{"error":false,"id":["152321"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":152321,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152321","日期":"2024-05-08","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-22-11","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第11次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":11,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[22],"委員會代碼:str":["教育及文化委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第11次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-05-08T11:00:52+08:00","結束時間":"2024-05-08T11:11:05+08:00","影片長度":"00:10:13","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9fa9bc2102b9cf714632ded8adf73f3e6811336f4541176936499d1b681a2ac7198a39e653668eca5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳春城","委員發言時間":"11:00:52 - 11:11:05","會議時間":"2024-05-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國立故宮博物院院長蕭宗煌列席就「回首百年放眼未來-故宮定位與部會級博物館公共責任總檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":526,"blocks":[["吳委員春城：（11時1分）謝謝。請蕭院長。"],["蕭院長宗煌：吳委員早！"],["吳委員春城：蕭院長好！"],["蕭院長宗煌：這個標題看起來就很恐怖！"],["吳委員春城：看起來就很恐怖！延續這個議題，當然我今天也看到很多人都在關心接下來故宮的走向，所以我想要瞭解一下，即將就職的賴政府，故宮的角色是什麼，繼續地弘揚中華文化，還是會降級為博物館？","上次（3月7日）我在跟院長對話的時候，其實我們有很多精彩的對話，但是可以看得到，最不政治化的院長其實非常政治化，你是政治高手，你所有的話都會避開政治的地雷。比如我問故宮的藏品是屬於我們國家的嗎？你的回答是當然是我們國家的，而且是屬於全世界的。這個第一句對，然後第二句就閃掉了。比如我再問中華文化是我們的嗎？院長就說，中華文化是臺灣文化非常重要的一部分，但是除了中華文化之外，我們還有各種文化，也要一併地重視。這都是院長很標準的回答，但是我可以看得出你的辛苦，我想在民進黨政府執政之下的故宮非常辛苦，我也為我們故宮的同仁叫屈！你們都是文化的專家，對這些事情的內涵，你們自有見解，你們非常地清楚，但是就像我們的院長一樣，你們要學會院長的功夫，不然你們的未來前途堪慮，處處都是威脅、處處都是地雷，這是肺腑之言啦！","還是問一下，院長，中華文化接下來還會是臺灣的重要文化嗎？上次你很肯定，現在你……"],["蕭院長宗煌：當然是、當然是……"],["吳委員春城：你覺得還是嘛！"],["蕭院長宗煌：中華文化是臺灣文化重要的內涵之一。"],["吳委員春城：內涵之一。"],["蕭院長宗煌：之一。"],["吳委員春城：之一，還是之二？好，不要太為難你。好啦！其實我們上次有非常深入地探討中華文化，在兩岸的關係之中，現在講的就是中華文化不是屬於廣義的中國文化，它是全世界人類的，這個說法有一點是你的錢就是大家的錢，我的錢是我的錢，你的錢也是我的錢……"],["蕭院長宗煌：這是世界文化遺產的概念，世界文化遺產的話……"],["吳委員春城：這是世界大同啦！這個很有世界大同……"],["蕭院長宗煌：對，基本上來講，是人類共同的，財產與資產是有一點點差異性。"],["吳委員春城：其實，我想最重要的是520即將上來的新政府怎麼看待故宮。最近因為新內閣有一個策勵營，今天很多人在問，大家突然發現院長沒有出席，所以大家就傳說故宮要降級了，為什麼會有這一些傳言？其實在2020年的時候行政院就有提出故宮的降級、隸屬於文化部這一些，說確實有在討論，原因就是故宮是一個文化傳承很重要的象徵，還是只是一個專業的博物館？如果只是一個專業博物館，列為部長級的閣員的確在世界上也是蠻奇怪的！請問院長，可能嗎？可能會歸屬於文化部嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：「傳故宮降級！政院擬改三級或獨立法人」的第一個字是「傳」，跟故宮的很多國寶作品一樣，寫「傳」的話，不一定就是真的。"],["吳委員春城：不一定是真的，但是你自己覺得呢？因為沒有出席嘛！"],["蕭院長宗煌：跟委員報告一下，沒有人正式約詢，也沒有人正式跟我討論這個事情，故宮內部也完全都沒有討論。"],["吳委員春城：好。那沒有出席搞不好是更好的事情，搞不好是升級，會不會？搞不好認為未來故宮要傳承更多的中華文化，中華文化成為臺灣的重要戰略，統戰大陸，以故宮出發，會不會有這種戰略的想法，所以要把故宮改隸屬總統府，有可能嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：這種臆測基本上來講是我沒有辦法想像的，因為傳過故宮改隸屬總統府，但是從來都沒有……"],["吳委員春城：所以到底是升級，還是降級？你自己覺得比較可能會發生的。"],["蕭院長宗煌：不是因為個人位置的問題、不是去留的問題，可是以目前故宮的狀況來講，保留現狀，讓它有一個穩定的發展過程的話，我覺得對故宮來講是比較有利的，因為現在在做工程，現在在做庫房的改造、空間的重新定位，還要改箱為櫃，接下來要盤點，如果我們去做變動比較大的組織改造的話，會比較不好。"],["吳委員春城：維持現狀、保持模糊，一中各表啦！反正就是這種模糊，但是問題是新政府不曉得願不願意這樣做。"],["蕭院長宗煌：我想故宮院長位置的去留是長官決定，整個故宮的定位，未來也是行政院決定，另外，它一定要經過大院審議通過，所以這個部分我只能做這樣的表示。"],["吳委員春城：我為什麼剛才說為故宮的同仁叫屈？就是你們真的會很辛苦，因為你想要做專業，但是樹欲靜而風不止，就是你要好好地做事情，但是沒有人要讓你好好做事情，所以你要做任何事情都動輒得咎，包括你的建築，這個會涉及到你自己的定位，故宮這個場地到底是一個展示文物的場所，還是一個藝術品的博物館，還是代表國家文化的象徵，還是純粹是一個大眾休閒的空間，院長覺得呢？"],["蕭院長宗煌：故宮這個建築其實已經變成是臺灣的一個地景，甚至地標，在全世界只要出現這樣一個畫面的話，大家都知道是國立故宮博物院，所以它代表臺灣的一個整體形象，我想這個是毋庸置疑的。"],["吳委員春城：好，謝謝。這個我們跳過去，因為最近有這些爭議，包括史博館的玻璃屋，故宮也研議在外面增建，各方有不同的看法，這部分院長接下來要怎麼做？因為有的人覺得你加任何東西就是想要去中化、要破壞這個，有的人就一直想要把它改變，讓它越來越國際化，你自己呢？"],["蕭院長宗煌：新舊融合中間增加一個新的入口門廊，當初在招標的時候有4家廠商、4家建築師，其中做了新的入口玻璃門廊的是得標的廠商，得標的廠商依採購就要去設計通過審議的案件。"],["吳委員春城：OK，我最後問一題，院長，你自己心裡希望是升格還是降格？降格有時候蠻好的，一旦降格以後就不要再吵這一些，大家好好做專業工作嘛！"],["蕭院長宗煌：降格還是沒有辦法避免這些問題，因為故宮是一個品牌，這個品牌帶給國立故宮博物院效益跟紅利，但是基本上來講，這個品牌也帶給故宮博物院一個歷史的糾葛跟牽絆，這個牽絆並不是降級就會免除的，我想這個部分是一個大歷史的過程，所以大家要慢慢去磨合。"],["吳委員春城：祝福院長一帆風順，謝謝。"],["蕭院長宗煌：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝吳春城委員。院長請回。","接下來請葉元之委員。"],["蕭院長宗煌：首先跟葉委員在這裡鄭重道歉，上次有失禮的地方請多多見諒。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":64,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-11","speakers":["林宜瑾","萬美玲","柯志恩","陳培瑜","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","張雅琳","吳沛憶","吳春城","葉元之","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","羅廷瑋","林倩綺","范雲","林楚茵","陳冠廷"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1134301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國立故宮博物院院長蕭宗煌列席就「回首百年放眼未來─ 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處處都是地雷這個肺腑之言"},{"start":153.257,"end":174.702,"text":"還是問一下,院長,中華文化接下來還會是臺灣的重要文化嗎?上次你很肯定,現在你會不會有點懷疑?當然是,當然是,中華文化是臺灣文化重要的內涵之一。內涵之一?之一,對。之一,還是之二?好,OK,不要太為難你。"},{"start":177.343,"end":199.26,"text":"那是中華文化其實我們上次有非常深入的探討這個文化其實在兩岸的關係之中現在講的就是說中華文化不是屬於廣義的中國的中華文化的那它是人類 全世界人類的"},{"start":203,"end":216.988,"text":"這個說法有一點是你的錢就是大家的錢我的錢是我的錢,你的錢也是我的錢世界文化遺產的概念世界文化遺產的話世界大同這個很有世界大同財產的話跟資產的話是有一點點差異性"},{"start":223.251,"end":251.414,"text":"基於這裡我想最重要的是我們即將520上來的新政府怎麼看待故宮那最近就因為有一個新內閣的撤離會今天很多人在問那就是大家突然發現院長你沒有出席所以大家就傳說故宮要降級了那為什麼要"},{"start":254.08,"end":273.538,"text":"為什麼會有這一些傳言?因為其實在2020年的時候行政院就提出故宮的降級、隸屬於文化部的這一些說確實有在討論那原因就是其實在這裡故宮是一個文化的傳承"},{"start":276.181,"end":291.7,"text":"很重要的象徵還是只是一個博物館一個專業的博物館因為如果只是一個專業博物館列為部長級的閣議員的確在世界上也是蠻奇怪的"},{"start":292.83,"end":315.527,"text":"那請問院長可能嗎?可能會被有這種歸屬於文化博物院我第一個傳故宮降級行政院已改三期獨立法人的第一個字是傳因為跟故宮的很多那個國寶作品一樣寫傳的話那不一定就是真的不一定就是真的但是你自己的覺得呢?"},{"start":316.067,"end":318.39,"text":"沒有見面沒有出席搞不好是更好的事情喔搞不好是升級喔"},{"start":334.095,"end":352.474,"text":"會不會搞不好就是這個認為未來故宮要傳承更多的中華文化戰略的文化成為台灣重要戰略統戰大陸所以呢以故宮出發會不會有這種戰略的想法然後所以呢要把故宮改曆屬總統府"},{"start":356.671,"end":365.453,"text":"有可能嗎?這種預測基本上來講的話是我沒有辦法想像因為傳說故宮隸屬過總統府但是從來都沒有你自己比較覺得可能會發生的"},{"start":374.175,"end":403.241,"text":"不是因為個人位置的問題不是氣流的問題可是以目前故宮的狀況來講的話保留現狀的話讓它有一個穩定的發展過程的話我覺得是比較對故宮來講比較有利的因為現在在做工程現在在做庫房的改造然後空間的重新定位然後還要改箱違規然後接下來要盤點如果我們去做比較變動比較大的組織改造的話會比較不好"},{"start":405.999,"end":432.897,"text":"維持現狀保持模糊一中各表反正就是這種模糊都很但是問題是新政府不曉得願不願意這樣做我想故宮院長的位置的棄由是長官決定那整個故宮的定位的話未來也是行政院決定那另外的話他一定要經過大院審議通過所以這個部分的話我只能做這樣的一個表示"},{"start":433.917,"end":458.85,"text":"這個當然就是因為這個的模糊為什麼說剛才為故宮的同仁教區就是說你們真的會很辛苦因為你想要做專業樹易盡而風不止就是你要好好的做事情但是沒有人要讓你好好做事情那所以你要做任何事情都動輒得咎那OK包括你的建築"},{"start":460.376,"end":460.956,"text":"院長覺得呢?"},{"start":482.421,"end":500.899,"text":"故宮這個建築其實它已經變成是臺灣的一個地景甚至地標在全世界的話只要出現這樣的一個畫面的話大家都知道是國立故宮博物院所以它代表臺灣的一個整體的形象我想這個是毋庸置疑的"},{"start":502.84,"end":522.65,"text":"好,謝謝,所以這個我們跳過去,因為最近有這些爭議,包死博款的玻璃屋,故宮也嚴厲在外面的一個伸展,大家各方有不同的看法,那這個院長接下來要怎麼做?"},{"start":523.977,"end":524.799,"text":"新舊融合"},{"start":539.258,"end":544.222,"text":"那我最後問一題就是院長你自己心裡你希望是升格還是降格"},{"start":569.602,"end":575.372,"text":"欸 降格有時候蠻好的喔一旦降格以後就不要再吵這些嘛大家好好做專業工作嘛"},{"start":576.317,"end":576.478,"text":"吳春城議員"},{"start":607.401,"end":608.845,"text":"祝福院長一帆風順"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}