{"error":false,"id":["152307"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":152307,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152307","日期":"2024-05-08","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-19-11","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":11,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[19],"委員會代碼:str":["經濟委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-05-08T10:24:24+08:00","結束時間":"2024-05-08T10:35:33+08:00","影片長度":"00:11:09","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9fa9bc2102b9cf7186552aa267d2f761f2e1d4ff16295ce236499d1b681a2ac782ede71b137622785ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"10:24:24 - 10:35:33","會議時間":"2024-05-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查113年度中央政府總預算有關農業部及所屬主管預算凍結案等3案。（如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查）\n二、審查本院委員陳冠廷等30人擬具「農產品市場交易法第三十五條條文修正草案」案。）","gazette":{"lineno":862,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（10時24分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳代理部長駿季：委員早。"],["張委員啓楷：部長早。我們4月17日一起去屏東，我們是要去追雞蛋去化的公開透明。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["張委員啓楷：不過那天看起來去的委員都生氣了，包括脾氣很好的楊瓊瓔委員都動怒、發火了，他剛剛又問，也動怒了。老實講，本席辦公室很多民眾打電話進來是在抗議的，我們現在就事論事，那天最後有做3點決定，對不對？雞蛋去化的影帶要完整公開，4月30號以前要在農業部的官網公開，你們有完整公開了嗎？你們是把我們委員會的決議當成是空氣？"],["陳代理部長駿季：當初在委員會也跟委員說明了，我們的錄影帶本身是每一天、每一天的……"],["張委員啓楷：那個是量大啦！"],["陳代理部長駿季：那個直接進到……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我先跟你說，我去農業部的官網上面看，你上傳了3部影片嘛，對不對？這3部其實就是我們那天去屏東看到的，那這個沒有違反我們那一天經濟委員會做的決議嗎？決議裡面有2個點很重要，第一個叫完整、第二個叫做公開透明，對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["張委員啓楷：你這3個有完整嗎？有公開透明嗎？你回給本席還說那個檔案太大，現在是資訊化的時代，有檔案太大的問題嗎？6.7TB，你上YT，整理完很快就可以上去啦，這沒有容量的限制啊！"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員說明，當我們進到全部的官網，我們所有的影片絕對可以公告，我剛剛說過了，我們公開的部分是讓外界知道，我們過期雞蛋的報廢過程都有第三方監督整個流程，它只是一個流程的部分……"],["張委員啓楷：對啦，所以……"],["陳代理部長駿季：如果需要的話可以來索取，我們就會給他。"],["張委員啓楷：現在有幾個問題，第一個，這是本委員會我們一起去屏東當場發的白紙黑字嘛，對不對？你也在現場，裡面就是完整公開啊，怎麼會只有3部呢？這是第一個，對不對？第二個，現在是數位化時代、資訊化時代，你怎麼講說檔案太大呢？你們不是有很多資訊人員嗎？你有資訊司，對不對？你隨便去問你們資訊司的人員，這個要上去有什麼難的？太簡單了！現在最重要的就是，你答應的時候，每天就應該要整理、上傳了嘛！第一個，你沒有做這個動作。","所以本席今天非常明確的要求，這個是我們委員會做的決議，你要落實：第一個，每部去化影片完整上傳到你們農業部的官網，在YT上面；第二個，名稱應該有個範例嘛，這個很容易整理，你只要分類，有日期、從哪個倉儲出去了、去哪個去化廠、數量，你照這樣很簡單，整個就上去啦，讓人民去檢視嘛！","部長，你為什麼從代理部長變成真除？你的民調是不錯的喔，為什麼有些部長被換掉，因為民調很不好嘛。我跟你講，你現在要面對民眾，民眾有那麼多憤怒、那麼多的生氣，可是你還可以真除當部長，因為這個是以前陳吉仲幹的事啊，所以就下臺啦，你不要引火焚身喔，你要面對民眾去解決問題嘛！","而且這個是本委會的要求，做這兩點好不好？完整上去；第二個，你的檔案用範例、日期、倉儲、去化廠跟數量，很快就可以上去啦，讓人民去檢視，要不然民眾怎麼知道真相？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員說明，當初沒有辦法全部上去，我們也詢問過相關的資訊部分，因為上去本身是一件事情，外界收看時的下載流量部分是一個……不是我上傳、掛上去就結束了，如果你要其他的日期我們可以提供。如果委員覺得我們這個不對……"],["張委員啓楷：舉例啦，雙軌，你提供給本席啦；第二個更重要的，你們趕快做這件事啦，讓全民去檢視，我現在跟你講……"],["陳代理部長駿季：OK，可以。"],["張委員啓楷：你如果不做這個動作……"],["陳代理部長駿季：我覺得可以。"],["張委員啓楷：好不好？"],["陳代理部長駿季：如果全部的檔案提供給……我們用整個檔案的部分提供給委員，也容委員能夠同意我們再跟資訊司……因為我們怕整個網站掛掉，掛上去是一件事情，但後面流量會引起……"],["張委員啓楷：不會掛掉就要做這件事喔，好不好？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["張委員啓楷：好，OK。"],["陳代理部長駿季：然後我把個別所有的東西……"],["張委員啓楷：你們資訊這麼進步、現在是數位時代，這樣一個6.7TB的上去就掛掉，農業部沒這麼脆弱！"],["陳代理部長駿季：不是，上去絕對沒問題，就是後面流量的控管。"],["張委員啓楷：好啦，去克服這個問題，好不好？"],["陳代理部長駿季：然後我把所有完整的影片給你。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我要跟你講一個重點，第一個，這是我們委員會的決議，要公開完整的決議。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["張委員啓楷：第二個，你們要取信於全民，民調會不會掉下來就看這個了！"],["陳代理部長駿季：瞭解。"],["張委員啓楷：來看一下，你的雞蛋有些不見了。過期蛋到底幾顆？是5,580萬顆，還是銷毀了5,772萬顆……"],["陳代理部長駿季：分兩個部分報告：5,580萬顆是那時候截止，包括專案報廢處理的5,580萬顆；至於5,772萬顆是在時間截止點前還有一百多萬顆，所以是陸續銷毀的。"],["張委員啓楷：所以到底是……這兩個數字差了192萬顆，到底哪一個是對的？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我分兩個部分解釋：5,580萬顆是專案報廢招標，包括招標做堆肥、做去化，這是一件事；在這個之前，我們已經陸續處理報廢雞蛋大概一百多萬顆，所以加起來是5,772萬顆。"],["張委員啓楷：所以正確的數目就是5,772萬顆，對不對？是不是這樣？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["張委員啓楷：消失的190萬顆要交代清楚啊？"],["陳代理部長駿季：這190萬顆其實在我們的官網一直都有出現，我強調的是5,580萬顆是我們專案處理的部分，包括招標的四千多萬顆的部分。因為委員那時候一直強調，這個四千多萬本身其實是5,580萬顆。"],["張委員啓楷：所以現在明確的數目是銷毀5,772萬顆，對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，5,580萬顆加190萬顆。"],["張委員啓楷：如果這樣的話，後面錢的事情就不對了！你用的是前面，你們真的是一日三價。部長，從陳吉仲到你，銷毀的雞蛋到底要多少錢？一日三價！這是全民買單喔，所以你們到底買了多少錢？銷毀用了多少錢？能不能給我一口價，而且是很清楚的價格？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我所得到……"],["張委員啓楷：不然每天每次問的答案都不一樣！"],["陳代理部長駿季：我所得到的資訊就是，農業部在112年補助畜產會8.2億，因為是年度結帳的，而今年度畜產會尚未對我們提出計畫申請，而且雞蛋本身……"],["張委員啓楷：我幫你整理一下。你看我的表格，今天全國民眾要知道的，就是為了去化，因為買的雞蛋過期，為了去化，這銷毀過程花了多少錢？4億7,509萬，對不對？這是明確的，對不對？一口價，這個很明確、不會再變了，對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：右邊的數字明確……"],["張委員啓楷：這是今天第一次出現。我們追了快一年了，這是有史以來最明確的數目。另外再加上前面的，你說買了多少蛋？8.2億嗎？加起來應該13億……"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有！8.2億是涵蓋了去化的4.7億，這不是相加的。"],["張委員啓楷：這是個錯誤政策！後面去化花了4億7,509萬，若再加上買蛋的錢，全部是多少？再加上去是多少？你說不是13億？是多少？10億？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們補助的是8.2億。"],["張委員啓楷：不能直接加上4.7億？"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有，是涵蓋在4.7億裡面。"],["張委員啓楷：所以花了多少錢？"],["陳代理部長駿季：Totally大概10億。"],["張委員啓楷：10億？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["張委員啓楷：請向全國民眾講，這個錯誤的政策一共花了人民10億的納稅錢！"],["陳代理部長駿季：我不認同這是錯誤的政策……"],["張委員啓楷：這是個烏龍……"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有！這不是政策錯誤……"],["張委員啓楷：連部長、中央畜產會的主委都下臺走人了，還不是錯誤政策？這裡面搞不好還有貪污問題，超思幫你們賺了多少錢？"],["陳代理部長駿季：如果委員認為有貪污問題，我想盡可能可以請檢調單位來調查，我覺得可以。但這不是一個錯誤的政策！"],["張委員啓楷：這對全民來講很重要！去化花了4億7,509萬，整體加起來超過10億，這是一個錯誤的政策！","最後，這是本席及其他委員的要求，2022年中央畜產會從日本專案進口雞蛋3,081萬顆，採購金額2億2,502萬，對此，我們已經索資索了兩個半月了，為什麼都不給？"],["陳代理部長駿季：跟委員說明……"],["張委員啓楷：我先明確要求。本席要求2022年從日本專案進口雞蛋的採購廠商名稱、採購數額、採購合約，還有為何迴避國會監督？已經兩個半月了！"],["陳代理部長駿季：跟委員報告……"],["張委員啓楷：一個禮拜內把報告送到本席辦公室。"],["陳代理部長駿季：跟委員說明，合約部分不是農業部訂的，是畜產會與跟第三方訂的。我也請畜產會……因為合約的公開要雙方都同意，所以我們請畜產會去問丙方；丙方認為是營業秘密，所以我們沒辦法公開。因為不是農業部簽約的，是乙、丙方。乙、丙方有一方不同意公開的話，我們就沒辦法公開。"],["張委員啓楷：中央畜產會都是用我們的錢訂的，現在立法委員要求公開，結果你拿不出來？"],["陳代理部長駿季：畜產會是一個法人……"],["張委員啓楷：到時候所有民間廠商都說我不公開，我們就沒辦法監督了？是這樣嗎？剛剛黃國昌已經打臉你了，也跟你講公開怎麼是由民間企業作主？"],["主席：時間到！部長，私下再跟張委員回復。"],["張委員啓楷：主席，你可以裁決，他資料要給我啊！"],["主席：我現在要裁決，你要讓我講話！時間到，請部長私下再來跟張委員報告，好不好？您的時間已經到了，好不好？"],["張委員啓楷：這是很清楚的，本席要的東西合法合理……"],["主席：主席就這樣裁決了，好不好？大家都是合法合理，請回。","請邱志偉委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":198,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-11","speakers":["邱議瑩","陳冠廷","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","鄭正鈐","賴瑞隆","林岱樺","鄭天財Sra 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否定從成起這種告例要銷毀的錢要多少錢一日三價你今天這是全民買單喔把數目字你到底買了多少錢銷毀用了多少錢能不能給我一口價很清楚的價格"},{"start":447.776,"end":466.924,"text":"我所得到的資訊就是我們農業部在112年本身我們補助的續展會是8.2億嘛對不對然後今年度因為他是年度結帳的那今年度續展會並沒有還沒有來跟我們去做相關的計畫的一些申請"},{"start":467.944,"end":469.065,"text":"而且這些雞蛋本身"},{"start":486.599,"end":488.38,"text":"八點二億是涵蓋的去化的四點七億不是相加的"},{"start":508.148,"end":509.989,"text":"二、審查本院委員．張啓楷二、審查本院委員．張啓楷二、審查本院委員．張啓楷"},{"start":528.054,"end":553.926,"text":"張啓楷跟全國觀眾講這個政策錯誤的政策一共花了人民的納稅錢我想這個不是我不認同這是錯誤的政策沒有這不是錯誤的政策連部長中央市長會的職位都下台走不是一個錯誤的問題這裡面搞不好還有貪污的問題超市到底算了多少錢我講如果委員認為有貪污問題我想盡可能可以從檢調單位來調查我覺得都可以但是它不是一個錯誤的政策"},{"start":554.406,"end":556.688,"text":"我本席跟我們的委員一直要求2022年中央續產會從日本專案進口雞蛋3081萬顆採購金額2億2502萬我們已經跟你手之手了兩個半夜了"},{"start":581.723,"end":605.391,"text":"我跟委員說明齁等下我先明確要求本席要求上開這個2020年日本專案進口雞蛋的採購廠商的名稱採購的數額採購的合約還有為何迴避國會監督已經兩個半列了包括一個禮拜內送到本席我跟委員說明齁合約的部分因為不是農業部訂的是續長會跟第三方訂的那我也請續長會因為合約的公開"},{"start":607.432,"end":634.849,"text":"要雙方都同意的時候我們也請市長會去問秉芳秉芳認為他是營業秘密所以我們沒辦法公開因為不是農業部簽約的是乙秉芳那乙秉芳有一方他不同意公開的話我們沒辦法公開總統市長會自己都是用我們的情緣來那個那我們現在立法院要求要公開你現在發不出來市長會本身是一個法人所有的廠商民間廠商都說話不會公開我們都沒辦法監督嗎"},{"start":636.147,"end":636.788,"text":"來,那個時間大了。"},{"start":643.611,"end":667.538,"text":"來時間到來來那個部長你私下再跟張委員回覆好不好我主席現在裁決嘛你就讓我講話嘛時間到我請部長私下再來跟張委員報告好不好那您的時間已經到了好不好很清楚的本席要的東西合法合理我主席就這樣裁決了嘛好不好大家都是合法合理來請回我們現在因為好啦等一下等一下"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}