{"error":false,"id":["152209"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":152209,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152209","日期":"2024-05-06","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-23-11","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第11次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":11,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[23],"委員會代碼:str":["交通委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第11次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-05-06T11:00:39+08:00","結束時間":"2024-05-06T11:09:55+08:00","影片長度":"00:09:16","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6319d5f220c85a6884e3170d3a06acd302d7c7fd85210785801aa916026d4d42e8601f8ea01c43fd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"魯明哲","委員發言時間":"11:00:39 - 11:09:55","會議時間":"2024-05-06T10:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部部長王國材「針對台鐵票價上漲暨列車準點率提升作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":242,"blocks":[["魯委員明哲：（11時）好，謝謝主席，有請胡次長、杜董事長。"],["主席：好，胡次長、杜董。"],["魯委員明哲：杜董，我內心現在在想一件事，事實上在政府體制裡面公司化，雖然百分之百由政府持股，但是已經給你最大的彈性，希望你能夠有一些改變跟迎接這些挑戰，當然要迎接的這些挑戰才剛開始。我要拜託一下，剛剛很多委員問到了，第一個，因為過去我們大概承襲很多日本的制度，首先我們現在人事，在過去主要是年功制，論資排輩，他要搞到爺爺的時候才可以做到什麼站長之類的，對不對？其實它有它時代的背景，而且長期為一家企業付出，我覺得也是肯定，可是如果給你公司化，這麼多年輕的兵力進來，我們是期待怎麼因應新興的網絡時代，民眾對於服務的要求，他沒辦法停在那個時代等你慢慢改變，所以我也跟你反映過了，我們看到很多做到站長的，說真的民眾大概問他什麼事，他有時候要答不答的，也許不是每一個啦！愛理不理的，上面交代的事情跟他沒有關係啊！反正我熬到這邊、我年功制，所以我覺得這個一定要改變，理由很簡單嘛！當然跟年齡正相關，經歷要正相關，但是有時候，我們有一些比較年輕的，他能夠服務民眾更好，對於進站的民眾，甚至在第一線售票的、在車上服務、跟民眾接觸的，我覺得這個非常重要，你要要求。","第二個、票價調整，拜託，拜託，我看當時部長也是說大概到了非調不可的情況，如果是這樣，我要拜託一下，你們觀念一定要改變。過去你們主要用兩個思考來調票價，第一個是什麼車種，比如說是自強號；第二個是哪一站到哪一站，就定個票價出來，哪怕是自強號從頭用爬的爬6小時過去到高雄好了，我只是隨便打個比方，臺北站出發站，站站停、大站停、小站停，爬5個小時爬到高雄，不好意思，843，謝謝。現在EMU3000進來了，車的性能、可調性不同，有科技化的管理，你現在又公司化了，未來應該越來越多跳島式的服務來保證。假設臺北到高雄，搞不好有些車是3個小時就到，所以如果你票價……次長在這裡，如果搞到現在，最後調出來的票價，以臺北到高雄為例，爬5個小時的給人家收843，我是說站站停的車，你根本不應該調，就是大家覺得我經濟沒有辦法負擔，但是我願意用時間來換，這種東西都不要去調，你就這麼慢嘛！可是你節省時間了，譬如說能夠在4個小時以內的你要收什麼票價？多150，舉個例子，如果能夠到達兩個多小時的，你收到現在報導的，多300。我是建議這兩件事，可不可以朝這個方向來做？"],["杜董事長微：可以，會朝委員剛剛講的這個方向。"],["魯委員明哲：不要說哪一站到哪一站，5個小時跟2個小時一樣是不行的。我現在希望你們專注本業，現在從年初我們特別看到，其實臺鐵公司是這樣，因為你們肩負著國家的任務，很多的工作、很多的營利，有時候也不能全怪你們，但是我們真的期待你專注本業，因為你們不是一個普通的公司、行業，什麼從買車你們自己買、鐵路自己建，就沒有嘛！幾千億的你都沒有自己做，不算，基本上有些部分折舊而已啦，就不算你們成本，政府來出合不合理？當然要，所以我拜託你現在談的盈虧，就是你帶領了這麼多的戰士好了，好不好？你的員工在政府提供這麼多資源之下，在你管轄的範圍裡面，你能夠轉虧為盈，但我當然看到，因為我現在看到這個是一則以喜，一則以憂，我本來希望有些專業鐵道雜誌、鐵道論述談到我們臺鐵公司化之後的情況，結果看到你們現在上的報導是富比士地產王，包括住展（MY HOUSING）還有財訊，談的都是你們土地的開發。我就想請教一下，因為你們去年有一個專案，先估一下，處理這4塊地，我就不一一唸了，包括臺北2塊，預估市價100億、20億，這樣131億，還有基隆光明街的35億，然後再來高雄自立路39億，加起來兩百多億，目前的進度如何？"],["杜董事長微：跟委員報告，臺北安東街的這一個案子今年會推出，光明街也會，塔城街這個案子因為附近有住戶，所以我們現在還在評估要用什麼……"],["魯委員明哲：你這個還是用上網招標比價的方式嗎？"],["杜董事長微：會。"],["魯委員明哲：還是一樣嘛！"],["杜董事長微：對。"],["魯委員明哲：那搞不好會標很高。我也看到你有承諾說大概115年希望能夠打平，然後幾年之後能夠轉虧為盈，如果在你目前規劃之下，每一年平均要賣地多少億？就是在土地資產處分之下有多少？票統另外說了，你現在規劃要轉虧為盈，土地的處理大概要出來多少資金？"],["杜董事長微：跟委員報告，剛剛委員講的，我們沒有賣地啦！我們只是把資產活化而已。"],["魯委員明哲：是，那收入大概多少？要達到多少收入？"],["杜董事長微：我們預估現金流大概115年的時候可以轉正。"],["魯委員明哲：好，沒關係，因為那時候我們再等著看啦，你就是收入的結構嘛！最後我再1分鐘，因為現在我們主力EMU3000城際列車上路了，大家都非常非常期待啦，我也首先要給你們一個掌聲，就是在外觀設計，這個車型得到日本GOOD DESIGN AWARD，這個獎項是不簡單的，大概跟紅點的等級滿類似的，所以這不簡單，這是你們自己設計還是日本設計的？"],["杜董事長微：這個是日本那邊的設計，但是我們有全程參與，做一個修改……"],["魯委員明哲：好，看到這個，在臺灣能夠坐到這樣的車，我們是很感動、很感謝，感動到什麼地步呢？每次上車，上到你們車上，我看到很多人都下跪在那邊，幹什麼？這麼感動嗎？得到日本的獎。原來要插個電，沒有跪下去找不到，我的天啊！大家都在跪啊！我不知道為什麼會這樣設計，這麼低級，這麼低級你知道嗎？真的，我們那天去花蓮，兩個人跪在地下，就找這個孔，因為它藏在椅子的正下方，我跟你講，全世界唯一設計是這樣的，到底為什麼會這樣設計？"],["杜董事長微：跟委員報告，這個插孔因為是手機或者是筆電要充電，它都會有連線，我們在設計之初是怕這個連線在旅客出入座位的時候會有所妨礙……"],["魯委員明哲：是。"],["杜董事長微：所以才把它設置在比較隱密的地方，但這個我們有在研議……"],["魯委員明哲：我跟你講，現在很多公共運輸，不管是飛機，包括像高鐵都有啦，像你這麼聰明的設計，它有延長線，可是怎麼插進去、線在哪裡？我跟你講，你下次辦一個比賽，一個人坐一個位置，最快的給他……這個太低級了，你上次跟我講說因為美學設計，是不是專家跟你建議的？"],["杜董事長微：也有。"],["魯委員明哲：所以這種專家以後不能請啊！名字公布一下，不是，這太低級了，不要說我，所有的公共……交通也好、公共的領域，你怎麼可以這樣？而且我們現在用火車的，至少一半是高齡者，上去沒有跪著找不到這個部分，我覺得太低級了，我覺得太低級了，真的有機會要改善一下，謝謝。"],["杜董事長微：是，我們來改善。"],["主席（陳委員雪生）：謝謝魯明哲委員的發言。","下一位請徐富癸委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":108,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-11","speakers":["陳雪生","林國成","林沛祥","李昆澤","黃建賓","廖先翔","魯明哲","徐富癸","蔡其昌","陳素月","林俊憲","黃健豪","何欣純","邱若華","王鴻薇","游顥","林德福","洪孟楷","黃國昌","林月琴","張啓楷","黃珊珊","黃仁","許智傑","陳冠廷"],"page_start":59,"meetingDate":["2024-05-06"],"gazette_id":"1134101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請交通部部長王國材「針對台鐵票價上漲暨列車準點率提升作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1134101_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.9372187499999995,"end":8.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.738468750000003,"end":9.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.700343750000002,"end":10.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.392218750000001,"end":11.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.40471875,"end":11.860343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.21409375,"end":18.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.656593750000003,"end":21.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.457843750000002,"end":29.089718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.410343750000003,"end":31.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.199093750000003,"end":32.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.12284375,"end":37.814093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.26971875,"end":41.02034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.23971875,"end":45.205343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.64409375,"end":47.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.85471875,"end":57.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.57471875,"end":58.19909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.283468750000004,"end":60.12284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.375968750000006,"end":62.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.24909375,"end":62.299718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.35034375,"end":63.531593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.13909375,"end":65.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.43409375,"end":74.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.24284375,"end":76.87971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.53784375000001,"end":77.90909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.56721875000001,"end":79.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.08596875,"end":84.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.38471875,"end":88.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.72596875,"end":92.03346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.32034375,"end":94.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.93596875,"end":97.93971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.99034375000001,"end":101.58471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.17534375000001,"end":119.21909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.55659375,"end":121.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.32846875000001,"end":122.44221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.03284375000001,"end":127.84221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.53409375,"end":129.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.57596875000002,"end":132.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.42784375000002,"end":134.76096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.09846875,"end":137.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.30909375000002,"end":138.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.36784375000002,"end":140.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.26221875000002,"end":140.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.85284375,"end":141.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.25346875,"end":142.54034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.82721875000001,"end":144.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.56534375,"end":145.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.01659375,"end":146.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.62409375000001,"end":147.83909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.19346875000002,"end":155.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.48346875000001,"end":156.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.83346875,"end":157.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.82909375,"end":159.24659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.03971875000002,"end":163.88721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.66346875000002,"end":167.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","sta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沒關係 因為那時候我們在等著看啦你就是收錄的一個結構嘛最後 再一分鐘啦因為現在我們主力啊 EMU3000 沉積列車上路大家都非常非常期待啦我也首先要給你們一個掌聲就是在外觀設計 這個車型這個得到日本 Good Design Award"},{"start":429.677,"end":451.677,"text":"這個獎項是不簡單的大概跟那個紅點有點非常那個等級蠻類似的所以這不簡單的這是你們自己設計還是日本他設計的這個是日本那邊的設計但是我們有全程參與好 看到這個我們真的在台灣能夠做到這樣的車我們是很感動很感謝感動到什麼地步呢每次上車啊"},{"start":453.615,"end":459.887,"text":"上到你們車上咧我看到很多人都下跪在那邊我幹什麼這麼感動嗎得到日本的獎原來"},{"start":461.284,"end":485.59,"text":"要擦個墊沒有跪下去掃不到我的天啊大家在跪啊在你你我不知道為什麼會這樣的設計這麼低級啊這麼低級你知道嗎真的我我們那句話連兩個兩個跪在跪在地下就找這個孔啊因為在藏在椅子的正下方我跟你講全世界唯一設計是這樣的到底為什麼會這樣設計"},{"start":487.986,"end":501.734,"text":"這個委員報告就是這個插孔因為它是手機或者是筆電要充電它都會有連線那我們在設計之初是怕這個連線在旅客出入座位的時候會有所妨礙"},{"start":503.18,"end":531.16,"text":"是那所以才把他設置在比較隱密但這個我們有在研議我跟你講現在很多公共運輸不管是飛機包括像有些高鐵他都有啦像這麼聰明的設計他有延長線可是怎麼插進去現在哪裡我跟你講你下次辦一個比賽一個人坐一個位置最快的給他不過這個太低級了你上次跟我講說因為美學設計是不是專家跟你建議了"},{"start":532.524,"end":532.864,"text":"魯明哲委員"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}