{"error":false,"id":["152368"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":152368,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152368","日期":"2024-05-09","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-36-21","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第21次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":21,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第21次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-05-09T10:20:04+08:00","結束時間":"2024-05-09T10:31:27+08:00","影片長度":"00:11:23","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d554e30850cf792d6ab514a580e7792fb4f9ff50c8f2c18736499d1b681a2ac71bdf61f3f9847d925ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林思銘","委員發言時間":"10:20:04 - 10:31:27","會議時間":"2024-05-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請司法院、法務部及金融監督管理委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「強制執行保單解約償債未符比例原則紛爭頻傳亂象如何解」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於司法院及所屬主管預算凍結項目共8案。）","gazette":{"lineno":405,"blocks":[["林委員思銘：（10時20分）謝謝主席，請秘書長。"],["主席：有請秘書長。"],["吳秘書長三龍：委員好。"],["林委員思銘：秘書長好，我想今天大家都非常關心司法院裁定下來所造成的整個衝擊，甚至我們召委說這真的是一個災難。我想最高法院108年台抗大字第897號所造成的整個影響真的叫做茲事體大。首先我們看新收案件到112年高達193萬件，也就是將近的200萬件，所以我首先請問秘書長，到底各地的民事執行處尤其是士林跟臺北地方法院執行處，新收這200萬個案件如何來消化？司法院如何來因應這麼大的案件量？"],["吳秘書長三龍：因為突然增加這麼多，我們一定要緊急應變。"],["林委員思銘：所以同仁的健康權你要怎麼保障？我們前一陣子才一直在關心這些同仁的身心健康保障，結果因為這一個裁定，新收案件突然爆增這麼多，剛剛召委講，司法院你要趕快做出相關的行政指導、做出相關的指引，有沒有在做？"],["吳秘書長三龍：我們一定會儘速積極來面對。"],["林委員思銘：你發覺問題了嘛，大家都發覺這個問題了嘛，到底要怎麼做？"],["吳秘書長三龍：就是像臺北地院那邊，我們就緊急新增7個執行股，書記官增加7人、執達員7人、司法事務官5人，包括委外人力也增加了17人，相關辦公室也都趕快增設。"],["林委員思銘：所以增加這麼多人力，就是要去處理這方面的案件？"],["吳秘書長三龍：一定要克服啊。"],["林委員思銘：所以，秘書長，這當然是治標，但是如何治本？我先來就教一下，秘書長，這個裁定：「執行法院於必要時，得核發執行命令終止債務人為要保人之人壽保險契約。」何謂「必要時」？秘書長！我想你本人也當過我們的司法官，德高望重，何謂「必要時」？這麼不確定的法律概念，我們大法庭這些法官在他的裁定裡面講「必要時」，何謂「必要時」？我真的搞不懂何謂「必要時」。"],["吳秘書長三龍：所以實務上的運作一定要情法理兼顧，合乎時宜來面對。"],["林委員思銘：所以就把這個「必要時」的認定交給我們民事執行處的法官、書記官及相關人員，是不是？"],["吳秘書長三龍：所以目前必要的一些因應這樣一個可以說是「重災區」的作為，司法院一定要趕快，今天也很感謝有這樣一個專題報告，相關機關都有出列席，我們也會儘速來協助。"],["林委員思銘：秘書長，我看那個裁定的意旨，好像論理言之鑿鑿，好像很有理由，說「應依公平合理之原則，兼顧債權人、債務人及其他利害關係人權益，以適當之方法為之，不得逾越達成執行目的之必要限度，並宜先賦與債權人、債務人或利害關係人陳述意見之機會」，秘書長，我想我們都曾經在實務上打滾過啦，我們的執行處有這個量能叫債權人、債務人來說：「你們兩個談談看，你們陳述一下你們的意見。」我們在實務上真的有這個量能去做嗎？這些大法庭的法官們，把這樣一個裁定意旨寫一寫，說這樣就是必要性原則，叫我們的民事執行處法官要去參酌，你們在執行的時候要去考量這些因子，你覺得有可能嗎？請問秘書長，以您的實務經驗，我們這些民事執行處的人員有辦法實質去認定這符不符合必要性嗎？聽聽兩造的解釋就可以認定，然後有可能每一個案子都叫兩造來問嗎？有這個量能嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：所以在司法行政我們能著力的，一定會來處理啦。"],["林委員思銘：很困難嘛，所以對這個裁定，我想很多人都有意見啦，只是因為一個裁定造成這麼大的一個災難，三輸啦！剛才莊瑞雄委員也講這造成三輸。我也看到金管會的報告中寫到，實務執行面所面臨的問題為健康險還有傷害保險被執行影響的基本保障，所以前開民事大法庭的裁定主要是針對人壽保險契約的解約金為之，唯實務上、執行上已擴及健康保險及傷害保險，所以我想請問秘書長，現在我們司法實務上對於這種已擴及的健康保險及傷害保險，我們要如何補救？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這一部分我們民事廳也有……"],["林委員思銘：好，請廳長。"],["周廳長玫芳：謝謝委員，關於這個壽險契約，我們在強制執行的時候會先去確認它到底是投資型或是純粹的壽險，還是有附加其他的保險，我們會審酌。因為我們的標準，剛剛委員有指教，如果從強制執行法第一條跟第一百二十二條來看，看似不是一個明確的準則，但事實上、在實務運作上一般來說沒有其他的問題，司法事務官的專業能力也毋庸置疑，所以在審酌上沒有問題，那我們還透過很多的程序來達到平衡利害關係人……"],["林委員思銘：是，廳長，我打斷你一下，因為現在裁定是針對人壽險這個標的，但是現在我看金管會說這個有擴大到傷害險及健康險，所以傷害險及健康險的保單也可以作為執行標的喔？"],["周廳長玫芳：不是這樣子的，就是台抗大第897號裁定只針對壽險，沒有……"],["林委員思銘：沒有針對傷害險及健康險。"],["周廳長玫芳：和醫療險，它沒有做裁定，就是它的裁定是有限制的。"],["林委員思銘：好，您現在講沒有嘛。","我請金管會保險局施局長，我看你在報告裡面寫到，這個會擴大到傷害險及健康保險的保單，這部分剛才司法院跟我講不會，但你說會擴及。"],["施局長瓊華：實務上我們確實有聽到業者的反映，確實有一些健康險被強制執行，因為健康險有一年期的跟長期的保單。"],["林委員思銘：是，尤其是癌症險，癌症的保單非常重要，但是癌症的保單也被作為強制執行的標的。司法院，你看你們兩個說法不一樣欸！"],["周廳長玫芳：對不起，這可能是因為他在主約有綁約定，使得主約終止以後……"],["林委員思銘：附約就一起被終止。"],["周廳長玫芳：對。"],["林委員思銘：如果是單純的、不是人壽險的附約，這部分執行法院可以去執行嗎？"],["周廳長玫芳：其實這一個部分，我們通常不會這樣做，因為法院在考量的時候，我們針對……"],["林委員思銘：廳長，您講不會，其實我可以告訴你，執行處真的沒有這個量能去做判斷，只要人家去執行，他馬上就給他查封了，馬上就給他終止了啦！"],["周廳長玫芳：健康險和醫療險通常都不會有所謂的解約金，所以……"],["林委員思銘：今天您這樣講，我希望您責成各地方法院的民事執行處，未來對於這種不是附約的健康險還有傷害保險，不能作為執行的標的啦，要定出很明確的指引。","最後我再問一下，我最近也接到一個陳情案件，就是保險要保人是父親，被保險人是其配偶跟子女，繳了二十幾年的保單，爸爸辛辛苦苦工作為他的子女保了一個人壽保險，還沒有到期，但是今天突然間就被解約，這個爸爸哭著跟我講，他說這個是他為子女買的一個保障，結果現在被你們終止了，他的孩子就失去保障了，他的老婆也是，未來萬一發生什麼事情，完全失去我們保險的一個保障，這讓他情何以堪哪！哭著跟我講。所以我在講，一個裁定造成社會這麼大的影響。因此對於要保人跟被保險人不同的這種保單，未來是不是可以思考，就是這種保單我們在執行上面要特別地注意，可不可以把它排除啦？我這樣講好了，要保人跟被保險人不一樣的話，可不可以排除，就是可以不被執行？可不可以？這種類型的，請保險局，可以嗎？"],["施局長瓊華：這個部分可能要看看大家的共識，確實契約非常地複雜……"],["林委員思銘：是啊！保險種類非常多。"],["施局長瓊華：對。"],["林委員思銘：所以這個我就提出來，你就講了……這就造成人間悲劇啊！"],["施局長瓊華：是。"],["林委員思銘：萬一他的太太真的得到癌症，這個保障又沒了啊！怎麼辦？"],["施局長瓊華：我們會跟公會討論一下細節。"],["林委員思銘：很多很多種保單的類型都不一樣。"],["施局長瓊華：是。"],["林委員思銘：另外您講到附約，延續附約的這些相關議題也是一樣，未來假設附約要延續，那他的保費要不要增加？"],["施局長瓊華：不用。"],["林委員思銘：都不用嘛？"],["施局長瓊華：嗯，照他原來的……"],["林委員思銘：是，我想相關的指引真的要趕快訂出來。"],["施局長瓊華：是。"],["林委員思銘：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝秘書長、局長。接下來請黃委員國昌質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":122,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-21","speakers":["鍾佳濱","沈發惠","陳俊宇","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","林思銘","黃國昌","吳思瑤","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","林楚茵","羅智強","李坤城","吳宗憲","黃珊珊","傅崐萁","翁曉玲"],"page_start":65,"meetingDate":["2024-05-09"],"gazette_id":"1134301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請司法院、法務部及金融監督管理委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「強制執行保單解約償債\n未符比例原則紛爭頻傳亂象如何解」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、處理113年度中央政府總預\n算關於司法院及所屬主管預算凍結項目共8案","agenda_id":"1134301_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.79784375,"end":9.227843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.801593750000002,"end":10.594718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.73346875,"end":23.723468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.40846875,"end":14.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.94284375,"end":27.722843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.33034375,"end":37.35846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.69596875,"end":40.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.93596875,"end":51.195968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.78659375,"end":56.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.38909375,"end":62.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.126593750000005,"end":66.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.02909375,"end":67.05846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.53096875,"end":69.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.47159375000001,"end":73.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.12534375,"end":71.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.79159375,"end":89.23221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.59909375000001,"end":98.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.22659375,"end":99.23909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.50909375,"end":107.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.24284375,"end":102.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.57096875,"end":109.14471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.21221875,"end":109.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.29659375000001,"end":130.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.46034375,"end":114.98346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.44284375000001,"end":118.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.29409375,"end":125.78346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.17096875000001,"end":142.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.07284375,"end":138.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.11409375,"end":154.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.85471875000002,"end":157.47471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.57159375,"end":162.97596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.00971875000002,"end":164.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.22034375,"end":168.00471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.42659375000002,"end":169.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.50659375,"end":177.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.99471875,"end":178.01159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.85096875000002,"end":187.36034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.06096875,"end":194.19471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.39284375000003,"end":197.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.60346875000002,"end":198.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.00409375,"end":204.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.42971875,"end":202.98659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.16346875000002,"end":210.49596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.12034375000002,"end":216.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.30534375000002,"end":215.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.26721875,"end":240.97221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.47846875000002,"end":246.60846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.23284375000003,"end":257.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.83034375,"end":262.63971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.19221875,"end":281.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.38346875,"end":292.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.76159375000003,"end":296.00159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.27159375,"end":301.67159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.86971875,"end":302.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.95409375,"end":302.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.98784375,"end":303.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.19034375,"end":303.20721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.20721875000004,"end":303.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.24096875000004,"end":309.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.30784375,"end":308.20221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.97409375,"end":323.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.03096875,"end":356.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.81909375000004,"end":361.00409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.37534375,"end":364.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.29471875,"end":365.50971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.56034375,"end":365.57721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":365.57721875000004,"end":365.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","star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秘書長這個當然是一個治標啦但是如何治本如何治本其實我先來救教秘書長一下喔秘書長我想這個裁定啦講說執行法願於必要時得核發執行命令終止債務人為要保人的人壽保險契約何謂必要時啊"},{"start":158.775,"end":177.503,"text":"副處長,我想你本人也當過我們的司法官得高望重何謂必要時,這麼不確定的法律概念我們的大法庭的這些法官在他的一個裁定裡面講必要時何謂必要時,我真的搞不懂,何謂必要時"},{"start":179.918,"end":184.8,"text":"所以把這個必要時的認定就交給我們民事執行處的法官、書記官以及相關的人員是不是?"},{"start":195.484,"end":208.12,"text":"所以必要的一些有一些目前應驗這樣的一個重災可以說是重災區司法院一定要趕快今天也也很感謝有這樣一個專題我們相關的"},{"start":211.084,"end":241.084,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":241.544,"end":249.608,"text":"因為我想我們都在實務上曾經打滾過了我們的執行處有這個量能叫債權人、債務人來講說你們兩個談談看你們扯出一下你們的意見我們能去這個真的在實務上有這個量能去做嗎"},{"start":264.229,"end":281.325,"text":"大法這些大法庭的法官們你把這樣的一個裁定意旨說你寫一寫說這樣就是必要性的一個原則叫我們的民事執行處的法官你們要去參酌你們要在這個執行的時候要去考量這些因子你覺得有可能嗎"},{"start":282.466,"end":299.296,"text":"只問移民的實務經驗我們這些民事支援處的人員有辦法實質去認定說這符不符合必要性啊聽聽兩兆的解釋就可以去認定然後有可能叫兩兆每一個案子都叫兩兆來問嗎有這個量能嗎"},{"start":303.438,"end":322.464,"text":"所以在司法行政我們能著力的一定會很困難嘛就因為我對這個裁定我想很多人都有意見只是因為一個裁定造成這麼大的一個災難三書啦剛才我們莊惠雄也講造成三書啦"},{"start":324.093,"end":350.061,"text":"那我也看到這個金管會的一個報告報告中寫到說我們實務執行面所面臨的問題為健康險還有我們的傷害保險被執行影響的基本保障所以前開民事大法庭的裁定主要是針對人壽保險契約的解約金為之為實務上執行上已擴及健康保險及傷害保險"},{"start":351.121,"end":364.343,"text":"所以我想請問民主黨現在是我們司法實務上對於這種這個以擴及的健康保險及傷害保險我們要如何補救這一部分我們民視聽也有相當的好請聽長"},{"start":366.953,"end":380.782,"text":"謝謝委員那關於這個受險契約我們在強制執行的時候會先去確認他到底是投資型或者是純粹的受險或者有附加其他的保險我們會審酌那因為我們的標準"},{"start":384.724,"end":408.575,"text":"剛剛委員有指教如果從強制執行法第一條跟強制執行法122條看似不是一個明確的準則但事實上在實務運作上普通是沒有其他的問題司法事務官的專業能力也無庸置疑所以在審酌上沒有問題那我們還透過很多的程序來達到"},{"start":410.576,"end":427.982,"text":"所以聽一下我打斷你一下就是說因為現在裁定是針對人壽險這個標的嘛但是現在我看監管會講說這個有擴大到傷害險以及健康險所以他這個對傷害的傷害險及健康險的保單也可以作為執行標的喔"},{"start":429.459,"end":453.336,"text":"不是這樣子的,就是說我們的臺康大的這個897號裁定,它只針對受險,其實它沒有針對傷害跟醫療險這些,它沒有做裁定,是,我們的,就是說它的裁定是有限制的。您現在講沒有嘛,那個,局長,我請今晚回號,管理局我們司局長。"},{"start":458.14,"end":487.219,"text":"市長,我看你的報告裡面寫說這個會擴大到我們的傷害險以及健康保險的保單這部分,因為剛才司法院跟我講不會啊你寫說會擴及啊市長,我們確實有聽到業者的反應確實有一些健康險有被強制執行所以我們的健康險裡面有一年期的跟長期的保單是,尤其是癌症險嘛,我想剛才稍微講說尤其是癌症的保單"},{"start":488.44,"end":513.399,"text":"這個非常重要啊但是你癌症的保單也作為強制執行的標的這個司法院你看你們兩個說法不一樣欸對不起這可能是因為他在主約有綁約定所以使得主約終止以後復約復約就一起被終止那如果是單純的這個不是人受險的復約這部分執行法院可以去執行他嗎"},{"start":514.599,"end":542.313,"text":"其實這個部分我們通常不會這樣做因為其實法院在考量的時候我們真的強制執行其實那個 廷長您講不會啦其實我可以告訴你執行處真的沒有這個量能去做判斷只要人家去執行他就馬上就給他查封了啦就馬上就給他終止了啦健康險跟這種醫療險通常都不會有所謂的解約金今天您這樣講我希望您責成真的喔未來各地方法院的民事執行處"},{"start":543.567,"end":572.987,"text":"對於這種不是赴約的健康險還有傷害保險不能給他去做這個作為執行的標的要訂出很明確的指引再來最後我再問一下我最近也接到一個陳情案件就是說保險邀保人是他父親被保險人是配偶跟子女繳了20幾年的保單爸爸辛辛苦苦工作為他的子女保了一個人壽保險還沒有到期"},{"start":573.647,"end":595.713,"text":"但是今天突然間就被解約啊這個爸爸哭著跟我講他說這個是我為子女的一個保障耶結果現在就被你們終止了我的孩子就沒有保障失去保障了我的老婆也是未來萬一發生什麼事情啊完全失去我們保險的一個保障"},{"start":597.18,"end":605.271,"text":"這讓他情何以堪啊?哭著跟我講啊!所以我會講說一個裁定造成這麼大的社會的一個影響"},{"start":606.778,"end":631.244,"text":"所以對於這種邀保人跟被保險人不同的這種保單未來是不是可以去思考就是說這種保單我們在執行上面要特別的去注意可不可以把它排除我這樣講好了邀保人跟被保險人不一樣的話可不可以排除就是可以不被執行可不可以"},{"start":633.694,"end":655.572,"text":"這種類型的那請那個保安局啊這個部分可能要看看大家的共識啊確實契約非常的複雜是啊所以你保險種類非常多啊所以這個我就提出來你就講這個就造成人間悲劇啊萬一他的太太真的得到癌症啊這保障又沒了啊"},{"start":656.547,"end":656.587,"text":"主席"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}