{"error":false,"id":["152363"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":152363,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152363","日期":"2024-05-09","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-36-21","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第21次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":21,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第21次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-05-09T09:54:45+08:00","結束時間":"2024-05-09T10:08:16+08:00","影片長度":"00:13:31","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d554e30850cf792da5112455704fafcfb4f9ff50c8f2c18736499d1b681a2ac7ff736705a4ade47f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"09:54:45 - 10:08:16","會議時間":"2024-05-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請司法院、法務部及金融監督管理委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「強制執行保單解約償債未符比例原則紛爭頻傳亂象如何解」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於司法院及所屬主管預算凍結項目共8案。）","gazette":{"lineno":249,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（9時54分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生，有請司法院吳秘書長、法務部黃署長以及金管會施局長。"],["主席：請。"],["鍾委員佳濱：還有財團法人金融消費評議中心羅主委兼總經理。"],["主席：羅主委。"],["吳秘書長三龍：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：秘書長好、四位好。我想四位看起來都是慈眉善目，我很難得一開始在簡報之前講兩個真實的案例給大家聽一下。姑且稱之為張先生跟李太太，張先生年輕時做業務，中年投資失利，現在到了快退休的年紀，為債務所苦，常常跑法院，還好他年輕的時候兼差做過保險，幫自己存很多保單，但是大概是健康險、癌症險、壽險，儲蓄型當然就被強制執行、解約，他也就知道了。但是他現在發現早期的癌症，他的保單開始對他產生效果，結果保險公司理賠的金額被強制執行、查扣了，但他想說後續還有很多，所以他還借錢繼續繳保費。","第二個是李太太，先生早年沒有照顧家庭，都是他一個人操持帶小孩，他真的節儉到幫孩子買一些保單，但是因為先生在外面欠債，過世之後，人家告訴他要拋棄繼承，但是後來才發現他在不知情的情況下幫先生做連帶保證人，結果這個不良債權被資產公司拿去了，開始來追債，他自己的保單沒了，幫孩子買的保單也沒了，為什麼要講這兩個案例呢？因為今天這樣的一個質詢，我們立法院有直播，我的臉書也直播，有兩個廣播電臺的主持人，他們得到很多類似的案例，在我開記者會之後，大家跟他們求助，我說你們來看看今天在立法院的相關機關、民意代表怎麼幫這些數十萬潛在的受害人解決。我們目前的強制執行保單解約未符比例原則，就是殺雞取卵，是不是這樣子？秘書長，你殺了一隻雞，他的保單受益權那麼大，只取到一個解約金，你認不認同這句話？"],["吳秘書長三龍：就還是……"],["鍾委員佳濱：殺雞取卵嘛！但是苦了誰？不是苦了要保人、債務人，苦了法院，是不是？"],["吳秘書長三龍：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：21家保險公司其中2家在士林分院，19家在臺北分院，他們的案件量現在已經有三萬多件，對不對？被查詢的保單還有23萬件，是不是這樣子？"],["吳秘書長三龍：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這23萬件被債權人查詢的保單，謝謝保險局做得很好啊！人家可以查到我的債務人有多少保單，結果法院等於是殺雞取卵，殺雞也殺到手軟啦！可是誰受益？施局長，你覺得誰獲益？"],["施局長瓊華：報告委員，其實大家都是受害者。"],["鍾委員佳濱：其實債權人經過拍賣之後，他多少拿回一點啦！但是保險公司在某種程度上，無形中免除了後面這些保單，這都是後續將要開始執行理賠的保單，它就解除啦！它只拿出一些解約金，後面通通沒了。雞殺死之後，飼料大廠也很高興，因為養雞場的雞殺光光，雞蛋被人家抵債，結果我不用供應飼料也很開心，所以大法庭在2022年12月9號做成這個裁定。我們往下看，剛剛講的執行保單案例，他欠23萬，每年被收20%的高利，還債跟不上滾利，還要被扣保單。再往下看，我們看到強制執行已經發出8,100件，已經核發扣押命令、執行解約的八千多件，在扣押的3萬4,000件，聲請查詢的23萬件。理賠中的保單，也會被強制執行嗎？請問保險局，剛剛說的那個案例，他的健康險、癌症險理賠了，為什麼這個保戶還要繼續繳保費？"],["施局長瓊華：因為醫療險、健康險的部分有延續性。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，因為他早年買的保費比較低，他持續繳這個保單，但原本拿到的給付被扣了，對不對？"],["施局長瓊華：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：黃署長，我們繳納保險的目的是為了醫療保障，你認為在那個案例的情況之下，他不會因為欠錢、薪水被扣就不去上班，還是努力的工作，為什麼？因為我工作賺的錢只有三分之一會抵債嘛！是不是？如果我早年買的保單，現在統統拿去賠、去付給這個債務人，那你說我這個保戶這樣公不公平？你覺得應不應該？"],["黃署長玉垣：我認為他真的滿可憐的啦！"],["鍾委員佳濱：那有沒有辦法？可不可以有什麼救濟？"],["黃署長玉垣：法院的部分，我可能不方便……"],["鍾委員佳濱：來，秘書長，你認為法院要怎麼幫他？"],["吳秘書長三龍：因為法院當然還是回到儘量要符合比例原則。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是，這些案件我們看到潛在的有23萬件，法官個案裁量，累都累死了。我們看看，不論保單解約金多寡，一律強制執行，如果債務人他欠款是20萬，或者解約金額只有1萬塊，請問執行署，這種保障型的保單解約金少，而債務人為此失去了健康保險，有沒有符合比例原則？"],["黃署長玉垣：這就是我們目前開了幾次會，都儘可能的針對這部分用行政指導的方式，各分署對這部分會考量。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，所以你們要再進一步講，參考美國各州限定執行的範圍，根據強制執行法第一百二十二條：「為了保障民眾生活，債務人依法領取之社會保險給付不得為強制執行。」有沒有可能比照這個精神，社會保險是維持尊嚴生活所必須的，很多保障型保單也是要做保障損害的填補，是不是可以請司法院會同保險局、執行署，以保單類型、解約金為界，將部分保單排除在執行範圍外？請三位分別答復，保險局可以嗎？"],["施局長瓊華：報告委員，我們現在已經在做了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那執行署呢？"],["黃署長玉垣：只要保險法有規定，我們就配合辦理。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。秘書長，那誰來主催？你們來主導，誰來定？"],["吳秘書長三龍：所以今天這個專題報告非常有意義，透過這樣，我們一定會傾聽這種聲音……"],["鍾委員佳濱：是誰來定？保險局定？執行署定？還是司法院要定？誰要來定？"],["吳秘書長三龍：我們民事廳就這部分……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，民事廳，誰來定？"],["周廳長玫芳：因為有關於保單的強制執行，事實上法院的執行程序只是一個被動程序……"],["鍾委員佳濱：是，那我還是問你誰來制定？"],["周廳長玫芳：所以這個法如果要制定的話……"],["鍾委員佳濱：不是法，執行的標準、分類標準。"],["周廳長玫芳：執行標準應該在保險法裡面明定到底能不能……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們會修法，我是問你哪個單位來定？"],["周廳長玫芳：我想……"],["鍾委員佳濱：司法院會承諾你們找這兩個單位把這個標準定出來？"],["周廳長玫芳：我們會協助金管會……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們在推來推去，你們今天如果不講出來，不讓你們下臺，誰要負責？"],["施局長瓊華：報告委員，保險法的部分我們是會來定……"],["鍾委員佳濱：保險法是沒有錯，我們會來修。"],["施局長瓊華：參考原則的部分，我想我們會找壽險公會來擬出一個參考原則，但是……"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有，執行作業要點。司法院吳秘書長，你們有沒有一個刑事案件的分類執行作業要點？"],["吳秘書長三龍：向委員報告，我想政府是一體的，我看我們相關機關大家一起來協調看怎麼處理，這個一定要緊密的協調啦！"],["施局長瓊華：報告委員，因為這個部分應該還是要讓執行機關有一個參考原則，我們只能協助……"],["鍾委員佳濱：修法是保險局要處理，目前還沒修法前的執行作業要點，來，我念一個給你聽，我們先看一下這個格式，沒有統一的格式跟流程，公文往返就非常的耗時、耗力，要請壽險公司就個案一一的向法院確認扣押範圍，這是累死大家。所以我剛剛就說要你們來統一格式、流程，來降低執行法院的壓力，有沒有？好，我會後再給你們，因為你們有定了一個刑事案件的執行作業要點，是司法院定的，可不可以參照這個定出一個保單的執行跟解約的分類要點？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這個我想我們司法院會積極來協調。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我請問保險局，壽險主約遭強制執行，附約也一併失效，你們也報告了，那你們要怎麼防止主約被強制執行後，附約的健康險、醫療險都因而失效，你們有一個延約、續約的條款……"],["施局長瓊華：是，附約延續條款。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那怎麼做？現在保險公司怎麼做？"],["施局長瓊華：保險公司現在會主動把附約延續條款就加批上去了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，你們說有去關懷，提供附約延續條款，我要拜託保險局，保險公司最怕什麼？你們普惠金融的一些評鑑，納入你們普惠金融的檢查項目定期公告，可以嗎？"],["施局長瓊華：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。","所以目前尋求強制執行的保單已經有23萬件，來，評議中心主委兼總經理，目前你們有沒有收到保戶這樣的請求協助，他們認為有爭議，你們有沒有辦法協助他救濟？"],["羅評議主任委員兼總經理俊瑋：有這樣的案件，但是按照金融消費者保護法規定的話，這個不屬於金融消費爭議，所以……"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，我知道不是屬於金融，但是一般來講，他們只認得你們，很多保險爭議都是消費者，他說這個有爭議、被解約了，就找你。我要拜託你們一件事，真的是拜託，你們可不可以來幫忙做宣導？宣導什麼？你們要宣導這些保戶，如果遇到因為你是債務人，被強制執行，那我們來協助你，要跟法院、分署去提出異議，你們願意做這樣的宣導嗎？"],["羅評議主任委員兼總經理俊瑋：我們評議中心的工作本來就有在做教育宣導……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那我要請你幫忙，很清楚的，不管是透過電視臺、廣播電臺、網路，告訴大家這個事情，全臺灣有23萬個潛在的受害者，他們被債務公司查詢，知道他們有保單，要去聲請強制執行了，你們趕快去宣傳可以嗎？"],["羅評議主任委員兼總經理俊瑋：我們儘量做。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不是儘量做，請在一個月內提出你要怎麼做的方法給我。","最後因為時間的關係，請施局長，我有四大要求，第一個，以保單的類型、解約金為界，將部分保單排除在執行範圍內；甚至要執行的部分，也設定理賠金的扣押上限，這個部分請司法院會同保險局、執行署、壽險公會來做，可以嗎？都點頭，我當作你們都答應了喔！第二個，對於保單強制執行統一的格式、流程，訂定一個保單強制執行參考原則，一個月內提出書面報告，誰要提？"],["吳秘書長三龍：司法院會儘量來協調啦！"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是要有人提啊！你們不能三個和尚沒水喝啊！誰要提？"],["吳秘書長三龍：我們會儘量來……"],["鍾委員佳濱：那就司法院吳秘書長你來提，一個月內。"],["吳秘書長三龍：我們司法院會來處理，因為我們既然是重災區嘛！重災區我們當然……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好啦！廳長，我覺得這樣，秘書長願意承擔，我們……"],["周廳長玫芳：我們要先把它的壽險種類……因為我……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我瞭解，我都瞭解，施局長會幫你忙，但是最後誰要送來？"],["周廳長玫芳：全部都一個月，我們沒有辦法……"],["鍾委員佳濱：施局長，你一個月內給司法院可以嗎？"],["施局長瓊華：我們可以定參考原則給他們參考，一個月內可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，司法院拿到一個月內把書面報告提出來，可以嗎？這樣可以了吧？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這個當然我們會積極配合，因為我們是重災區嘛！"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果保險局在一個月內沒有給你們，整理這些保單商品的類型，責任就算在它；給了你們之後，一個月內把這個書面報告提出來，可以嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：我們一定會彙整啦！"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，一個月喔！"],["吳秘書長三龍：對，因為這個一定要趕快積極處理。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，保險局，將保險公司對遭強制執行保戶、提供附約延續條款，納入你們對保險公司普惠金融的檢查項目，定期公告，可以嗎？"],["施局長瓊華：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：金融消費評議中心，為了針對弱勢金融消費者，透過電臺、電視、網路，加強宣導保單，你們可不可以一個月內提出一個你們怎麼做的報告給我、給本委員會？"],["羅評議主任委員兼總經理俊瑋：就是做這種教育宣導，我們提出報告，但是像這種電視、電臺或……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們有沒有預算執行？"],["羅評議主任委員兼總經理俊瑋：我們這個預算可能不是那麼多……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我會幫你們去爭取，但是你們過去都只是被動地接受消費評議，我希望你們要主動地告訴消費者有哪些潛在的風險，可以嗎？"],["羅評議主任委員兼總經理俊瑋：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：最後，保險局，請儘速研議介入權入保險法，並於一個月內提書面研析報告，可以嗎？"],["施局長瓊華：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝鍾佳濱委員。"],["主席（鍾委員佳濱代）：請莊委員，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":122,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-21","speakers":["鍾佳濱","沈發惠","陳俊宇","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","林思銘","黃國昌","吳思瑤","鄭天財Sra 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對不對那如果我早年買的保單現在通通拿去賠去付這個債務人那你說我這個保護這樣公不公平應不應該你覺得"},{"start":331.138,"end":331.598,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":346.574,"end":365.975,"text":"發言當然還是要回復我們回到就是還是要盡量要符合比例原則啦是這些案件我們看到潛在的有23萬件法官個案裁量累都累死了我們看看齁如果部分保單的解約金多法律強制執行如果債務人他欠款是20萬那或者說解約金只有1萬塊"},{"start":367.296,"end":382.91,"text":"請問執行署這種保障型的保單解約金少而債務人因為此失去了健康保險有沒有符合比例原則?這就是我們目前開的幾次會我們都盡可能的針對這部分我們用行政指導的方式各分署對這部分會考量"},{"start":383.63,"end":411.523,"text":"所以你們要再進一步講參考美國各州限定執行的範圍根據強制執行法第122條為了保障民眾生活債務人依法領取之社會保險幾乎不得為強制執行有沒有可能秉照這個精神社會保險是維持生活所必須尊嚴的生活很多保障錢保單也是要做保障在損害的填補是不是可以請司法院匯從保險局執行署以保單類型解約金為借將部分保單排除在執行範圍外請三位分別答呼保險局可以嗎"},{"start":413.407,"end":433.485,"text":"發言委員我們現在已經在做了那執行署呢我們只要保險法有規定我們就配合辦理好那秘書秘書長那誰來主催你們再來主導所以今天誰來定今天這個專題報告非常有意義的透過這樣齁這個我們一定會傾聽是誰來定保險局定執行署定還是司法院來定"},{"start":434.708,"end":458.859,"text":"誰要來定因為有關於保單的強制執行事實上法院的執行程序只是一個被動程序所以這個法如果要制定的話執行標準應該在保險法裡面明定到底能不能我們會修法我是問你哪個單位來定"},{"start":462.4,"end":488.812,"text":"司法院委員承諾你們找這兩個單位把這個標準定出來我們會協助金管你們在推來推去你們今天如果不講出來不讓你們下台誰要負責?包委員保險法的部分我們是會來定那參考原則的部分我想我們會來找壽險公會來擬出一個參考原則執行作業要點司法院委員副秘書長你們有沒有一個刑事案件的分類執行作業要點?"},{"start":493.057,"end":502.246,"text":"我想政府是一體的啦這個我看我們相關機關大家一起來協調看怎麼處理啦這個一定要緊密的來協調啦緊密協調啦"},{"start":505.12,"end":532.024,"text":"報告委員因為這個部分是應該還是要讓執行機關有一個參考原則修法是保險局要處理目前還沒修法前的執行作業要點來我念一個案子給你聽我們先看一下這個格式沒有統一的格式跟流程公務員就非常的耗時耗力要請臭險公司就個案一一的向法院確認扣押範圍這是累死大家所以我剛剛就說要你們來統一格式流程來降低執行法院的壓力有沒有"},{"start":533.957,"end":545.389,"text":"我會後再給你們因為你們有訂了一個刑事案件的執行的一個作業要點是司法院訂的可不可以參照這個訂出一個保單的一個執行跟解約的分類要點這個我想我們說好會積極來協調會積極來協調"},{"start":550.394,"end":553.396,"text":"保險公司現在會主動把它復約延續條款就加批上去了"},{"start":575.973,"end":590.751,"text":"好,你們說有去關懷啦提供副業延續條款我要拜託保險局保險公司最怕什麼?你們普惠金融的一些評鑑納入你們普惠金融的檢查項目定期公告可以嗎?可以可以,好謝謝,下一頁"},{"start":592.052,"end":615.354,"text":"所以目前尋求的保單呢,強制的已經有23萬件喔來,評議中心,來,主委兼總經理目前你們有沒有受到保護這樣的一個請求,說啊協助他們認為有救濟,有爭議,你們有沒有辦法協助他救濟有這樣的案件有這樣的案件對,但是按照金融消費者保護法規定的話這個不屬於這個金融消費爭議,所以呢是的,我知道不是屬於金融,但是一般來講他們只認得你們"},{"start":617.042,"end":637.69,"text":"很多保險爭議的都是消費者,他說啊這個有爭議他會被解約他找你,我知道要拜託你們一件,正式拜託,你們可不可以來幫忙做宣導,宣導什麼?因為你們要宣導這些保護啊,說如果你們遇到的這個因為你是債務人被強制執行,那我們來協助你,要去跟法院跟分署去執行異議,你們願意做這樣的宣導嗎?"},{"start":639.581,"end":665.444,"text":"我們評議中心的工作本來就有在做教育訓練好那我要請你幫忙很清楚的不管是透過電視台、廣播電台、網路告訴這個事情全台灣有23萬個潛在的受害者他們即將他們被債務權公司查詢了知道他們有保單要進行申請強制執行了你們趕快的去宣傳可以嗎我們盡量做不是盡量做請在一個月內提出你們要怎麼做的方法給我"},{"start":666.552,"end":685.67,"text":"所以我在這裡最後因為時間的關係請司局長我這個四大要求第一個以保單的類型解約金為借將部分保單排除在執行範圍內甚至要執行的部分也設定禮賠金的扣押上限這個部分保險局執行署受選工會請司法院會同來做可以嗎都點頭啦我當作你們都答應了"},{"start":689.819,"end":697.447,"text":"第二、對於保單強制執行統一的格式流程,定定一個保單強制執行參考原則,一個月內提出書面報告,誰要提?"},{"start":700.046,"end":719.654,"text":"保單強制執行看好原則因為司法院會盡量來協調啦但是要有人提啊你們不能三個合上沒水喝啊誰要提我們會盡量來那就司法院吳秘書長你來提一個月內我們司法院會來處理啦因為我們既然是重災期嘛重災期我們當然好啦那個廳長我覺得這樣秘書長願意承擔我們抱歉"},{"start":722.415,"end":741.522,"text":"我們要先把那個受險他的受險種類我了解我都了解司局長會幫你忙但是你最後誰要送來來司局長你一個月給司法院可以嗎我們可以訂一個月內先給司法院好司法院拿到一個月把書面報告提出來可以嗎"},{"start":742.543,"end":769.992,"text":"這樣可以了吧這個當然我們要積極配合啦因為我們是重災區嘛那就是你們如果保險局在一個月內沒有給你們整理這些保單、商品的類型那就責任剩下他給了你們之後一個月內把這順便報告提出來可以嗎我們一定會費整啦一定會費整一個月內齁因為這個一定要趕快積極處理啊好保險局當保險公司照強制性的保護提供的覆約延續條款請納入你們對保險公司普惠金融檢查項目定型公告可以嗎可以好再下一頁"},{"start":770.672,"end":799.811,"text":"那金融消費評議中心為了針對金融消費的弱勢消費者透過電台、電視、網路加強宣導保單你們可不可以一個月提出一個你們怎麼做的報告給我給我們本委員會就是做這種教育宣導我們提出報告但是就是說像這種電視電台或你們有沒有預算執行欸這個我們這個預算可能不是那麼多我會幫你們去爭取但是你們過去都只是被動的接受消費評議我希望你們要主動的告訴消費者有哪些潛在的風險"},{"start":804.222,"end":806.648,"text":"請進入沿路介入全路保險法,一個人提出書面延期報告。"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}