{"error":false,"id":["152365"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":152365,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152365","日期":"2024-05-09","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-36-21","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第21次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":21,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第21次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-05-09T10:08:37+08:00","結束時間":"2024-05-09T10:19:59+08:00","影片長度":"00:11:22","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d554e30850cf792dc799e836ca502f3ab4f9ff50c8f2c18736499d1b681a2ac7d542c67c48412d045ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"10:08:37 - 10:19:59","會議時間":"2024-05-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請司法院、法務部及金融監督管理委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「強制執行保單解約償債未符比例原則紛爭頻傳亂象如何解」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於司法院及所屬主管預算凍結項目共8案。）","gazette":{"lineno":348,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（10時8分）謝謝主席，有請司法院秘書長。"],["主席：好，有請吳秘書長。"],["莊委員瑞雄：還有我們民事廳廳長。"],["主席：有請廳長。"],["莊委員瑞雄：保險局局長。"],["主席：好，施局長。"],["莊委員瑞雄：還有財團法人金融消費評議中心的羅總經理。"],["主席：請羅總經理。"],["莊委員瑞雄：秘書長、局長還有廳長。"],["吳秘書長三龍：委員好。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我來延續剛剛鍾佳濱委員的質詢，再來做一個追問，在強制執行法第一條其實就開宗明義的講，我們整個強制執行應依照公平合理的原則，兼顧債權人跟債務人及其他利害關係人的權益，還特別考量到、注意到其他利害關係人的權益。我們來看看，法官在做審判的時候，他當然沒有辦法去造法，可是你去看看歷來我們的審判，法官在做審判的時候，獨立在審判，但是所做出來的見解常常會所不一樣。剛剛這個問題，我們先來看2016年，我們法官沒有辦法造法，2016年臺灣高等法院座談會的研討意見跟審查意見裡面講到，壽險的保單責任準備金，所謂強制執行法裡面所談到的「責任財產」，就是他的財產、債權這些。壽險保單的責任準備金並不是債務人的責任財產的範圍，且法院不宜介入代為終止債務人所訂的壽險保單，人身保險是保險人的生存或死亡及身體健康，屬於被保險人的人格權，基於人身無價、某些生命保險兼具投資性、生命法益及身體健康法益，具有一身的專屬性等因素，應無代位權規定之適用。這是2016年臺灣高等法院做出來的，都是資深的法官，學有專精耶！你看看你們2022年最高法院大法庭所做出來的一個裁定，主文說執行法院在必要時，得執行命令終止債務人為要保人之人壽保險契約，命第三人償付解約金。兩個倒反了，見解就完全不同了吧？秘書長、廳長，對不對？"],["周廳長玫芳：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：接下來會衍生很多問題啦！"],["周廳長玫芳：委員，這一個部分，因為本來人壽保險的保單價值準備金，到底性質是不是具有一身專屬性，本來就有爭議……"],["莊委員瑞雄：是嘛！"],["周廳長玫芳：所以最高法院才會做108年台抗大字第897號裁定。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是。"],["周廳長玫芳：統一見解……"],["莊委員瑞雄：我要問的是這個效果就天下大亂了，是不是天下大亂？"],["周廳長玫芳：是，造成法院執行處的重大負擔。"],["莊委員瑞雄：喔！不是，我在意的不是法院的重大負擔，我在意的是保護這些老百姓，他們保險契約有很多附款耶！"],["周廳長玫芳：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你們想到的是造成法院好多的負擔！但我想到的是這些老百姓怎麼辦？"],["周廳長玫芳：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我們這些說司法獨立審判的法官，做出來這樣不同的見解，該怎麼辦？假設我今天欠局長錢，鍾佳濱是我的受益人，我欠局長錢，你給我強制執行了，你還說哇！莊瑞雄有一張保單在那個地方，你已經聲請強制執行了，以2016年臺灣高等法院是講不行，莊瑞雄那張有一身專屬性，嘿！鍾佳濱就在那邊高興了，他是收益人，他又拿得到了，你知不知道？你現在把它終止掉的話，現在不是只有……變成說把它當成是我責任財產的一部分，那就可以強制執行囉？強制執行以後，按照強制執行法第一條第二項，你這哪有公平？就會損及到相關關係人，受益人也是啊！"],["周廳長玫芳：是，委員說的對。"],["莊委員瑞雄：還不只咧！我這一張保險單裡面還有好多附款，包括我的傷害保險、健康保險，全部都沒了。我不相信只有臺灣會碰到這種狀況，世界各國都有保險商品，世界各國是怎麼處理的我們可以參酌嘛！所以剛剛你說叫保險局來定，保險局定不出來的啦！保險局哪會定這個？它一定要參照你們的想法嘛，秘書長，不是這樣子嗎？"],["周廳長玫芳：不，剛剛我們的意思是說保險局才知道保險契約的性質，哪一些東西有保單價值準備金、哪一些沒有，這些法院並不熟悉，所以必須要由保險局把這些釐清，我們才有辦法定一個執行的……"],["莊委員瑞雄：我們都學法律的不用互騙啦！責任準備金是保戶要保人或者被保險人，我一直繳繳繳到最後，責任準備金是大數法則耶，什麼人發生事故的時候是拿這些錢去賠的耶！2016年的這個我覺得是合理的，是我們臺灣高等法院，也是司法界的前輩做出來的，我覺得那是合理的啊！你現在最高法院的大法庭弄一個裁定出來以後，這樣對嗎？把它解約掉？解約金我繳100萬，叫我拿回來只剩40萬耶！三輸啦！法院你們也輸啦，你們很忙啦，又累啦！要保人、被保險人也輸啦，受益人輸啦，社會也大亂啦！一般保險裡面全部的附款都變成沒用了。所以，秘書長，這個其實真的是要好好的、儘速去把它解決啦！"],["吳秘書長三龍：感謝委員的提示，這個非常重要。政府本來實務就是要合乎時宜嘛，要情法理兼顧，我們跟今天相關出列席的機關，我們要協力啦！一定要協力，大家協調，司法院會盡力來協調。"],["莊委員瑞雄：這不要用說的，要用做的。大法庭的裁定裡面，我看到它的微言大義，倒是有一個地方指出一條明路，它講到目前我們沒有在強制執行程序裡面，採取像德國、歐盟那樣的介入權，譬如相關的利害關係人，我就可以來介入啦！鍾佳濱認為我是受益人，解約金拿回來剩40萬，他怎麼會要？他可以來介入說我來代繳啊！這也是一個方式啊！而我們的條文裡面，拜託一下局長你就要努力啦，各國的法制在這個部分可以去完備我們這一些受益人或者被保險人，整個體制就要讓它完備啊！不然像這個問題你要怎麼解決？","你說瑞士、德國、奧地利、日本，他們有這樣的一個立法例，在強制執行程序裡面，就可以有第三人相關關係人，他可以去做一個介入，我們應該也要往這樣的一個方向去，這個是最高法院的裁定裡面有講到這個啦！我相信既然有講到，你總不能把2016年法院自己座談會做出來的一個決議要法官來遵守，讓整個社會太平，然後後面又做出一個裁定，讓天下大亂！我想聽秘書長你的看法。"],["吳秘書長三龍：這個我們一定要積極面對，一定要積極面對來克服，我們相關的機關，司法院一定會儘量來協調，來積極面對啦！"],["莊委員瑞雄：強制執行只有一個概念啦！責任財產裡面，你雖然透過法院要保障當事人、債權人的權利，可是執行程序裡面，我們第一條就揭示公平、合理，跟最小侵害原則，難道不是這樣說嗎？你已經產生最大的一個侵害了，造成天下大亂，這種法我們還不趕快去修？全世界不是沒有這種案例，不是沒有這種法制啊！人家已經這麼完備了！所以像這個部分，我會覺得司法院責無旁貸，保險局也責無旁貸，都已經這麼久了，羅總經理，剛才鍾委員問你，你說二十幾萬件嘛？總共幾件？"],["羅評議主任委員兼總經理俊瑋：我們評議中心目前只收到11件這樣子的。"],["莊委員瑞雄：幾十件，你們怎麼處理？"],["羅評議主任委員兼總經理俊瑋：因為這個不是……"],["莊委員瑞雄：你們只有說：我們沒辦法。對不對？"],["羅評議主任委員兼總經理俊瑋：不是，我們這個不符合金融消費者……"],["莊委員瑞雄：是，當然嘛！所以你們就說沒辦法嘛！"],["羅評議主任委員兼總經理俊瑋：就不受理。"],["莊委員瑞雄：老百姓一定去了……但你說不受理嘛，局長，你剛才回答鍾委員23萬件？"],["施局長瓊華：對，那個是查詢跟執行的，到壽險公會……"],["莊委員瑞雄：我跟你說，黑數如果依我的算法，不知道要再比鍾佳濱委員說的多幾倍，還有受益人你沒有放進去啊！整個保險的相關關係人，你沒有放進去，不然這個數目更大囉！秘書長，難道不是這樣嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這個……"],["莊委員瑞雄：我要特別提醒，在我們保險實務上，常見的壽險保單裡面，除了這些主約以外，常常會有一些意外傷害，還有實支……我們整個醫療險或者長期照顧險的一些附約，局長你應該很清楚啦！你終止整個保險保單，然後取回解約金分配給債權人，保險的附款全部都終止掉，這樣當初大家在說的人身保險，我們讀的書不都白讀了？局長，你的看法？"],["施局長瓊華：是，委員，所以我們才會要求保險公司有一個附約延續條款，不能終止他的附約。"],["莊委員瑞雄：可是問題是附約終止條款，現在如果按照大法庭的一個見解，你們沒有去做一個修法的話，我終止掉錢都拿回來就已經解約啦？"],["施局長瓊華：除非他把附約也終止，如果只終止主約，那附約延續條款就可以產生效果。"],["莊委員瑞雄：沒有人介入，也都沒財產了，就沒人繼續繳了，勢必會產生連附約也一併終止掉嘛！所以我們加速好不好，秘書長跟局長？"],["施局長瓊華：好。"],["吳秘書長三龍：好。謝謝，我們一定會跟相關機關一起積極來面對這個問題，司法院會來協調啦！"],["莊委員瑞雄：不是只有什麼一個月交報告，要加速修法，國外的立法制，德國可以參考、奧地利可以參考、日本也可以參考啊，他們都有介入權的一個規定啊，好不好？"],["施局長瓊華：好。"],["莊委員瑞雄：謝謝。"],["吳秘書長三龍：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝秘書長、局長、總經理。接下來請林委員思銘質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":122,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-21","speakers":["鍾佳濱","沈發惠","陳俊宇","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","林思銘","黃國昌","吳思瑤","鄭天財Sra 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不是我在意的不是法院的重大負擔我在意的是這些保護這些老百姓他有很多保險契約有很多付款欸你們想到的是說噢造成法院好多的負擔我想到的是這些老百姓怎麼辦因為我們這些說司法獨立審判的法官造出做出來這樣不同的見解假設我今天"},{"start":220.56,"end":223.624,"text":"中央政府總預算關於司法院及所屬主管"},{"start":225.845,"end":230.869,"text":"我選擇你自己就強制執行啊你說哇!莊瑞雄有一張保單在那個地方你給他申請強制執行啊那以現在2016年台灣高等法院司講說不行莊瑞雄那個地方有一身專屬性總裁變成在那裡捉啊他受討厭他又站到了你知道嗎那你現在把它終止掉的話現在不是只有變成說把它當成是我的責任財產的一部分那就可以強制執行囉"},{"start":252.046,"end":274.581,"text":"那強制執行以後就按照強制執行法第1條第2項裡面說你這哪有公平就會損失一道相關關係人、受益人也是啊是是還不止咧還不止咧我這一張保險單裡面我還有好多付款啊包括我的傷害保險啊健康保險啊全部都沒有了我不相信只有台灣會碰到這種狀況全世界各國都有保險商品啊"},{"start":279.158,"end":279.458,"text":"我們才有辦法定一個"},{"start":309.322,"end":315.548,"text":"責任準備金是說我的保護我要保人或者說我被保險人我一直繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳"},{"start":330.458,"end":341.183,"text":"也是我們台灣高等法院也是我們司法界的賢敗做出來的我覺得那是合理的啊那你現在把最高法院的那個大法庭把它給弄一個裁定出來以後這樣對不對把它解約掉解約金我繳100萬繳起來才剩40萬三輸啦法院你們也輸啦你們很忙啦又累啦"},{"start":354.363,"end":358.684,"text":"感謝委員的提示這個非常重要政府本來就應該要實務就是要合乎時宜要情話裡兼顧"},{"start":383.01,"end":405.109,"text":"那我們跟今天我們相關這個初類型的機關我們要協力啦一定要協力大家協調喔司法院會來盡力來協調大法庭裏面的裁定裏面我去看到他的危言大義到有一個地方他指出一條明路啦他去講到說"},{"start":407.304,"end":426.817,"text":"目前我們沒有強制執行程序裏面採取像德國、歐盟那樣的介入權那我的像比如說相關的利害關係人我就可以來介入啦總部下面認為說欸我是受益人捏捷軍客只剩四十萬他才要賣他可以來介入他說來啊我來帶腳啊這是一個方式啊那我們的條文裏面拜託欸這個局長你很努力啦"},{"start":435.717,"end":463.957,"text":"各國的法制這個部分可以去完備我們這些受益人或者被保險人整個體制要讓他完備阿阿不然你像這個問題你要怎麼解管你說瑞士你說德國奧地利日本他們有這樣的一個立法力強制執行程序裡面就可以有第三人相關相當的關係人他可以去做一個介入那我們應該也要往這樣的一個方向去這個是最高法院的裁定裡面有去講到這個啦"},{"start":464.918,"end":477.552,"text":"那我相信啊,既然有去講到,你總不能只有把2016年你法院自己做出來的一個座談會的一個決議要法官來遵守,然後讓整個社會太平,那你後面又做出一個裁定,讓社會天下大亂。"},{"start":480.406,"end":507.707,"text":"請秘書長你的看法這個我們一定要積極面對啦一定要積極面對來克服我們相關的機關說法院一定會盡量來協調來積極面對強制執行只有一個概念這個責任財產裡面你雖然透過法院要保上當事人債權人的權利可是這個執行程序裡面我們第一條就揭示公平合理跟最小侵害原則"},{"start":509.045,"end":509.505,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算"},{"start":525.939,"end":537.527,"text":"我會覺得啊司法院這邊責無旁貸保險局家也責無旁貸這已經太久了勒羅總經理剛才總委人家講你講20幾萬件齁都講幾件我們便宜中心目前只收到11件這樣啊幾十件你怎麼處理因為這個不是你只說我們沒那麼多對不對我們這個不符合我們這個金融消費者法規是當然嘛所以你只說沒那麼多嘛"},{"start":553.837,"end":556.498,"text":"對,就是那個是查詢跟執行的到所協工會還有受益人你沒有放進去啊整個保險的相關關係人你沒有放進去啦不然這個數目更大囉"},{"start":580.243,"end":589.851,"text":"我特別提醒就是說在我們保險實務上常見的受險我們保單裡面你除了這些組約以外你常常會有一些意外傷害還有實質我們整個醫療險或者長期的一個照顧險的這些覆約局長你應該很清楚你把這個終止整個保險保單然後取回解約金分配給債權人然後保險的付款全部都終止掉"},{"start":610.835,"end":629.537,"text":"當初大家在說人身保險我們託的錢都被託了,你怎麼看?是,所以我們才會要求保險公司有一個覆約延續條款,不能終止他的覆約可是問題是說覆約終止條款,你現在如果按照大法庭的一個見解的話"},{"start":630.418,"end":630.938,"text":"所以我們加速好不好,秘書長跟局長"},{"start":655.289,"end":676.942,"text":"謝謝我們一定會跟相關機關一起來來積極來面對這個問題的司法院會來協調不是不是只有什麼一個月交報告啦要加速修法啦國外的立法制德國可以參考澳國可以參考連奧地利可以參考日本也可以參考啊他們都有介入權的一個規定啊好不好好謝謝謝謝謝謝好謝謝民主黨局長總經理"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}