{"error":false,"id":["152220"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":152220,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152220","日期":"2024-05-06","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"聯席會議-11-1-20,15-1","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期財政、內政委員會第1次聯席會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":1,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"聯席會議","委員會代碼":[20,15],"委員會代碼:str":["財政委員會","內政委員會"],"標題":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政、內政委員會第1次聯席會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-05-06T11:50:38+08:00","結束時間":"2024-05-06T12:00:03+08:00","影片長度":"00:09:25","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6319d5f220c85a68fb2209aedc804e8084bf63cf92ad2af6801aa916026d4d42d32e804fdbe4d6515ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"11:50:38 - 12:00:03","會議時間":"2024-05-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政、內政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查本院委員賴士葆等22人、委員傅崐萁等20人分別擬具「地方稅法通則第四條條文修正草案」等2案。\n【5月6日及8日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":869,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（11時50分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請次長。"],["主席：請李次長。"],["李次長慶華：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：次長好，之前我曾經在財政委員會公開提出檢舉，足協根本沒有支付球員比賽的費用，竟然發出了偽造的扣繳憑單，上一次財政部給我的答復說他們已經更正了，那我的問題是他們明明就沒有給錢，沒有給錢還可以出具偽造的扣繳憑單，上面的文書內容實際上就是登載不實，你們說要回去研究，那現在研究的結果是什麼？"],["李次長慶華：報告委員，我們北區國稅局已經有處理了，據我所瞭解，應該會以不實憑證列報相關費用，有違反相關的法律規定，所以他們會移送檢調。"],["黃委員國昌：什麼時候移送檢調？"],["李次長慶華：我不知道他發文了沒有，他們現在會透過財政部來正式發文給黃委員。"],["黃委員國昌：什麼時候會發文？"],["李次長慶華：請署長來說明一下。"],["宋署長秀玲：報告委員，這個案子在您關心之後，我們北區國稅局積極處理，目前他們有研擬一個處理方式報我們財政部，但其實這個是沒有財政部決行的問題，北區國稅局可以就事實來查核，所以我們會再跟他們溝通。"],["黃委員國昌：你要跟他們溝通什麼？剛剛次長講的是不是真的？依法移送檢調？"],["李次長慶華：目前的具體方向是這樣、目前查證的結果是這樣。"],["黃委員國昌：我希望，發現了這種離譜的犯罪事實，財政部、國稅局要有立場，不能讓他們這樣胡搞瞎搞。上次我在教文委員會質詢的時候，我看體育署是明顯想要放水，當然體育署想要放水有他們自己深層的理由，因為現在的體育署署長當初就是那個足協的秘書長，所以我說我不信任體育署自己查自己，現在的體育署署長去查以前的足協秘書長，這不是太荒謬了嗎？但財政部今天這樣子的答復，我覺得有做到一個行政機關依法行政該做的事情，就像我上次跟你們講的，這麼離譜的事情，不是透過內部喬一喬、私下更正就算了，該移送檢調就要移送檢調，你們正式移送檢調的時候，公文一併回復給我可以嗎？"],["李次長慶華：會，其實我們北區國稅局現在就是要正式答復委員，只是因為當時是財委會裡面的會議紀錄，所以他們才想透過財政部來做回復……"],["黃委員國昌：儘速好不好？"],["李次長慶華：我們會儘速回復。"],["黃委員國昌：請部長不要把公文壓在桌上。"],["李次長慶華：不會、不會，我們會儘速回復。"],["黃委員國昌：好。第二個事情，我之前也在財委會公開質詢過，針對2019年彰銀有理專挪用客戶6,300萬，結果檢調明明都去搜了，媒體爆料了以後，彰銀才急急忙忙發布重訊，你看這個時間序上，我們公股行庫──彰銀，財政部在進行管理的時候，對於公股行庫發生這麼離譜的事情，是不是有消息的遮掩、有沒有依法發重訊這件事情，我上次提出了質詢以後，請問財政部有沒有請你們國庫署，因為我知道國庫署的副署長應該在彰銀是董事嘛！到底發生了什麼事？他們怎麼處理的？這樣子處理是不是符合相關的規定？財政部後續的處理是什麼？我完全沒有看到彰銀針對這件事情有任何公開的回復。"],["李次長慶華：這部分我們可不可以請國庫署署長說明。"],["黃委員國昌：可以，請國庫署。"],["陳署長柏誠：跟委員報告，因為彰銀發布重訊是依據證交所發布重訊的作業辦法來判斷，他們判斷那時候檢調搜索的是一個已經離職員工的家裡，所以他就沒辦法就這個來判斷……"],["黃委員國昌：來，我們來看一下公司發生內部舞弊、非常規交易或掏空資產的重大事件，這個算不算依照臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司發布重訊的相關規定？現在我的問題就來了嘛，彰銀連自己裡面員工挪用客戶6,300萬這種事情都可以不發重訊，現在我質疑這是不是財政部的立場？這是不是國庫署的立場？因為這個態度奠定下去了以後，所有不僅僅是公股行庫，民營的銀行大家有樣學樣，公股行庫在這種情況下都沒有發重訊了，憑什麼要求其他的民營銀行在這個時候要發布重訊？理專去挪用客戶6,300萬，目前國庫署的立場是，在這種情況下不用發布重訊沒有關係嗎？"],["陳署長柏誠：我們這邊的回應是，因為發生當時還很難判斷它到底符不符合發布重訊的相關規定……"],["黃委員國昌：你們是到什麼時候才確定他有挪用6,300萬？"],["陳署長柏誠：他在109年7月的時候依照規定發布重訊……"],["黃委員國昌：對啊！你在2019年6月的時候不就發現了這件事嗎？這個就是我講的point啊！你一定要等到媒體爆料的時候，然後你們才發了遲來的重訊，問題是這本來就是上市公司自己要揭露的事情啊！你現在跟我講的事情是在發布重訊以前，彰銀內部還沒有確定有6,300萬被挪用，是真的嗎？國庫署。"],["陳署長柏誠：是啊，它當時……"],["黃委員國昌：好，沒有關係。再下一個案子，2024年彰化銀行發現了一樣的事，辦事員挪用客戶的款項，利用他人的帳戶移轉客戶的資金，向客戶借貸、從事不當投資，有沒有向財政部通報？有沒有移檢調？有沒有發重訊？"],["陳署長柏誠：有，這個部分在1月24號有發重大偶發事件到財政部。"],["黃委員國昌：發給財政部以後呢？它有發重訊嗎？你剛剛不是跟我說要發現了以後才能發，那我現在就貼彰銀內部的通告給你看，他們發現了也處分了，有發重訊嗎？"],["陳署長柏誠：關於發布重訊的部分，目前看起來是沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：為什麼可以不發？"],["陳署長柏誠：委員，不好意思，剛剛我們的回應是，因為重訊這東西是公司依照證交所的相關規定判斷，我們尊重它自己的判斷……"],["黃委員國昌：先停一下，判斷我們的公股行庫有沒有依照證交所的規定發重訊，財政部的立場是這件事情財政部管不到，是這樣嗎？如果連我們自己的公股行庫都沒有依照證交所相關的規定，該發重訊的時候發重訊，你要怎麼去要求其他的上市櫃公司？這個不是最基本的嗎？"],["陳署長柏誠：首先彰銀是依據相關規定判斷，但是我們也會事後再督導一下彰銀有沒有確實的落實……"],["黃委員國昌：所以你們督導的結果是怎麼樣？你們督導的結果如何？"],["陳署長柏誠：目前我們看過他們的相關資料，他們自己的內部資料裡面是都有訂相關的一些發生事件標準……"],["黃委員國昌：我已經貼出來給你看了，彰銀自己已經認定了，我現在的問題是，為什麼這種事情，我們的公股行庫可以遮掩？為什麼可以不用發重訊？這是我的問題。因為主席站起來了，他一直跟我示意時間到了，請財政部跟彰銀一起書面回復，好嗎？"],["陳署長柏誠：謝謝委員，可以。"],["黃委員國昌：這個標準的實踐很重要喔！如果連我們的公股　行庫自己都不守規矩，財政部一句話都不吭，我們以後如何要求其他上市櫃公司發生舞弊的時候要依法發重訊？需要多久的時間，一個禮拜之內可以嗎？"],["陳署長柏誠：委員，這個部分我們希望他們能夠依照證交所的相關規定去落實，所以目前正在研簽，所以是不是可以……"],["黃委員國昌：一個禮拜之內可以嗎？"],["陳署長柏誠：一個月的時間，謝謝。"],["黃委員國昌：一個月的時間太長了，請主席裁示。"],["主席：好，時間到，兩個禮拜資料補充。"],["陳署長柏誠：遵照辦理。"],["黃委員國昌：請兩個禮拜之內把東西交出來。"],["主席：下一位質詢請洪孟楷委員、洪孟楷、洪孟楷、洪孟楷委員不在。","請鍾佳濱委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":58,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-20,15-1","speakers":["羅明才","賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","賴惠員","顏寬恒","牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","李彥秀","李坤城","王鴻薇","張宏陸","陳玉珍","張智倫","王世堅","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王美惠","許宇甄","李柏毅"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-06"],"gazette_id":"1134101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政、內政委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查本院委員賴士葆等22人、委員傅崐萁等20人分別擬具「地方稅法通則第四條條文修正草案」\n等2案","agenda_id":"1134101_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.7434687500000003,"end":5.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.46034375,"end":7.101593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12.484718750000003,"end":12.957218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.497218750000002,"end":19.403468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.80846875,"end":37.830968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.11784375,"end":41.391593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.88096875,"end":42.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.01159375,"end":45.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.42034375,"end":50.031593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":50.23409375,"end":66.55221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.22721875,"end":68.54346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":68.69534375,"end":71.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":72.35721875,"end":76.72784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.38596875,"end":78.38159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":78.46596875,"end":81.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":81.41909375,"end":97.68659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.47971875,"end":102.83346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":103.72784375,"end":108.25034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.65534375,"end":109.51596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11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客戶的資金向客戶借貸從事不當的投資有沒有向財政部通報有沒有移檢調有沒有發訊息"},{"start":408.593,"end":430.828,"text":"有,他這個部份在1月24號有發重大午發到財政部發給財政部以後呢,他有發重訊嗎?你剛不是跟我說要發線以後才能發那我現在就貼啊張宜內部的通告給你看啊,他們發線啊有處分啊有發重訊嗎?這個發布重訊的部份目前"},{"start":438.444,"end":443.166,"text":"為什麼可以不發?先停一下齁我們的宮古行庫有沒有依照證書、證交所的規定發訊息財政部的立場是這件事情財政部管不到,是這樣嗎?"},{"start":463.635,"end":488.762,"text":"如果連我們自己的公股黃庫都沒有依照證交所相關的規定該發訊息的時候發訊息,你要怎麼去要求其他的上市櫃公司?這不是最基本的嗎?首先張瑩她是依據她相關規定判斷,但是我們也會事後再督導一下張瑩這邊有沒有確實的落實所以你們督導的結果是怎麼樣?"},{"start":491.072,"end":513.147,"text":"你們督導的結果如何?目前我們看過他們的相關資料喔,他們自己的內部資料裡面是都有定相關的一些發生…我已經貼出來給你看欸!我已經貼出來給你看欸!張瑩自己已經認定了欸!我現在的問題是為什麼這種事情我們的公股、航庫可以遮掩?為什麼可以不用發訊息?"},{"start":514.947,"end":542.173,"text":"這是我的問題啦因為主席站起來了他一直跟我示意我時間到了請財政部跟張穎一起書面回覆好嗎?謝謝委員可以這個標準 這個標準的實踐很重要喔如果連我們的工股、行庫自己都不守規矩財政部一句話都不吭我們以後如何要求其他上市貴公司發生舞弊的時候要依法發重訊需要多久的時間?一個禮拜之內可以嗎?"},{"start":544.104,"end":545.345,"text":"一個禮拜之內可以嗎?一個月的時間太長了,請主席才是請兩個禮拜之內把東西交出來"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}