛，反而收入減少，這個制度有必要調整，這是賴清德說的話。今年北區也已經大幅滑落到0.81，等於是打8折給付，近年的物價上漲，藥物以及人事成本的激增，健保申報、醫療給付卻被打折，這都是賴清德講的話。所以今天國民黨委員要幫賴總統實現政見，提出修法版本，請教部長，執政黨的版本呢？你們一直講各種理由，就是不想做，就是沒有改善這個醫療問題，請問我們執政黨有沒有版本？衛福部的版本呢？"],["薛部長瑞元：衛福部的版本現在正在處理當中，也就是說，我們是對於全民健保法整體的修正，不是只有單一條文，因為單一條文修正的話，後續造成的風險非常高，所以你沒有全盤去討論。"],["廖委員偉翔：你們講全盤討論已經很久了，所以就是執政黨長期沒有作為。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員，這個事情是那麼簡單嗎？"],["廖委員偉翔：當然不是那麼簡單。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，所以不是很久……"],["廖委員偉翔：問題是你們總要給一個方向嘛，大家在問……"],["薛部長瑞元：我上任只有一年多，這中間我們健保修法的小組已經討論一年了。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，我跟你說，我就是反映民間的問題，這些血汗醫護、醫療體系快要崩潰，最終也是全體臺灣人的醫療權益受到影響，難道您不知道現在急診室人滿為患，也有醫護人員不足的問題嗎？有一些病床沒辦法開，我覺得今天看了你們的報告，簡單來講，你們就是找各種理由，你就是找各種理由說不行、不行，政府沒錢，想要請教部長關於賴總統的政見，現在衛福部是什麼態度？"],["薛部長瑞元：這部分要去處理，這個處理必須要有全部的配套，包括錢的來源。"],["廖委員偉翔：今年1月8號，也就是在選前幾天，賴清德總統承諾若當選要召開改革健保給付擴大會議，但選後到現在，我們只有看到賴清德跟他的老師辦的健康台灣論壇，這場論壇在上週六也作出結論，有關健保的部分是第四點，確保健保永續經營，就這樣。請問部長，這就是有關健保的結論嗎？有沒有什麼大家不知道的事情，或大家都知道的事情要怎麼解決？具體方案。"],["薛部長瑞元：這部分應該就是一個綱要，整個政策會有一個綱要，裡面可能有一些細節，包括癌症要減少多少等等，這都是一些細節，我剛剛提到的應該是第七點。健保要確保永續經營的部分，最重要的當然是財源，另外就是一些支付制度的改革，這要一塊、一塊去做處理。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以今天做這個題目就是要告訴你，這個事情你們現在不解決不行了，好不好？謝謝。"],["薛部長瑞元：但不能只有一個條文的修正，這個風險很大。"],["主席：謝謝。","我們現在休息5分鐘。","休息（10時37分）","繼續開會（10時43分）"],["主席：我們繼續開會。","接下來請劉建國委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":242,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-14","speakers":["王育敏","蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林月琴","黃秀芳","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","廖偉翔","劉建國","王正旭","林淑芬","林德福","賴士葆","李彥秀","盧縣一","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","賴惠員","陳瑩","楊曜"],"page_start":167,"meetingDate":["2024-05-02"],"gazette_id":"1133901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員王育敏等18人擬具「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案」案；二、委員蘇清\n泉等27人擬具「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案」案；三、國民黨黨團擬具「全民健康\n保險法第六十二條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1133901_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.29846875,"end":16.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.19284375,"end":18.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.77909375,"end":19.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.43221875,"end":24.938468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.938468750000002,"end":24.95534375},{"speaker":"SP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️ ️ ️"},{"start":401.267,"end":402.709,"text":"netesa 法院判決"},{"start":414.206,"end":432.995,"text":""},{"start":433.373,"end":449.863,"text":"adequ?是不是應該對於這個案件就不要再上訴?甚至是第二就是希望把過去這些有審過的程序根本有問題的就應該要重審嗎?而且應該要重新訂定這個議事的程序和規範。我們現在有幾千案了,這不可能是重審。"},{"start":450.919,"end":451.019,"text":"再來部長。"},{"start":472.841,"end":492.739,"text":""},{"start":492.859,"end":513.808,"text":"沒關係我要講的事情是部長去年9月14日賴清德說健保點值不足的問題不可以歸咎醫界因為醫師開設診所並不知道其他人的服務量能增加多少那醫療法規定醫師沒有拒絕病人的權利依照法律提供病人服務跟解決病痛反而收入減少這個制度有必要調整這是賴清德說的話"},{"start":514.628,"end":543.446,"text":"今年北區也已經大幅滑落到0.81等於是打八折給付那近年的物價上漲藥物以及人事成本的激增那健保申報醫療給付卻被打折這都是賴清德講的話所以今天國民黨委員要幫賴總統實現政見提出修法版本請教部長那執政黨的版本呢你們一直講各種理由就是不想做就是沒有改善這個醫療的問題那請問我們執政黨有沒有版本衛福部的版本呢"},{"start":543.866,"end":566.916,"text":"嗯,國務部的版本現在正在處理當中。也就是說我們是對於全民健保法整體的一個修正。不是只有單一條文。因為單一條文的修正的話,造成的後續的風險是非常高的。所以我們沒有全盤去討論。不是,你們講全盤討論已經很久了喔。所以這個東西就是執政黨的東西沒有做過了喔。這個事情是那麼簡單嗎?"},{"start":567.756,"end":590.798,"text":" bicyn 當然不是那麼簡單,但是問題是你們總是要給一個方向嘛。我上次只有一年多,這中間的話我們這個建法的修法的小組已經好了一年了。 bicyn 部長我跟你說,反映就是民間的問題喔。醫療體系這些血汗醫護,醫療體系也快要崩潰,影響的也是最終也是全體人,台灣人的醫療的權益喔。"},{"start":592.299,"end":609.824,"text":"難道您不知道現在急診室很多人滿為患然後也有醫護人員不足的問題有一些病床沒有辦法開那我覺得今天看了你們的報告簡單來講你們就是找各種理由嘛你就是找各種理由說不行不行不行政府沒錢那想要請教部長賴總統的政見現在衛福部是什麼態度"},{"start":611.487,"end":625.106,"text":"這個部分的話要去處理那這個處理必須要有全部的一個配套包括錢的來源好今年1月8號也就是在選前幾天賴清德總統承諾若當選要召開改革健保給付擴大會議"},{"start":626.127,"end":643.885,"text":"但選後到現在,我們只有看到賴清德跟他的老師辦的什麼健康臺灣論壇。那這場論壇在上週六也做出結論。有關健保的部分是第四點。確保健保永續經營就這樣。那請問部長這是有關健保的結論嗎?"},{"start":645.094,"end":645.614,"text":" unemployed"},{"start":676.675,"end":689.261,"text":" bicyn 今天在做這個題目就是要告訴你這個事情你們現在不解決不行了好不好謝謝但是不能只有一個條文的修正這風險太大好謝謝我們現在休息五分鐘"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}