{"error":false,"id":["152118"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":152118,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152118","日期":"2024-05-02","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-19-10","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":10,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[19],"委員會代碼:str":["經濟委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-05-02T12:33:58+08:00","結束時間":"2024-05-02T12:45:21+08:00","影片長度":"00:11:23","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6f015fe8e6787db14757cee376486ef8e12ebde737ab3c1955be169921a0a717e0df1a73c0e558f55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"12:33:58 - 12:45:21","會議時間":"2024-05-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：審查：\n一、行政院函請審議「中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員柯志恩等17人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員賴士葆等19人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n五、本院委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「中小企業發展條例增訂第三十六條之四條文草案」案。\n六、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n七、本院國民黨黨團擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n八、本院委員張智倫等19人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十五條、第三十六條之二及第四十條條文修正草案」案。\n九、本院委員王世堅等16人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十五條、第三十六條之二及第四十條條文修正草案」案。\n十、本院委員郭國文等19人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十一、本院委員邱議瑩等29人擬具「中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n（詢答及處理，委員郭國文等人提案如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查）【4月29日、5月1日及2日三天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":937,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（12時34分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請部長。"],["主席：我們再請王部長。"],["王部長美花：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：部長好。針對力暘集團在臺南七股小二甲的違法弊案，今天早上我召開了記者會，這個記者會就刑事偵查已經起訴，接下來審判的部分，當然各該被告在審判程序當中要去面對，但不是起訴完之後進入審判程序就沒有經濟部的事了，因為整起事件駭人聽聞、十分誇張，有兩件與經濟部權責有關係的事情，想要請教部長。關於古盛煇他們非法取得臺南七股電籌許可的這件事情，當初他們是透過小二甲禁令的但書，也就是在102年7月31日以前核定的109年6.5GW達標計畫，沒想到，法規明確地寫要在109年7月31日以前核定，他們搞到2021年時開了一個會議來幫他開後門。這個違法取得的電籌許可，經濟部要不要撤銷，請教部長？"],["王部長美花：第一個，對於相關的案件有沒有要撤銷，我們都會看有沒有相關的違法情形。"],["黃委員國昌：還要看多久？還要看多久？"],["王部長美花：因為……"],["黃委員國昌：這是你們的權責啊！"],["王部長美花：因為目前……"],["黃委員國昌：這個不就是你們的權責嗎？"],["王部長美花：第一個，我們還沒看到起訴書的全文，裡面有沒有什麼樣的……"],["黃委員國昌：第一個先等一下，到現在都已經多久了？"],["王部長美花：對，還沒有收到起訴書、還沒有收到。"],["黃委員國昌：檢察官會寄起訴書給你們嗎？檢察官會寄起訴書給你們嗎？"],["王部長美花：我們有向當事人要起訴書。"],["黃委員國昌：案件發生到現在，連這麼基本的事情都還沒有開始，曾文生答應我要啟動行政調查，啟動了嗎？"],["王部長美花：我們會啟動行政調查。"],["黃委員國昌：什麼時候要啟動？等到收到起訴書？如果2個月沒拿到起訴書就不會啟動，是這樣嗎？"],["王部長美花：我們當然要看起訴書的內容啊！"],["黃委員國昌：對，所以我說你什麼時候要啟動行政調查嘛！什麼時候要啟動行政調查？"],["王部長美花：我們收到起訴書，看到內容之後一定會。"],["黃委員國昌：所以檢察官會寄起訴書給你嗎？"],["王部長美花：我們有向當事人要起訴書。"],["黃委員國昌：如果站在當事人的立場，我永遠不給你起訴書啊！你就永遠都沒辦法啟動行政調查啊！有這種態度的嗎？"],["王部長美花：我們本來就要看起訴書啊！委員，不用看起訴書的內容嗎？還有起訴書所附的資料。"],["黃委員國昌：我這樣講好了，以目前所有公開的資訊，經濟部也好、能源署也好，你們手上有的事證、有的基礎資料，你們可以自己判斷的事情太多了，為什麼我敢這樣講？當初是怎麼開這個後門的？沒有基礎資料，你們敢開後門嗎？"],["王部長美花：委員不能這樣講，因為農委會……"],["黃委員國昌：為什麼不能夠這樣講？"],["王部長美花：你不能說我們是開後門，農委會在很短的時間做了改變，這個改變讓很多在處理中的案件要如何處理，所以包括跨部會去討論。"],["黃委員國昌：我就問一個最基本的問題就好了啦！2020年6.5GW達標計畫，法規上寫的是在要7月31日以前核定納入，你們在2021年9月15日開了一個會議，大家都串好了，在那個時候開後門。我現在依法論法，2021年9月15日是憑什麼開這個後門？你不用看起訴書啊！你按照你們當初做行政處分的基礎，你們當初是依照什麼作為依據，開了這個後門放古盛煇過關，這個與檢察官的起訴沒有關係喔！"],["王部長美花：報告委員，對於你講的開後門，我們是不能接受啦！"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，你用事實說服我嘛！"],["王部長美花：對，包括農委會都有一起來開會，我們這個是通案……"],["黃委員國昌：有符合法規嗎？"],["王部長美花：我們這個是通案在處理。"],["黃委員國昌：是，有符合法規嗎？"],["王部長美花：這本來就是一個農委會……"],["黃委員國昌：有符合法規嗎？"],["王部長美花：農委會本來就是突然改變它的政策，譬如符合109年6.5GW也不是法規，這個都是我們做能源政策不斷往前推動的情形。"],["黃委員國昌：等一下，推動小二甲上面的但書，所以部長的態度是這個規定是很彈性的，不用遵守也沒有關係，你的意思是這樣嗎？"],["王部長美花：也不是、也不是，我沒有這樣講。"],["黃委員國昌：我們看一下農業主管機關同意農地變更使用審查作業要點，這不是法規是什麼？這不是法規是什麼？"],["王部長美花：農變要點是相關的行政命令，沒有錯，這個我們同意。"],["黃委員國昌：行政命令不是法規嗎？"],["王部長美花：但是農委會原本的規定到後來沒有足夠的緩衝期，於是就改了規定，造成大家有很多的意見，事實上，這也是後來很多部會一起去討論的事情。"],["黃委員國昌：要不然你就改法規，有法規就要遵守，臺灣是不是法治國家？"],["王部長美花：但是……"],["黃委員國昌：按照你這樣的說法，法規定出來，大家手忙腳亂，所以可以不遵守法規，這是經濟部部長的態度嗎？"],["王部長美花：但是農委會這樣的規定，造成非常多的案件已經審到……"],["黃委員國昌：那就改法規啊！有改法規嗎？"],["王部長美花：沒有改法規，事實上……"],["黃委員國昌：既然沒有改法規，公務員要不要守法？"],["王部長美花：你用信賴原則，本來就要處理這種中間過渡期的案子，這個過渡期應該如何適用，也是大家非常透明一起開會做的決議。"],["黃委員國昌：大家非常透明去做的決定、大家非常透明去做的決定？"],["王部長美花：沒錯啊！我們都有做會議紀錄，難道這樣不透明嗎？"],["黃委員國昌：會議記錄透明？我秀給你看什麼叫透明？我去年開始追蹤這個案子，台灣民眾黨陳琬惠委員也在追蹤這個案子，那時候我針對力暘集團為什麼有辦法在2022年開始繞過小二甲的禁令，實在是百思不得其解，我查完了法規，找了三種例外的狀況，除非有一種我沒掌握到的，就是有納入6.5GW，所以我請陳委員向經濟部索資，把6.5GW納入的全部都要納進去嘛！部長說有公開透明嘛！有哪些被納進去，全國人民不能知道嗎？所以就向你們索資了！索資回來就是長得這個樣子，裡面有力暘集團的五天案場嗎？沒有、沒有，這個不是我捏造出來的喔！剛剛部長談到公開透明，我們就來談公開透明，去年就向你們要了，有哪些計畫納入6.5GW，給出來的資料殘破不堪，裡面有五天案場嗎？這是部長所說的公開透明嗎？"],["王部長美花：我們經濟部開的會議是針對通案來解決通案的問題，個案有沒有不恰當的偽造文書，我們當然也要譴責，但是不能說我們對通案的處理是違法的。"],["黃委員國昌：我問A你答B的技巧非常厲害。"],["王部長美花：我沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：剛剛你不是說公開透明嗎？我現在就跟你談公開透明啊！你們給委員的清單裡為什麼沒有五天案場？不是被你們合法地納入了嗎？既然合法地納入，為什麼上面沒有？在遮掩什麼？"],["王部長美花：我們沒有在遮掩。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有在遮掩，上面就沒有啊！我有說錯嗎？"],["李副署長君禮：報告，這個是當時在問的時候有提出來的申請案件。"],["黃委員國昌：停一下。"],["李副署長君禮：是。"],["黃委員國昌：力暘什麼時候申請的？"],["李副署長君禮：力暘是……"],["黃委員國昌：你再騙啊！力暘什麼時候申請的？"],["李副署長君禮：這個是當時已經併網的資料，我們都寫在這裡，我們那邊有說這是併網的資料……"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！我就說嘛！你們到底在遮掩什麼嘛！我們要知道的是什麼？所有納入6.5GW的計畫有什麼？你們就提一個不完整的清單出來！現在主席站起來了，我只有兩個要求，今天部長不給答案，沒有關係！你就慢慢地等起訴書啊！如果我是當事人，我會給你起訴書才怪！我知道你要收到起訴書，法務部也不會給你起訴書，你要向當事人要，我是當事人就會把起訴書放在抽屜裡，我半年不給你，你就半年無法啟動行政調查，行政調查要多久，部長？"],["王部長美花：我們當然要看到起訴書的資料、內容、檢察官蒐集的資料，我們再來看……"],["黃委員國昌：所以需要多少的時間取得起訴書？你需要多少的時間取得起訴書？"],["王部長美花：我現在都還不知道檢察官的起訴書是否已經送出來了，委員，拿到檢察官的起訴書不應該是我們很好的一個起步嗎？"],["黃委員國昌：是啊！"],["王部長美花：難道我們不用看到起訴書嗎？"],["黃委員國昌：是啊！"],["王部長美花：那就對啦！所以我們當然是要看到起訴書。"],["黃委員國昌：本來你們自己行政調查的資料都在你們的檔案裡，目前所公開的資訊，包括法務部給所有新聞記者的，它只有把名字遮掉，把郭再欽改成郭○○，但是事實行為的態樣與目前公開連我都拿到的東西已經鉅細靡遺了。我只有兩個要求，第一個，違法的電籌許可撤銷；第二個，該送監察院彈劾的公務員，請送監察院彈劾，不要包庇，今天我的訴求只有這兩個。"],["王部長美花：我們會行政調查、我們會行政調查。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，我們就靜靜等嘛！看經濟部的行政調查什麼時候要出來嘛！還是審判繼續拖，小古很夠力，臺南七股的案場是違法取得的，繼續幹、繼續賺都沒有關係，謝謝。"],["主席：請行政部門針對委員的提問向委員說明清楚，謝謝。","請王美惠委員、王美惠、王美惠委員不在現場。","登記發言的委員除不在場者外，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答結束。另有委員陳超明及牛煦庭所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報。書面質詢與委員質詢未及答復的部分，請相關單位於一週內以書面答復，並副知本委員會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":510,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-10","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","謝衣鳯","賴士葆","邱議瑩","張智倫","郭國文","陳亭妃","林岱樺","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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開這個後門"},{"start":267.981,"end":276.071,"text":"你不用看起訴書啊,你按照你們當初做行政處分的基礎,你們當初是依照什麼樣當作依據,開了這個後門,放谷聖輝過關。"},{"start":281.087,"end":290.249,"text":"adequate檢察官的起訴沒有關係喔!跟委員報告齁你用講開我們是不能接受啦因為沒有關係啊你用事實說服我嘛對這個開這個會齁包括農委會都有一起來開會那我們這個是通案我們這個是通案在處理是有符合法規嗎"},{"start":301.032,"end":326.663,"text":"這個本來就是一個農委會本來就是突然的改變他的一個政策那所以我們去做改他不是比如說符合109人6.5億這個也不是法規那這個都是我們在做這個推動能源政策裡面不斷的在往前推進的一個情形推動小二甲後面上面的這個單書所以以部長的態度來講是說"},{"start":329.104,"end":340.614,"text":"這個規定是很彈性的,不用遵守也沒有關係,你的意思是這樣嗎?來看一下,農業主管機關同意農曆變更使用審查作業要點,這不是法規是什麼?這不是法規是什麼?"},{"start":344.749,"end":370.052,"text":"農變要點是相關的行政命令沒有錯。行政命令不是法規嗎?但是農委會原來的規定後來沒有足夠的緩衝期,然後就改了規定,那造成一些大家有很多的意見。所以這個事實上也是後來很多的部會大家一起去討論的事情。要不然你就改法規,有法規就要遵守。"},{"start":371.598,"end":372.499,"text":"但是...那就改法規啊!"},{"start":389.398,"end":392.98,"text":"有改法規嗎?所以沒有改法規公務員要不要守法?大家非常透明去做的決定。"},{"start":409.489,"end":410.95,"text":"我們都有做會議記錄,難道這樣不透明嗎?我去年開始在追蹤這個案子"},{"start":424.005,"end":438.927,"text":"台灣民眾黨陳婉蕙委員也在追蹤這個案子我那時候針對立洋集團為什麼有辦法在2022年開始繞過去小二甲的禁令我是百思不得其解"},{"start":440.031,"end":462.416,"text":"我查完了法規找了三種例外的狀況除非有一種我沒掌握到的就是有納入6.5GW所以我請陳委員跟經濟部所知把6.5GW納入的全部都要納進去嘛部長說有公開透明嘛有哪些被納進去全國人民不能知道嗎"},{"start":463.636,"end":488.794,"text":"所以就跟你們索資了。索資回來長了這個樣子。長了這個樣子,裡面有立揚集團的五天案場嗎?沒有。沒有。這不是我捏造出來的喔。剛部長談到公開透明,我們就來談公開透明。去年就跟你們要了。有哪些計畫納入這6.5GW,給出來的資料殘破不堪,裡面有五天案場嗎?"},{"start":489.995,"end":491.756,"text":"這是部長所說的公開透明嗎?我問A你答B的技巧非常厲害"},{"start":511.65,"end":531.344,"text":"我沒有...剛剛你不是說公開透明啊?啊我現在就跟你談公開透明啊?你們給委員的清單裡面為什麼沒有五天案場?不是被你們合法的納入了嗎?既然合法的納入為什麼上面沒有?在遮掩什麼?我們沒有在遮掩我...這個...沒有在遮掩上面就沒有啊?我有說錯嗎?報告這個是當時在問的時候當時有提出來的申請案件...等一下!立揚什麼時候申請的?"},{"start":541.582,"end":569.118,"text":"你再騙啊!利昂什麼時候申請的?這個是當時已經併網的資料,那我們都寫在這裡。那我們那個,那邊有說這是併網的資料。對嘛!所以我就說嘛!你們到底在遮掩什麼嘛!我們要知道的是什麼?所有納入6.5GW的計畫有什麼?你們就提一個不完整的清單出來。現在主席站起來了啦!現在主席站起來。我只有兩個要求。"},{"start":569.838,"end":590.407,"text":"部長今天不給答案沒有關係你就慢慢的等起訴書啊我如果是當事人我會給你起訴書才怪啊我知道你要收到起訴書法務部也不會給你起訴書你要跟當事人要我是當事人我就把起訴書放在抽屜裡我半年不給你你半年沒有辦法啟動行政調查行政調查要多久部長"},{"start":592.267,"end":620.809,"text":"我們當然要看到起訴書的資料內容檢察官收集的資料我們再來看所以你需要多少的時間取得起訴書我現在都還不知道檢察官的起訴書送出來沒有我想委員拿到檢察官的起訴書這不是應該我們很好的一個起步嗎當然到我們不用看到起訴書嗎那就對啦那所以我們當然是要看到起訴書你本來自己行政調查資料都在你們檔案裡"},{"start":622.113,"end":640.515,"text":"目前所公開的資訊,包括法務部給所有新聞記者,他只有把名字遮掉。他只有把名字遮掉,把郭再欽改成郭圈圈。但是事實行為的太陽,以目前公開連我都拿到的東西,已經鉅細靡遺了。"},{"start":642.506,"end":665.601,"text":"我只有兩個要求。第一個違法的電酬許可撤銷。第二個該送監察院彈劾的公務員請送監察院彈劾不要包屁。我今天的訴求只有這兩個。我們會行政調查。我們會行政調查。沒有關係我們就靜靜等嘛。看經濟部的行政調查什麼時候要出來嘛。還是審判繼續拖小股很夠力。"},{"start":667.517,"end":682.159,"text":""}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}