{"error":false,"id":["152221"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":152221,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152221","日期":"2024-05-06","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"聯席會議-11-1-20,15-1","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期財政、內政委員會第1次聯席會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":1,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"聯席會議","委員會代碼":[20,15],"委員會代碼:str":["財政委員會","內政委員會"],"標題":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政、內政委員會第1次聯席會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-05-06T12:00:16+08:00","結束時間":"2024-05-06T12:08:28+08:00","影片長度":"00:08:12","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6319d5f220c85a688ed1153bcfa8f68984bf63cf92ad2af6801aa916026d4d42fbbbce6fde1d30f15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"12:00:16 - 12:08:28","會議時間":"2024-05-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政、內政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查本院委員賴士葆等22人、委員傅崐萁等20人分別擬具「地方稅法通則第四條條文修正草案」等2案。\n【5月6日及8日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":918,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（12時）主席、在場的委員先進、列席政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、記者媒體女士先生。有請財政部李次長。"],["主席：請李次長。"],["李次長慶華：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：次長好。我們最近常常就財政部有關於稅賦公平跟照顧弱勢的問題來跟您進行請教，我們來看一看今天這個案例，其實我很少看到財政部對立法院修法，你們的報告只有簡單兩頁，看起來財政部對於這樣的修法，似乎是沒有太多意見，我請教一下，目前各地方政府開徵特別稅有爭議、有行政訴訟的有哪幾件？"],["李次長慶華：目前只有花蓮縣政府的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：只有花蓮縣政府這一件？"],["李次長慶華：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這一件的主要標的是什麼？"],["李次長慶華：礦石稅……"],["鍾委員佳濱：不是礦石，是礦石開採特別稅，那是從2009年開始，然後2012年它公布自治條例施行期間是4年，4年那個期程是根據我們的規定，對不對？"],["李次長慶華：是可以4年，對，沒錯。特別稅實施期間就是4年。"],["鍾委員佳濱：然後在2016年予以廢止，廢止之後它的標準從原來10塊錢變成70塊錢，為什麼要提前廢止？是不是提前廢止之後，就可以從10塊調到70塊，是這個原因嗎？從10元調到70元是不是受它自己自治條例的限制？"],["李次長慶華：對，它自己的自治條例。"],["鍾委員佳濱：它自己的自治條例規定了，就不能夠調超過30%，是不是這樣？"],["李次長慶華：沒有，因為它自治條例是依照地方稅法通則第三條的規定。"],["鍾委員佳濱：第三條，不是第四條？"],["李次長慶華：對，第四條才有中央立法的地方稅，才會有30%的限制。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，中央立法的地方稅有什麼？像房屋稅還有什麼？"],["李次長慶華：房屋稅、地價稅，還有使用牌照稅。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對的，所以它自己自治條例的訂定是要根據第三條，如果是根據第三條，就沒有這30%的限制，那它幹嘛要廢掉？它不廢掉，它就不受限制，可以10塊錢調到70塊啊！為什麼要把它的自治條例廢掉，然後才從10塊調到70塊？"],["李次長慶華：因為它要調增稅額，或者是要訂定新的稅額，就必須要把原來的自治條例廢止，重新、新訂自治條例，然後經過議會的通過才可以執行。"],["鍾委員佳濱：喔！所以它提前廢止，然後公布一個新的自治條例，依這個新的自治條例就從10塊調70塊，對不對？"],["李次長慶華：是，沒錯。"],["鍾委員佳濱：它是根據第三條，不是第四條，所以它有權可以這樣做，是這樣嗎？"],["李次長慶華：依照目前的第三條是這樣。"],["鍾委員佳濱：現在我們來看一下，全國各地方政府只有花蓮有這樣一個稅收，對不對？"],["李次長慶華：對，爭訟案件。"],["鍾委員佳濱：而且你看這個金額，南投還有一些金額，其他還有的是30億左右，但它獨獨可以達到快80億以上，是不是占我們全國地方稅、特別稅將近一半，是不是這樣？"],["李次長慶華：對，它的金額是比較大一點。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請問一下，我們看到它的行政訴訟是連敗20次。"],["李次長慶華：沒有啦，大概就是8件吧！"],["鍾委員佳濱：8件，20次全部敗訴，為什麼法院判它敗訴？"],["李次長慶華：法院判敗訴的原因，第一個，因為行政法院對於我們第三條、第四條的適用範圍，他們可能有一些誤解，誤以為它是要受到第四條30%的限制。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我知道意思了，可能法院的認知上跟我們立法者或者我們執法者有點不太一樣。好，我們往下看，但是我覺得這要小心啦！因為全國只有花蓮產大理石，對不對？"],["李次長慶華：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：花蓮是大理石的主要礦區，全國用的水泥是不是來自於花蓮為主？礦場占了四成，對不對？"],["李次長慶華：主要是來自花蓮。"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果它因為調整這個稅造成建材上漲，房價會不會上升？有沒有評估過這個情況？"],["李次長慶華：不一定啦！"],["鍾委員佳濱：不一定但是有這個可能，我舉個例子好了，以金門高粱為例，如果今天全臺灣就只有金門那裡的水可以釀大家喜歡的高粱酒，如果不是金門縣政府投資一個金酒公司，而是金門縣政府根據第三條來對所有金門釀高粱酒的酒廠課稅，我請教一下，如果金門縣政府把第三條的特別稅提高很多，你覺得全國的金門高粱會不會漲價？"],["李次長慶華：兩個是不同的東西。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我先就高粱酒的部分來問你，當然我知道高粱酒漲價，買不起就不要喝，就算了，也不是壞事啦！但是水泥不一樣，所以我要說的是，其實財政部從稅理上，從第三條、第四條的分際上，你們對於這樣的修正，你們是尊重我們立法院的決定，其實你們認為沒有什麼好反對的，但是本席要提醒你一下，你看看花蓮縣政府從10塊調到70塊，它收的這些錢有沒有對開礦礦區周邊的居民進行回饋，你有沒有去考察這一點？"],["李次長慶華：這個部分我們有要求地方政府。"],["鍾委員佳濱：它有做嗎？"],["李次長慶華：我們並沒有真正去瞭解他們實際上支出的狀況。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我覺得財政部管稅，不是管怎麼收，其實你們也會考量到稅賦公平、看怎麼用，如果今天花蓮縣政府可以課這麼多的稅收，占我們地方特別稅一半這樣的稅收，是因為花蓮有一個獨占全臺灣的礦產，這樣的礦產產出來的大理石，還有包括它的水泥，是全臺灣市場在使用，這是花蓮的貢獻，可是這個貢獻花蓮政府拿去了，真正承受礦區環境成本的是該地區的居民，基本上，這樣的稅我們在稅則上認同由地方政府來自行調整，但是對於地方政府有沒有善盡相關的工作，有兩個部分，首先是這樣的價格，會不會造成全臺灣消費者的負擔，以及這樣的收入有沒有反映到礦場周邊居民的回饋上？您覺得這兩個要不要評估？"],["李次長慶華：跟委員報告，其實我們現在在審查他們這些地方自治條例的時候，就是報到財政部來審查的時候，我們都有要求各縣市政府，第一個，一定要舉辦公聽會，然後要跟當地受影響的利害關係人進行相關的溝通。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以你們有要求就對了。"],["李次長慶華：對，另外就是它的成本效益怎麼分析、做些什麼相關的用途，其實都要提供給我們相關參考的評估。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主席站起來了，我有兩個要求，第一個，如果這樣的稅，經過修法後地方政府可以依它的意思來調整，造成整個全國建材的波動，財政部要會同經濟部趕快去評估，可以嗎？"],["李次長慶華：其實我們在會議當中，還有會前審查自治條例的時候都有要求。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我請你再去跟經濟部說要評估。"],["李次長慶華：有，我們都有請他們表示意見。"],["鍾委員佳濱：因為今天房價的事情全國都關注，好不好？"],["李次長慶華：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：第二個，對於花蓮縣政府，他們過去公聽會上，有沒有將這個收益反映在礦場、環境成本受到影響最多的社區或居民上，有沒有做這樣的回饋，你們可不可以請他們拿出具體的一個研析讓大家知道？這個稅的確地方政府有它的權力收取，但是怎麼用，要跟大家交代，可以嗎？"],["李次長慶華：可以跟委員報告一下，我可不可以再說1分鐘就好？基本上它就是一個縣庫的收入，縣庫的收入他們是統收統支，他們去做相關的支出，到底是不是有一定比例要回饋到那個礦區周邊的居民，當然……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們的空污稅、空污費也是一樣啊！也是特定的，就是要說明空污費是要用在哪裡啊！"],["李次長慶華：因為它不是專款專用的概念。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以請財政部就這部分請地方政府提出一個研析，讓我們大家都知道，好不好？"],["李次長慶華：這個我們可以請花蓮縣政府提供。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請鄭正鈐委員，鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐，鄭委員不在。","請林楚茵，林楚茵、林楚茵、林楚茵，林委員不在。","請傅崐萁，傅崐萁、傅崐萁，傅委員不在。","今日登記發言委員均已詢答完畢。","現在進行討論事項之處理，請議事人員宣讀地方稅法通則第四條條文修正草案兩案之提案內容，宣讀完畢後進行協商。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":58,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-20,15-1","speakers":["羅明才","賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","賴惠員","顏寬恒","牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","李彥秀","李坤城","王鴻薇","張宏陸","陳玉珍","張智倫","王世堅","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王美惠","許宇甄","李柏毅"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-06"],"gazette_id":"1134101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政、內政委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查本院委員賴士葆等22人、委員傅崐萁等20人分別擬具「地方稅法通則第四條條文修正草案」\n等2案","agenda_id":"1134101_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.902843750000002,"end":20.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.11596875,"end":23.132843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.132843750000003,"end":23.200343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.200343750000002,"end":23.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.79096875,"end":37.78034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.21471875,"end":40.27784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.969718750000006,"end":44.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.087218750000005,"end":47.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.77034375,"end":50.369093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.65596875,"end":53.862218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.15346875,"end":57.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.064718750000004,"end":54.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.55784375,"end":60.12284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.59159375,"end":5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