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14:18:09","會議時間":"2024-05-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政、內政、經濟、教育及文化、交通、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查或處理「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第4期特別預算(112至113年度)」及「中央政府疫後強化經濟與社會韌性及全民共享經濟成果特別預算」決議：\n一、有關教育部主管預算凍結書面報告案4案。\n二、有關經濟部主管預算凍結書面報告案9案。\n三、有關交通部主管預算凍結書面報告案14案。\n四、有關行政院農業委員會主管預算凍結書面報告案3案。\n五、有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結書面報告案11案。\n六、有關文化部主管預算凍結書面報告案1案。\n七、有關數位發展部主管預算凍結書面報告案7案。\n八、有關原住民族委員會預算凍結書面報告案1案。\n九、有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案3案。\n十、有關行政院環境保護署預算凍結書面報告案1案。\n十一、有關國家科學及技術委員會主管預算凍結書面報告案2案。）","gazette":{"lineno":1380,"blocks":[["羅委員明才：（14時10分）主席、各位委員、出列席官員，大家好。主席，可否請主計總處？"],["主席：主計總處的副座，陳副主計長"],["羅委員明才：陳慧娟陳副主計長。請數發部也一起備詢。"],["主席：請數發部李次長。"],["陳副主計長慧娟：委員好。"],["羅委員明才：陳副主計長你好。前瞻這幾年花了不少錢，前前後後前瞻預算總共是多少？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：前瞻總額是8,400億。"],["羅委員明才：對，花了那麼多錢，你們看起來哪一個部會是把錢用在刀口上？有沒有評比？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：我們看到每個部會都非常的努力。"],["羅委員明才：最努力、成果最好的是誰？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：我覺得大家都非常努力。"],["羅委員明才：那最不努力的、執行率最低的是誰？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：應該要看計畫的性質，有一些執行率可能是因為一些流標等等不同的因素，跟是不是努力不必然有關係。"],["羅委員明才：這8,400億其實是很大的一筆錢，一般各單位都拼命要錢，可是有沒有人在做追蹤考核呢？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：基本上，國發會會針對他計畫的進度還有有關工程的部分，公共工程委員會對於比較重大的計畫也都會列管。"],["羅委員明才：就好像大鍋飯，反正錢來了，大家拼命花，那到底有沒有效果也不清楚，比如說數發部，我們接著請數發部，也請主計總處聽一下，數發部這一、兩年來你們總共花了多少錢？預算。"],["李次長懷仁：委員是指？我們年度的公務預算去年是六十幾億，今年是73億。"],["羅委員明才：做得好不好？"],["李次長懷仁：做得好不好大家公評，我們有很努力、我們有在盡力。"],["羅委員明才：有在進步，你覺得做得好嗎？"],["李次長懷仁：做得好不好大家公評，我們有在盡力。"],["羅委員明才：那做得好就應該繼續做啊！你們現在的部長是誰？"],["李次長懷仁：我們現在部長是唐鳳。"],["羅委員明才：他有沒有續任？"],["李次長懷仁：以行政院公布的人事為主。"],["羅委員明才：怎麼樣？行政院公布怎樣？"],["李次長懷仁：以行政院公布的人事為主，我不方便講。"],["羅委員明才：他被換掉了，是不是？"],["李次長懷仁：是。"],["羅委員明才：今天為什麼沒來？"],["李次長懷仁：今天就是由我來。"],["羅委員明才：我知道，我看到你當然知道是你來啊！做得好就應該讓他繼續做啊！是不是因為他做不好所以讓他下臺？"],["李次長懷仁：每一屆政府的人事我不便評論。"],["羅委員明才：你們每年都花那麼多錢，結果現在人民所詬病的還是打詐，我如果再繼續問你，你一定說打詐跟你沒關係，詐騙那麼多，跟你有沒有關係？"],["李次長懷仁：跟每個部會都有關係。"],["羅委員明才：好，跟每個部會有關係，你是不是主要的關係？"],["李次長懷仁：我們擔任協助的角色。"],["羅委員明才：你是協助？那主要是誰？"],["李次長懷仁：打詐綱領裡面有四個主責部會，我們是協助的角色。"],["羅委員明才：你們是協助？那主要是誰？"],["李次長懷仁：打詐綱領上面寫的是法務部、內政部……"],["羅委員明才：法務部……還有內政部是不是？還有呢？"],["李次長懷仁：通傳會跟金管會。"],["羅委員明才：什麼會？"],["李次長懷仁：通傳會跟金管會。"],["羅委員明才：金管會？所以問題都是它，不是你就對了？"],["李次長懷仁：我們沒有這樣說過。"],["羅委員明才：你說你協辦啊！大家現在發現打詐的流程當中，不是收簡訊，不然就是社群媒體LINE或是這些相關的，事實上，你們在第一線該做的都可以直接有作為，或者你們發現比較異常的部分，你們應該可以控管，為什麼該管而不管？然後每年都花那麼多錢？好啦！協辦就下去好了，因為協辦最後你們也辦不了什麼事，然後錢就是繼續這樣花。請經濟部。"],["主席：請林次。"],["羅委員明才：林次長，大概一般我們講就是油電水氣民生相關，現在立法院已經決議說電價要凍漲，這是全民的期盼，立法院已經通過了，你們就應該遵照辦理。"],["林次長全能：這個部分我們現在都是依法在辦理當中。"],["羅委員明才：依哪一個法？"],["林次長全能：依電業法的規定來做相關的審議……"],["羅委員明才：可是立法院又有新的決議，就是你們不能漲電價，面對這樣的情況，你是會漲還是不要漲？"],["林次長全能：我跟委員報告，我是公務人員，所以我們現在就是按照法律規定，4月1號審查通過，依4月1號審查通過的執行方案在進行中。"],["羅委員明才：4月1號？那昨天是幾號？"],["林次長全能：昨天是5月1號。"],["羅委員明才：禮拜二就是前天了，那時候立法院已經決議通過了。"],["林次長全能：所以我剛剛講到我們已經按照4月1號相關規定的方式來做處理。"],["羅委員明才：立法院通過了，你要不要照辦？"],["林次長全能：我想這個部分可能要更嚴謹地去思考那個規範是如何。"],["羅委員明才：你說你是公務人員，從職權行使法裡面看，立法院的決議你們要遵從，如果你們沒有遵照立法院的決議下去做，那誰來決定？我們是準備要提告那個人喔！比如現在已經說要凍漲，結果有一個人叫做林全能，他在公文上批說要漲，那以後有出問題我就告你喔！"],["林次長全能：委員，我想我們是依法行事，我沒有特別……"],["羅委員明才：你怕不怕被告嘛？"],["林次長全能：我們依法行事，我們就不用太擔心。"],["羅委員明才：我們就分開，是誰決定就找誰，抽絲剝繭，全民都是支持凍漲的，立法委員就是代表民眾，在立法院已經決議通過的案子，你不但要尊重，你還必須要遵照辦理。"],["林次長全能：我剛剛已經說得很清楚，我們會依法來做相關的工作。"],["羅委員明才：你要小心啊！因為我認識你，我是站在你的角度來幫你。"],["林次長全能：謝謝委員你提醒我。"],["羅委員明才：政府是鐵打的衙門、流水的官，你不要因為這個事你就流掉了，以後也不會有人記得你，只有當你接到傳票的時候你要去，因為有人要告你，因為你沒有遵照立法院的決議在辦理，理解嗎？"],["林次長全能：謝謝委員提醒。"],["羅委員明才：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝羅召委的質詢。緊接著我們請王世堅委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":122,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-20,15,19,22,23,26-1","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","陳亭妃","吳秉叡","賴士葆","萬美玲","洪孟楷","吳沛憶","葛如鈞","王鴻薇","李彥秀","蘇巧慧","林宜瑾","陳菁徽","陳培瑜","陳昭姿","陳玉珍","張宏陸","游顥","陳秀寳","鄭正鈐","羅廷瑋","徐富癸","黃秀芳","郭昱晴","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李昆澤","李坤城","陳素月","楊瓊瓔","羅明才","王世堅","黃健豪","王美惠","范雲","張雅琳","林月琴","王正旭","賴瑞隆","吳春城","徐欣瑩","鍾佳濱","邱志偉","顏寬恒","謝衣鳯","葉元之","蘇清泉","盧縣一","陳超明","李柏毅","林岱樺","劉建國","邱議瑩","張嘉郡","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","王育敏","牛煦庭","吳琪銘","蔡易餘","賴惠員"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-02"],"gazette_id":"1133901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政、內政、經濟、教育及文化、交通、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查或處理「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第 4期特別預算(112至113年度)」及「中央政府疫後強\n化經濟與社會韌性及全民共享經濟成果特別預算」決議：一、有關教育部主管預算凍結書面報告\n案4案；二、有關經濟部主管預算凍結書面報告案9案；三、有關交通部主管預算凍結書面報告案\n14案；四、有關行政院農業委員會主管預算凍結書面報告案 3案；五、有關衛生福利部主管預算\n凍結書面報告案11案；六、有關文化部主管預算凍結書面報告案1案；七、有關數位發展部主管\n預算凍結書面報告案7案；八、有關原住民族委員會預算凍結書面報告案1案；九、有關內政部主\n管預算凍結書面報告案3案；十、有關行政院環境保護署預算凍結書面報告案1案；十一、有關國\n家科學及技術委員會主管預算凍結書面報告案2案","agenda_id":"1133901_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.4697187500000001,"end":3.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.30471875,"end":13.328468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.99034375,"end":17.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.00284375,"end":19.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.875968750000002,"end":23.976593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.58409375,"end":27.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.12784375,"end":31.047218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":31.789718750000002,"end":37.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":37.79721875,"end":42.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":42.85971875,"end":43.619093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.69909375,"end":47.955968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":48.27659375,"end":50.470343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.900343750000005,"end":55.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":55.66784375,"end":59.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.42659375,"end":73.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":73.82534375,"end":78.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":78.97221875000001,"end":82.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":83.35971875,"end":83.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":84.16971875,"end":85.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":87.12284375,"end":87.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":88.48971875000001,"end":89.24909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.51471875,"end":102.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":104.04846875000001,"end":107.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.96346875,"end":111.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":111.50721875,"end":112.75596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":113.16096875000001,"end":119.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.36659375,"end":120.92346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":121.26096875,"end":123.42096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.78784375000001,"end":125.81721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.20971875000001,"end":125.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.42471875000001,"end":131.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":131.68971875,"end":132.58409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.34346875,"end":135.97596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":136.51596875,"end":138.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":139.35096875000002,"end":143.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":144.17721875,"end":146.08409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":146.40471875,"end":147.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":147.75471875000002,"end":148.71659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":149.37471875,"end":150.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":151.46721875,"end":154.20096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":155.12909375,"end":155.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":156.78284375,"end":156.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":157.22159375,"end":158.18346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":158.63909375,"end":161.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":161.32221875000002,"end":162.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":163.00971875000002,"end":163.02659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":163.09409375,"end":163.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":165.49034375000002,"end":165.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":166.67159375,"end":168.10596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":169.52346875,"end":171.44721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.88596875000002,"end":172.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":172.37534375,"end":174.34971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":175.24409375000002,"end":176.91471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":177.96096875,"end":180.37409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.24346875,"end":180.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":181.43721875,"end":183.73221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":184.25534375,"end":187.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":187.98471875,"end":192.42284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":194.09346875,"end":195.69659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":196.30409375000002,"end":197.51909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":198.04221875000002,"end":200.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":200.47221875000002,"end":202.26096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":202.71659375000002,"end":204.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":204.79221875000002,"end":207.35721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.92721875,"end":205.95659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":207.79596875000001,"end":212.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":213.22971875000002,"end":219.49034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":220.50284375,"end":221.53221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":221.70096875000002,"end":222.173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