{"error":false,"id":["152095"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":152095,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152095","日期":"2024-05-02","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-19-10","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":10,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[19],"委員會代碼:str":["經濟委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-05-02T11:50:26+08:00","結束時間":"2024-05-02T11:58:16+08:00","影片長度":"00:07:50","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6f015fe8e6787db165f9ddd52052f690e12ebde737ab3c1955be169921a0a7178cca5bf7c21932e25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"11:50:26 - 11:58:16","會議時間":"2024-05-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：審查：\n一、行政院函請審議「中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員柯志恩等17人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員賴士葆等19人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n五、本院委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「中小企業發展條例增訂第三十六條之四條文草案」案。\n六、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n七、本院國民黨黨團擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n八、本院委員張智倫等19人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十五條、第三十六條之二及第四十條條文修正草案」案。\n九、本院委員王世堅等16人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十五條、第三十六條之二及第四十條條文修正草案」案。\n十、本院委員郭國文等19人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十一、本院委員邱議瑩等29人擬具「中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n（詢答及處理，委員郭國文等人提案如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查）【4月29日、5月1日及2日三天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":689,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（11時50分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請王部長、高副主委以及李次長。"],["主席：請王部長、高副主委。"],["王部長美花：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：3位傑出的女性閣員，我今天的標題是「加薪調降營所稅，中小企業無意願；小店寬減營業稅，創業青年皆受惠」，橫批「杯水車薪」，為什麼這樣說呢？你看一看，現在你們的條文，我還記得部長你的報告裡面寫，目前中小企業有160萬家，從業人員有913萬人，對不對？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：看起來推出這個方案有這麼多人受惠，你認為是不是這樣？"],["王部長美花：其實不是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不是，那我們來看一下你們的受益人數，根據你們的稅式支出評估，這是你們提的，要減稅嘛！你們大概每年最高可以誘發將近2萬人，最少也有2,500人，是8倍之多啊！高低差差這麼多。平均加薪的話，大概一個人一年多1.6萬，大概一個月多一千三，請問什麼樣的行業、什麼樣的規模，公司員工可以加到薪？你認為在你們這個草案之下。"],["王部長美花：我們這個草案確實是針對中小企業，第一個，它有需要繳稅，而且它不適用擴大書審的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：有繳營所稅。"],["王部長美花：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好，說得很好。李次長，剛剛說擴大書審，財政部很明白地說，中小企業當中6成商家無意願，我現在這個數字102萬是指有在申報營所稅的，其中的擴大書審就是年營業規模3,000萬以下，純益率大概平均6%，其中這62萬家就是剛剛部長所說的，擴大書審的大概意願不高，為什麼？27萬家獨資合夥組織，年所得多少？這家公司一年賺二十六萬六，一家公司一年收入扣掉支出只賺二十六萬六，再把這些扣除額扣一扣，它幾乎不太要繳營所稅，次長，是不是這樣？"],["李次長慶華：跟委員報告，其實我們目前……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我用平均來算你們給我的數字是這樣。"],["李次長慶華：我先說明一下，因為我們獨資合夥的組織目前不用繳一毛錢的營利事業所得稅。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是嘛！好，把這個扣掉，還剩下35萬家公司組織，我更嚇一跳，我拿到你們的資料告訴我平均年所得五萬五啊！開一家公司，一年賺5萬5,000元。"],["李次長慶華：報告委員，因為目前擴大書審它是有一定金額……"],["鍾委員佳濱：有很多的殭屍公司，我知道。"],["李次長慶華：對，而且它收入……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我要告訴你，就是因為這62萬家扣掉，其實本來給他們的擴大書審純益率6%，大概已經不用繳什麼稅了，所以事實上我們扣一扣，大概是這樣子。","至於這個方案的適用對象，其實中小企業的平均人數大概不到6個人，5.79人，這62萬家沒有什麼意願的中小企業扣一扣，有360萬的員工基本上不會受你們的方案所涵蓋，那我們目前有910萬個從業人員，王部長，是不是這樣子？所以有4成的就業人口是這個方案照顧不到的，是不是這樣子？部長，我這樣算沒錯嘛？數學還可以啦？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以經濟部已經盡力了，真的盡力了，因為他們照顧的是比較大的公司。接下來請次長跟國發會副主委，我先問次長。"],["李次長慶華：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長謝謝，你先休息，因為你盡力了，盡全力了。接下來是財政部的事，怎麼說呢？我那時候不斷在跟您提出，我們目前的微型企業，就是小店家月營業額未達20萬的，有將近52萬家，免開統一發票，但是我主張他們也全部都免稅，你知道我很熟悉這個議題。"],["李次長慶華：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：現在月營業額8萬以上的還是要課1%的營業稅，這個大概占了30萬家。好，如果我們把小店家20萬到50萬營業規模的，有高達66萬3,000家，我為什麼主張稅率1%呢？你看一看，你們2022年的營業稅總額是5,444億，小規模營業人就是最前面那52萬家只占了34.7億，占我們營業稅0.64%的貢獻度。比微型企業再大一點的小店家，員工人數是2到5人，如果你把它的營業稅寬減為1%的話，大概一年可以省下9.6萬到24萬，它可以讓員工，其實不是員工啦！這種小店家的老闆是「頭家兼摃鐘」，差不多啦！","國發會副主委，您看一下，這是目前GDP分配面的統計，其中住宿及餐飲業的受僱人數薪酬占比是最高的，也就是說它的營業額大部分是支付在員工的薪水上、人事成本上，但是它的薪資是最低的，其實我們講青年低薪資是大概低在哪裡？低在這些餐飲業，因為剛出來嘛！還沒有什麼技術，很多都是餐飲業，甚至青年創業、加盟店大概都是餐飲業，是不是這樣子？結果這些人是受僱薪資最低的，他們根本沒有進入到你們減稅加薪的範圍，它的員工報酬占比最高，因為它賺來的錢大部分都付在人事上，那營業盈餘的占比也是最低，是裡面最不會賺錢的公司，賺錢賺最少的公司，同不同意？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：我完全同意委員的說法。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那我們針對這些人，他們才是我們真正要照顧的人，不是經濟部在管的台積電那些公司的受僱員工啊！次長，最後這是你的問題了，你的需求了，行動支付的優惠是不是明年到期？"],["李次長慶華：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：當時是在哪一位行政院長任內推動的？2018年行政院長是賴清德，那是為了鼓勵年輕人，小規模營業人導入行動支付，年輕人很歡迎，他的實體商店因為這樣的關係，可以得到1%營業稅的優惠，對不對？"],["李次長慶華：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：青年都很歡迎很肯定，副主委，這個政策我不知道當時是誰跟賴清德院長建議的，財政部也被迫接受了，雖然他們不是很情願，但是實際的優惠讓青年受益很多，可是明年就要到期，次長，可不可以也把它展延擴大適用，給我剛剛說的，20萬以上開統一發票，未達50萬月營業額的特定項目的行業別，尤其是餐飲業，也給它1%的優惠？"],["李次長慶華：委員，雖然我們這個制度有推動，剛才委員也說很受年輕人的歡迎，但是依照我們實際統計的結果，很多的小店家其實使用以後，它並沒有真正……"],["鍾委員佳濱：次長，我沒想到你這麼認真，說了實話。"],["李次長慶華：對，它並沒有真正……"],["鍾委員佳濱：就是你們的效果其實沒有肥到豬，肥到狗去了。"],["李次長慶華：就是那個使用的比例很低啦！"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我才說要調整，我只是不好意思說你們當時候用意很好，但是方向姿勢錯誤，沒有肥到豬，肥到狗去了。我希望你們把目標調整一下，年輕人不是只有受薪低薪而已，年輕人創業占很大的部分，這些小老闆、兩夫妻創業、加盟店，如果能夠把這個方式轉移到這些小規模營業人，會有很大的幫助，願不願意回去再度評估一下？"],["李次長慶華：委員的建議我們會再評估。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝，謝謝主席。"],["主席：請賴士葆委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":510,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-10","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","謝衣鳯","賴士葆","邱議瑩","張智倫","郭國文","陳亭妃","林岱樺","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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26萬元的公司今年只支出扣掉收入扣掉支出只佔26萬6再把這些扣除而扣一扣他幾乎銀索稅不太用繳是不是這樣?次長?呃柯委員報告其實我們目前我是用平均來算你們給我的數字是這樣我先說明一下因為我們獨資合夥的組織目前他就不用繳一毛錢的銀索稅是嗎?好那把這個扣掉了對還剩下35萬元的公司組織我更嚇一跳我拿到你們的資料告訴我平均年所得5萬5啊"},{"start":156.204,"end":158.746,"text":"adequate 公司進一趟五萬五千塊。"},{"start":180.071,"end":203.06,"text":"其實呢,中小企業的平均人數大概不到6個人,5.79。這62萬家沒有什麼意願的中小企業扣一扣,有360萬的員工啊,他基本上呢,他不會受你們的方案所涵蓋啊。那我們目前多少?910萬個從業人員,王部長是不是這樣子?所以有4成的人,他在就業的人口是這個方案照顧到的,是不是這樣子?"},{"start":203.66,"end":204.42,"text":"財政部的事了,怎麼說呢?"},{"start":226.409,"end":246.621,"text":"現在我那時候不斷在跟您提出我們目前的微型企業就是月營業額小店家未達20萬的有將近52萬家免開統一發票但是呢我主張他們也全部都免稅這個你知道我很熟悉這個議題現在是要8萬以上的月營業額到1萬以上的還要課1%的營業稅"},{"start":248.683,"end":270.847,"text":"adequa 呢大概佔了大概三十萬家好那如果我們把小店家二十萬到五十萬營業規模的有高達六十六萬三千家那我為什麼主張稅率一趴呢你看一看齁你們二零二年的營業稅的總額是五千四百四十四億小規模營業人就最前面那五十二萬家呢只佔了三十四點七億佔我們營業稅營業稅的零點六十的貢獻度好那這個"},{"start":274.881,"end":285.612,"text":"議員柯志恩等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案案。」案。議員柯志恩等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案案。案。議員柯志恩等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案案。案。"},{"start":297.484,"end":323.518,"text":"來你看一下齁目前這是我們GDP的分部面的統計其中住宿跟餐飲業他的受僱人數他的薪酬的占比是最高的也就是說他們的營業額大部分是支付在員工的薪水上人事成本上但是呢他的薪資是最低的其實我們講青年低薪是在低在哪裡低在這些餐飲業因為剛出來嘛還有什麼技術很多都是餐飲業甚至青年創業"},{"start":324.957,"end":347.022,"text":""},{"start":347.122,"end":364.802,"text":"我完全同意那個問題。好,那我針對這些人,他們才是我們真的要照顧的人,不是經濟部所管的那些台積的那些公司的受僱員工啊。好,來次長,最後是你的問題了,你的需求了。有沒有這個行動支付的優惠明年到期?是。當時這個是為什麼?誰?誰的?哪一位行政院黨在那裡推動的?"},{"start":367.062,"end":385.272,"text":"2018年,行政院長是賴清德。但是為了鼓勵年輕人、小規模營業人導入行動之戶,年輕人很歡迎。他這樣子的話,他的實體商店,他因為這樣的關係可以得到一趴營業稅的優惠,對不對?是。青年都很歡迎、很肯定。副主委。"},{"start":386.629,"end":414.276,"text":"這個政策我覺得不知道當時誰跟賴新德院長建議的財政部也被迫接受了雖然他們不是很情願但是實際的優惠青年受益很多但是明年就到期來接下來次長可不可以我們也把這樣的一個展演擴大試用給我剛剛說的20萬以上開統一發票未達50萬月營業額的特定項目的行業別尤其是餐飲業也給他一趴的一個這樣的優惠"},{"start":416.45,"end":431.209,"text":"委員雖然我們這個制度有推動啦但是剛才委員講說承受年輕人的歡迎但是依照我們實際上就是去統計的結果就是很多的小店家他其實使用了以後他他並沒有真正我沒想到你這麼認真說了實話對"},{"start":432.69,"end":456.312,"text":"就是你們的效果其實呢,就是那個使用的比例很低啦,對。所以我才說,要調整,我只是不好意思說,你們當時用意很好,但是方向姿勢錯誤。所以我希望你們把目標調整一下。年輕人不是只有壽星、地星而已,年輕人創業的占很大的部分。這些小老闆,兩夫妻創業、加盟店,"},{"start":456.992,"end":466.473,"text":"他們如果能夠把這個方式轉移到對這些小公民業的,會有很大幫助。願不願意回去再度評估一下?我一直建議我們會再評估。好,謝謝。謝謝主席。"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}