{"error":false,"id":["152370"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":152370,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152370","日期":"2024-05-09","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-36-21","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第21次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":21,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第21次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-05-09T10:31:34+08:00","結束時間":"2024-05-09T10:43:43+08:00","影片長度":"00:12:09","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d554e30850cf792d69711e9fdb38f250b4f9ff50c8f2c18736499d1b681a2ac7462de921938ebd285ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"10:31:34 - 10:43:43","會議時間":"2024-05-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請司法院、法務部及金融監督管理委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「強制執行保單解約償債未符比例原則紛爭頻傳亂象如何解」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於司法院及所屬主管預算凍結項目共8案。）","gazette":{"lineno":460,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（10時31分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請司法院秘書長，以及法務部，今天是法律事務司，請司長好了。"],["主席：有請吳秘書長跟法務部劉司長。"],["吳秘書長三龍：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：兩位好，不一一問候。上一次4月24日質詢的時候，我們處理到有關於現在法院因為案件量大增，司法院提出非常多的要求，希望立法院這邊支援你們五千多位新的員額，這個我們等一下再說。那天在質詢的時候，我已經清楚地秀出來了，地方法院民事強制執行事件收案的數量不斷暴增，到2023年已經到一百八十幾萬件。當中特定的法院強制執行未終結的案件堆積如山，暴漲的數字從以前的大概七萬件，現在已經十四萬件多，幾乎是兩倍的數額。那天在質詢我請教秘書長說，針對堆積如山的案件，你們到底做了什麼，這件事情可不可以會後提書面報告給全體的委員，你說可以嘛！請問那個報告在哪裡？"],["吳秘書長三龍：委員是提到5,536人那個人力的分配還是……"],["黃委員國昌：不是啊！我們4月24日詢答的內容您都忘了嗎？你看一下PPT，refresh your memory、看一下，那一天我問你，強制執行的案件堆積如山，司法院做了什麼？然後你說會後會提供書面報告給大家。因為我那天質詢的時候，你開始跟我扯啊！扯說提報了司法人員特考需用名額，那個是未來的事情。強制執行的案件堆積如山，影響到了非常多債權人、債務人的權益，造成第一線執行科的書記官，還有很多工作同仁的工作負擔，大家都快要爆肝了。我那天具體的問題是司法院做了什麼，你那天答不出來，我請你會後交書面，書面在哪裡？"],["吳秘書長三龍：我們實際上就是，在臺北地院執行處有增加7個執行股，包括有書記官7個人、執達員7個人、司法事務官5個人……"],["黃委員國昌：先停一下。"],["吳秘書長三龍：另外也增加委外……"],["黃委員國昌：秘書長，請你聽問題好嗎？第一個，我剛剛問你的是書面在哪裡？"],["吳秘書長三龍：書面的話，委員這邊，因為我們整理書面也要時間，有必要我們會馬上提供出來。"],["黃委員國昌：所以你還需要多久？當初是你要求用書面跟我們回復，結果你今天跟大家講，如果有必要你會提供，司法院的態度是這樣嗎？我不敢相信耶！"],["吳秘書長三龍：我們會儘量來配合。儘量配合。"],["黃委員國昌：對，那你什麼時候要提供？"],["吳秘書長三龍：假如委員……"],["黃委員國昌：你也太離譜了吧！"],["吳秘書長三龍：委員有需要，我們會隨時……"],["黃委員國昌：什麼叫做我「有需要」！你看一下你上次答詢的內容，好不好？"],["吳秘書長三龍：那我們也要……"],["黃委員國昌：是你自己說要給書面耶！"],["吳秘書長三龍：那我們也要準備的時間啊！"],["黃委員國昌：對，所以我剛剛問你嘛！你需要多少時間嘛？"],["吳秘書長三龍：1個禮拜之內提出來。"],["黃委員國昌：1個禮拜之內！上次質詢是幾月幾號？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這個……"],["黃委員國昌：是幾月幾號？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這個總是要彙整啊！"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛……"],["吳秘書長三龍：總是要彙整。"],["黃委員國昌：所以我說你需要多少時間？上次是4月24日，你剛剛說需要1個禮拜，我問你東西在哪裡？"],["吳秘書長三龍：我們彙整出來，有需要我們會提供出來啊！"],["黃委員國昌：對不起，你這樣的回答我無法接受！當初是你自己開口說你要用書面回的喔！"],["吳秘書長三龍：書面回答……"],["黃委員國昌：結果你今天跟大家講，有需要你們會提供。你什麼態度啊！"],["吳秘書長三龍：沒有，書面我們當然會提供出來。"],["黃委員國昌：什麼時候提供？"],["吳秘書長三龍：剛剛不是講1個禮拜之內，我們……"],["黃委員國昌：從什麼時候開始算1個禮拜？"],["吳秘書長三龍：從今天回去……"],["黃委員國昌：好，從今天開始算1個禮拜。剛剛你說你有新增執行股，什麼時候新增的？"],["吳秘書長三龍：那就是因應這個需要……"],["黃委員國昌：什麼時候新增的？"],["吳秘書長三龍：那個……就已經都新增了。"],["黃委員國昌：什麼時候新增的？"],["周廳長玫芳：在4月的時候。"],["黃委員國昌：4月的時候才新增！來，看一下，回去看這個數字，我就是問你們過去這一、兩年做了什麼，結果今天在這邊說新增執行股，搞了半天，什麼時候新增的？2024年的4月喔！沒有關係，民事執行處有很多案件啦！有保險的、有非保險的，各式各類強制執行的案件，我上次質詢你們的時候是點出這個問題耶！點出這個問題的時候，我收到非常多民事執行處的工作同仁說謝謝，終於有立委幫他們講出這個問題了。我問你之前做了什麼，你說要用書面，到現在書面沒拿到，你說你還要1個禮拜；你今天在委員會說你有新增執行股，所以我問你什麼時候新增，原來是4月才新增喔！原來是4月才新增喔！"],["吳秘書長三龍：機關在運作也有一定的程序，所以當然按照一定的程序來處理。"],["黃委員國昌：我們看一下，這個案件數暴漲的情況，到2023年的時候已經爆表了，所以你司法院是怎麼樣？到今年4月開始有委員在問這個問題，今天才告訴大家，你是4月才新增執行股喔！沒有關係啦！1個禮拜之內請你把書面交出來，到底做了什麼，清楚地跟大家講。"],["吳秘書長三龍：我們會提出來、會提出來。"],["黃委員國昌：有關於判決查詢系統，這跟今天解凍的事由有關，你們自己再回去check一下，我常常查判決查不到，司法院的同仁幫秘書長把照片拍起來，地院的有、高院的有、最高法院的有，中間的抗字少一個，這個是什麼判決查詢系統啊！你們自己拍個照，這個是昨天晚上我隨便就找出來的。","請法務部，有一件事情請你們回去查清楚。我上次在這邊質詢，之前我們國會有職員很可惡，竟然勾結非法的詐騙集團，引進中國人來臺洗錢詐騙，去年11月判刑確定。通常這種案子發監執行要多久？"],["劉司長英秀：謝謝委員。不好意思，因為這個不是我管轄的業務，我回去……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，請你回去瞭解。"],["劉司長英秀：是。"],["黃委員國昌：請你回去找他們解釋清楚。"],["劉司長英秀：是。"],["黃委員國昌：為什麼這個人判刑確定到現在半年了，現在還在外面趴趴走？太離譜了啦！法務部現在是連發監執行的系統都出了狀況嗎？為什麼這個勾結外面的人，引進中國人到臺灣來搞非法、詐騙、洗錢的，到現在還在外面趴趴走，他是關係好嗎？判決確定都不用去關喔！有這種事情喔！請法務部回去瞭解一下。"],["劉司長英秀：是。"],["黃委員國昌：這個案件為什麼拖延這麼久？"],["劉司長英秀：是，我們瞭解後會再跟委員說明，謝謝。"],["黃委員國昌：好。去年12月的時候，開始在網路上面流傳一個監聽的名單，那個監聽名單出來的時候，非常罕見，我們的調查局、我們的廉政署、我們的最高檢察署說這是典型的認知作戰，三大執法機關的新聞稿，我全部都拜讀完了，我老實說啦！我拜讀完了以後，看不出來他們說這個是認知作戰指的到底是什麼東西，但我關心一件事情，因為在我國目前基本上監聽是要法官核監聽票的，所以這不是只有檢察機關的事情，如果這是境外敵對勢力的認知作戰，事情很嚴重，為什麼很嚴重？因為監聽有它的密行性，如果讓他知道了你在監聽他，那你還聽什麼？沒有意義嘛！但是去年我們廉政署、最高檢察署、調查局發了新聞稿說這是認知作戰，但沒有回答一個問題，什麼問題？這個監聽的名單是真的還是假的？如果是真的，怎麼外流的？這很嚴重。秘書長同不同意這件事情很嚴重？"],["吳秘書長三龍：當然嚴重啊！"],["黃委員國昌：好。法務部覺得這件事情嚴不嚴重？"],["劉司長英秀：是，是頗嚴重的。"],["黃委員國昌：好。既然很嚴重，蔡清祥說要強力偵辦，來！我先確定一下事實，這些監聽的名單是真的還是假的？既然嚴重，也是認知作戰，我們法律人實事求是，要從事實的確定開始，這些監聽的名單是真的還是假的？司法院有沒有去瞭解過？"],["吳秘書長三龍：政府機關有一定的分工，有些是涉及比較機密的那一部分，所以……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有、沒有。"],["吳秘書長三龍：是哪一部分……"],["黃委員國昌：我上面跟你講國安監聽，我全部都拿掉了，基本上這都是在辦貪腐案件，我一件一件去比對過了，因為當初這個監聽名單外流的時候，我非常震驚，有一些案子是之前我自己回到民間社會的時候就在追查的案子，我看了這個監聽名單，我非常的震驚，我的理由是我們國家檢調機關從法院那邊拿到了監聽票去監聽，這個名單會外流，非常可怕！如果是境外敵對勢力所掌握的，那就更可怕，我所知道，我目前在討論這個問題的時候，分兩個層次，第一個，如果這些名單是假的、如果這些名單全部都假的，我們就比較不用那麼擔心，因為這是典型的認知作戰嘛！拿假的東西跟大家說這是真的，但如果這是真的，問題就嚴重了，為什麼這一些被監聽的名單，竟然會在網路上面流傳，名單怎麼外洩的？這絕對不是發一個新聞稿說這個是認知作戰就可以解決的，現在問題來了，這些是真的監聽名單在外面，結果竟然在網路上就可以查得到，兩位剛剛都說非常的嚴重，法務部可不可以承諾徹查這些監聽名單怎麼外流的？可以嗎？"],["劉司長英秀：是，我們回去瞭解，會跟長官報告。"],["黃委員國昌：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員、謝謝秘書長和司長。","接下來有請傅委員崐萁、傅委員崐萁，傅委員崐萁不在。","我們有請吳委員思瑤質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":122,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-21","speakers":["鍾佳濱","沈發惠","陳俊宇","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","林思銘","黃國昌","吳思瑤","鄭天財Sra 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memory看一下那一天我問你喔強制執行的案件對基魯山司法院做了什麼然後你說會後會提供給書面報告給大家因為我那天質詢的時候你開始跟我扯啊扯說提報的司法人員特考需用名額那那個是未來的事情啊"},{"start":136.423,"end":159.06,"text":"強制執行的案件堆積如山影響到了非常多債權人債務人的權益造成了第一線執行科的書記官還有很多工作統人工作的負擔大家都快要爆肝了我那天具體的問題是司法院做了什麼你那天答不出來我請你會後交書面書面在哪裡"},{"start":159.821,"end":161.661,"text":"律師長請你聽問題好嗎?第一個我剛剛問你的是書面在哪裡?那書面的話那委員這邊因為我們這個"},{"start":188.84,"end":211.133,"text":"整理書面也要時間嘛有必要我們會馬上提供出來啦所以你還需要多久當初是你要求用書面跟我們回覆然後結果你今天跟大家講如果有必要你會提供司法院的態度是這樣嗎我不敢相信欸我們會盡量來配合啦對那你什麼時候要提供"},{"start":212.457,"end":220.403,"text":"你也太離譜了吧什麼叫我有需要欸你看一下你上次答詢的內容好不好是你自己說要給書面的欸對所以我剛問你嘛你需要多少時間嘛一個禮拜之內上次質詢是幾月幾號"},{"start":230.643,"end":250.186,"text":"那這個總是要彙整啊對嘛所以我說你需要多少時間上次你是4月24號你剛說需要一個禮拜我問你東西在哪裡我們會彙整出來有需要我們會提供出來啊對不起你這樣的回答我無法接受當初是你自己開口"},{"start":251.307,"end":272.18,"text":"所以你要用書面回答喔結果你今天跟大家講有需要你們會提供你什麼態度啊那書面我們當然會提供出來什麼時候提供那剛剛不是講一個禮拜之內我們從什麼時候開始算一個禮拜從今天開始算一個禮拜剛剛你說你有新增執行股什麼時候新增的那就是應應這個需要什麼時候新增的那個就已經都新增了什麼時候新增的"},{"start":281.425,"end":300.421,"text":"四月的時候才新增來看一下回去看這個數字我就是問你們過去這一兩年做了什麼結果今天在這邊說新增執行股改了半天什麼時候新增的2024年的4月"},{"start":303.749,"end":320.482,"text":"沒有關係啊民事執行處有很多案件啊有保險的有非保險的各式各類強制執行的案件我上次質詢你們的時候是點出這個問題欸我點出這個問題的時候我收到非常多民事執行處工作的同仁"},{"start":321.943,"end":324.504,"text":"機關在運作也有一定的程序啦"},{"start":345.334,"end":349.238,"text":"來 我們看一下我們看一下這個案件數暴漲的情況到2023年的時候已經爆表了所以你司法院是怎麼樣"},{"start":359.448,"end":376.927,"text":"到今年4月開始有委員在問這個問題今天才告訴大家你是4月才新增執行股喔沒有關係啊一個禮拜之內請你把書面交出來到底做了什麼清楚的跟大家講我們會提出來會提出來來"},{"start":380.29,"end":407.644,"text":"就有關於判決查詢系統這個相關吼跟今天解凍的事由有關係你們自己再回去check一下了我常常查判決查不到司法院的同仁幫秘書長把照片拍起來地院的有高院的有最高法院的沒有最高法院的有中間的抗制少一個這個是什麼判決查詢系統啊你們自己拍個照這個是我昨天晚上我隨便找就出來的"},{"start":410.706,"end":439.347,"text":"來請法務部有一件事情請你們請你們回去查清楚我上次在這邊質詢有我們之前國會的職員很可惡竟然勾結非法的詐騙集團引進中國人來台洗錢詐騙去年11月的時候判刑確定了去年11月判刑確定通常這種案子發監執行要多久"},{"start":441.803,"end":443.264,"text":"法務部現在是連發簽執行的系統都出了狀況嗎?"},{"start":469.111,"end":497.157,"text":"為什麼這個勾結外面的人引進中國人到台灣來搞非法詐騙洗錢的到現在還在外面趴趴照他是關係好嗎判決確定都不用去關喔有這種事情喔請法務部回去了解一下這個案件為什麼拖延這麼久我們了解後再跟我們說明謝謝去年12月的時候開始有"},{"start":498.311,"end":511.097,"text":"在網路上面流傳一個監聽的名單那個時候監聽的名單出來的時候非常罕見我們的調查局我們的廉政署我們的最高檢察署說這是典型的認知作戰"},{"start":512.384,"end":537.137,"text":"三大執法機關的新聞稿我全部都拜讀完了我老實說啦我拜讀完了以後我看不出來他們說這個是認知作戰指的到底是什麼東西但我關心一件事情因為在我國目前基本上面監聽是要法官核監聽票的所以這不是只有檢查機關的事情"},{"start":538.632,"end":554.779,"text":"如果這個是境外敵對勢力的認知作戰那事情很嚴重喔為什麼很嚴重因為監聽有它的密集性嘛你如果讓他知道了你再監聽他那你還聽什麼沒有意義嘛"},{"start":556.209,"end":582.608,"text":"但是去年我們廉政署、最高檢察署、調查局發了新聞稿說這是認知作戰但沒有回答一個問題什麼問題?這個監聽的名單是真的還是假的?如果是真的怎麼外流的?這很嚴重欸秘書長同不同意這件事情很嚴重?那當然嚴重啊好法務部覺得這件事情嚴不嚴重?"},{"start":584.11,"end":611.403,"text":"好 既然很嚴重的話蔡京強說這個我們要強力的偵辦來 我先確定一下事實這些監聽的名單是真的還是假的既然嚴重也是認知作戰嘛我們法律人實事求是要從事實的確定開始這些監聽的名單是真的還是假的司法院有沒有去了解過"},{"start":614.687,"end":634.492,"text":"政府機關有一定的分工啦那這些有些是涉及比較機密那一部分啦所以沒有沒有沒有我上面跟你講國安監聽我全部都拿掉了啦這個基本上都是在辦貪腐案件的啦我一件一件去比對過了"},{"start":635.692,"end":660.035,"text":"因為當初這個監聽名單外流的時候我非常震驚啊有一些案子是我們之前我自己回到民間社會的時候就在追查的案子我看了這個監聽名單我非常的震驚我的理由是說我們國家檢票機關從法院那邊拿到了監聽票去監聽這個名單會外流非常可怕"},{"start":660.976,"end":687.81,"text":"如果是境外敵對勢力所掌握的那就更可怕我所知道我目前在討論這個問題的時候分兩個層次第一個如果這些名單是假的如果這些名單全部都假的我們就比較不用那麼擔心因為這是典型的什麼認知作戰嘛拿假的東西跟大家說這個是真的但如果這個是真的問題就嚴重了"},{"start":689.089,"end":704.242,"text":"問題就嚴重了為什麼這些被監聽的名單竟然會在網路上面流傳名單怎麼外洩的這絕對不是發一個新聞稿說這個是認知作戰就可以解決的現在問題來了"},{"start":705.899,"end":705.919,"text":"好 謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}