{"error":false,"id":["152414"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":152414,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152414","日期":"2024-05-13","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-26-16","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":16,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-05-13T09:52:16+08:00","結束時間":"2024-05-13T10:01:15+08:00","影片長度":"00:08:59","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d7e25ee5d31e1734ae31fa377d898c62ab4a2946638eec232d94006c6d412c4d61f4198ff1cb05dc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱鎮軍","委員發言時間":"09:52:16 - 10:01:15","會議時間":"2024-05-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員王育敏等21人擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)國民黨黨團擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一)委員王育敏等18人擬具「勞動基準法第五十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)國民黨黨團擬具「勞動基準法第五十四條及第八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查\n(一)委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第二十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員王育敏等18人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第九條及第二十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員馬文君等22人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱若華等20人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n【一、(三)及(四)案：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【三、(四)案：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【討論事項綜合詢答】\n【5月13日、15日及16日三天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":445,"blocks":[["邱委員鎮軍：（9時52分）好，有請我們的許部長。"],["主席：好，請許部長。"],["許部長銘春：邱委員好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長好。今天應該是最後一次備詢。"],["許部長銘春：是，謝謝。"],["邱委員鎮軍：卸任之後要去哪裡？"],["許部長銘春：先休息一下。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我比較關心你。"],["許部長銘春：感謝。"],["邱委員鎮軍：雖然相處不久還是有感情的。"],["許部長銘春：謝謝。"],["邱委員鎮軍：請問部長，上次您到辦公室的時候，跟我提到提升就業的兩個重點工作，這中間包括婦女再就業以及促進中高齡就業，其中促進中高齡再進入職場的職務設計非常重要。目前職務再設計執行的狀況怎麼樣？"],["許部長銘春：我跟委員報告一下，去年我們補助549家事業單位，人次是2,250人，比111年的1,888人增加20%；今年截至3月底，受理131家事業單位，608人申請，所以我認為職務再設計服務這幾年的成效應該有逐漸增加及呈現。"],["邱委員鎮軍：請問部長，現在有哪些產業來申請？"],["許部長銘春：產業？"],["邱委員鎮軍：職務再設計的部分。"],["蔡署長孟良：目前申請職務再設計的大概是製造業，因為製造業可能有一些體力性工作，讓中高齡從事可能需要透過職務再設計。另外，服務業也有，像旅宿業跟餐飲，這個大概也是目前整個職務再設計比較多的部分。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我想問勞動部，如何具體提供促進中高齡再就業的誘因？依據勞動部的分析，申請的產業是否與現在中高齡者想投入的產業相符？這個比較重要。"],["許部長銘春：有，其實職務再設計不分產業，我們都歡迎他們來申請。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我們有協助設計中高齡彈性就業的……"],["許部長銘春：有。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我希望勞動部把這個工作交接好……"],["許部長銘春：好，這個我們會持續做。"],["邱委員鎮軍：因為這個未來也是非常重要的工作……"],["許部長銘春：對，非常重要。謝謝委員。"],["邱委員鎮軍：希望未來的新內閣能夠持續做這件事情。"],["許部長銘春：會。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，最近外面有許多降低企業勞工組織工會門檻的呼籲，希望從現行的30人降為10人或15人。請問部長，對於降低組工會的門檻，勞動部的立場會是怎麼樣？"],["許部長銘春：一直都有降低工會成立門檻人數的訴求……"],["邱委員鎮軍：有沒有跟經濟部做跨部會的溝通？"],["許部長銘春：這個部分的主責單位在關係司，他們都有多方徵詢，包括資方、勞方，都有聽取各界的意見。主要是現在……"],["邱委員鎮軍：現在貧富差距越來越大，中小企業的競爭力不再是主因，而且中小企業是國人就業的主力；根據統計，每一個中小企業的平均壽命只有13年，經營非常困難，所以政府第一步應該協助中小企業發展，落實勞資溝通，這才是對勞工最好的保障。工會、勞工的權益當然要保護，但是更重要的是對他的工作及中小企業的協助，我覺得這個也是重點。你給他再多的權利，如果公司倒了、沒有了等於零，對不對？"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對於警消面臨工作過勞、高危險，因此積極爭取警消人員組工會的狀況，我想先請問一下勞動部的立場怎麼樣？剛剛都提了。"],["許部長銘春：對，他的勞動權我們支持要保障，但是我們認為他的保障路徑，主要他是公務人員的身分，我們認為應該在公務人員協會法裡面落實，看如何強化、提升及擴大他的結社權跟協商權，這個是主要的目標跟方向。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我想請問一下考試院的銓敘部，你們目前有沒有重新提案？方向還是放寬公協會的成立門檻嗎？"],["朱次長楠賢：是，門檻降低、協商內容增加。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好啦！有關這個問題，事實上，警消人員是屬於危勞的行業，長期爭取應落實公務人員安全及衛生防護辦法，我覺得這個非常重要，第三條的規定我們也希望銓敘部能制定相關的辦法，具體提供警消人員的安全衛生及防護措施，或者是適用職業安全衛生法的規定，最大的差別是只有殉職沒有職災以及公務機關沒有罰則也沒有責任，請銓敘部儘快與內政部洽商，提高對於高危勞警消人員的預防跟保護措施。我想這個也非常重要，不能因為他們目前沒有成立工會，工會的問題放在後面，我覺得這個要先做，好不好？","我再請問許部長，上次我們談到112年15歲到24歲的青年失業率仍然高達11.37%，部長跟我說現在已經降到8趴多，我回去怎麼看、怎麼查都找不到你說的數據。我後來問了勞動部發展署，他跟我說你講的是15歲到29歲，但是這兩張表根本就沒有15到29歲的統計級距。我提問的是引用勞動部「台灣勞工季刊」第72期提出的數據，是針對15歲到24歲失業率的比較，你把它拉到29歲當然數字會有差。"],["許部長銘春：OECD對於青年的定義就是15到29歲。"],["邱委員鎮軍：為什麼你們公布的又不一樣呢？你看嘛！"],["許部長銘春：剛剛那個區間好像……"],["蔡署長孟良：目前青年就業是以15到29歲，有一些勞動統計……"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啦！現在問題不在幾歲到幾歲，重點是你們提供出來的數據，無論是勞動部，包含環保署，每一次我提到的數據都是不太對的。"],["許部長銘春：這是主計總處的資料。"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，因為主計總處有時候它的勞動統計會跟國際的一些統計比較，其他國家像OECD有些是以15到24歲。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以國際是15到29歲，為什麼你要公布15到24歲呢？你就是要讓人家誤解嘛，對不對？"],["蔡署長孟良：其實沒有，因為……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我希望政府應該誠實面對問題，這樣我們才會有進步的空間，好不好？"],["蔡署長孟良：我們國內現在針對失業的族群主要是15到29歲這個區間，可能都需要政府再透過我們這個方案來做一個協助，我們大概會聚焦在這個部分做相關的處理。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以你們以後就公布15到29歲，對不對？你們為什麼要去拉那個奇怪的資料，讓人家找不到？"],["許部長銘春：這個不是我們，這是主計總處的統計資料。不過委員您的建議，我們在……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你們也可以公布，好不好？"],["許部長銘春：因為我們青年失業的改善是針對……"],["邱委員鎮軍：這跟你們的業務也有相關，當你發現不對的時候，你們應該要及時做處理。"],["許部長銘春：也不是不對啦！委員，我們可能在聚焦的部分，另外做一個統計數據，讓大家能夠瞭解，可能這樣就不會誤會。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好啦，謝謝部長。"],["許部長銘春：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝邱委員。接下來我們請廖偉翔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":270,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-16","speakers":["王育敏","蘇清泉","陳菁徽","陳昭姿","林月琴","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","涂權吉","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","王正旭","黃秀芳","林淑芬","牛煦庭","劉建國","陳培瑜","黃國昌","張智倫","李彥秀","邱志偉","陳瑩","楊曜","盧縣一"],"page_start":189,"meetingDate":["2024-05-13"],"gazette_id":"1134603","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134603_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查(一)委員王育敏等21人擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案、(二)國民黨黨\n團擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「工會法第四條\n及第六條條文修正草案」案、(四)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」\n案；二、審查(一)委員王育敏等18人擬具「勞動基準法第五十四條條文修正草案」案、(二)國民\n黨黨團擬具「勞動基準法第五十四條及第八十六條條文修正草案」案；三、審查(一)委員郭昱晴\n等19人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員王育敏等18\n人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第九條及第二十九條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員馬文君\n等22人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員邱若華等20人擬\n具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1134603_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.08846875,"end":12.400343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.497218750000002,"end":14.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.07034375,"end":18.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.77909375,"end":19.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.09534375,"end":21.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.96846875,"end":22.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.76159375,"end":23.082218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.31846875,"end":23.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.195968750000002,"end":25.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.06471875,"end":28.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.245968750000003,"end":40.665968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.304718750000003,"end":30.60846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":31.35096875,"end":31.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.05409375,"end":59.61659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.02846875,"end":43.399718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":59.66721875,"end":61.320968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":61.557218750000004,"end":64.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":64.96596875,"end":67.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":67.53096875,"end":76.89659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.36909375,"end":80.27159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":80.50784375,"end":86.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":86.49846875,"end":93.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.53971875,"end":95.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":96.37034375,"end":97.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.02846875,"end":97.34909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.90596875,"end":99.37409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":99.37409375,"end":100.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.11659375,"end":100.31909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.31909375000001,"end":117.56534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.51034375,"end":133.42784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.42784375000002,"end":134.30534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.69784375,"end":135.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":134.77784375000002,"end":142.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.40971875,"end":145.91534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":145.83096875,"end":148.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.75471875000002,"end":161.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":150.21846875,"end":150.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.25221875,"end":150.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":150.26909375,"end":150.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":151.02846875,"end":153.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":154.11659375000002,"end":156.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":159.88784375,"end":160.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":161.05221875,"end":161.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.47409375,"end":167.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":167.48159375,"end":168.02159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.02159375000002,"end":175.86846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.91909375,"end":176.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":177.25221875,"end":177.82596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":177.91034375,"end":179.81721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":180.39096875,"end":183.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":183.93471875,"end":188.81159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.03534375,"end":191.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":192.08534375000002,"end":193.01346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":193.51971875,"end":202.22721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":202.64909375000002,"end":207.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.78784375,"end":227.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":212.57159375,"end":212.67284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":212.95971875,"end":213.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.01034375,"end":213.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.47721875000002,"end":222.88221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":224.18159375000002,"end":224.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.11346875,"end":247.24971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":234.13784375,"end":234.23909375000002},{"speaker"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️ ️ ️ ️"},{"start":162.428,"end":189.395,"text":"最近外面有許多降低企業勞工組織工會門檻的呼籲希望從現行的30人降為10人或15人請問部長對於降低組工會的門檻勞動部的立場會是怎麼樣?報告委員當然這個降低工會門檻的這個訴求就成立門檻的人數的訴求一直都有這樣的一個參與有沒有跟經濟部這邊來做跨部會的這個溝通?"},{"start":192.159,"end":196.343,"text":"議員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案 案件,在中小企業競爭力不再是主因,而中小企業是國人就業的一個主因。」"},{"start":217.461,"end":217.701,"text":"公司倒了﹖"},{"start":248.202,"end":257.088,"text":"沒有了那等於零嘛對不對那我再請問一下這個全序部的代表對於警消的工作過勞高危險積極爭取犯官這個警消人員的主工會的這個狀況我想先請問一下勞動部的您的立場怎麼樣"},{"start":275.967,"end":288.992,"text":"議員王育敏等19人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案﹚立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案﹚立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案﹚立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案﹚立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案﹚立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案﹚立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案案﹚立法院第四條及第六條條條文修正草案案﹚立法院第四條及第六條條條文修正草案"},{"start":305.731,"end":321.638,"text":"那我想請問一下考試院的全序部我們目前有沒有重新提案方向還是朝這個放寬工協會的這個成立門檻嗎?是是那個門檻降低協商內容增加這樣子。好啦這個問題事實上我覺得啦"},{"start":322.538,"end":341.305,"text":"僅消人員因為是屬於危牢的一個行業那長期爭取應落實公務人員安全及衛生防護法我覺得這非常的重要第三條的規定我們也希望全市部能制定相關的辦法具體提供僅消人員的安全衛生及防護措施或者是適用"},{"start":342.145,"end":343.266,"text":"委員陳菁徽等18人擬具〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案〉案"},{"start":372.225,"end":396.263,"text":"好吧那我再請問我們的許部長是上次我們談到112年到這個15歲到24歲青年失業率仍然高達11.37%部長跟我說現在已經降到8%多我回去怎麼看怎麼查就找不到你說的數據啊找不到數據有啊"},{"start":401.85,"end":422.846,"text":"結果我後來問了勞動部你們發展署跟我說你講的是15歲到29歲但這兩張表根本就沒有15到29歲的這個統計這個級距事實上我提問的就是引用勞動部台灣勞工紀刊第72期提出的是針對15歲到24歲的失業率的比較"},{"start":427.17,"end":429.431,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":447.136,"end":459.992,"text":"兼委員報告因為我們目前在青年就業基本上是以15到29歲那有一些勞動同期我覺得現在是這樣現在問題不在於說幾歲到幾歲重點是說你們提供出來的數據無論是勞動部"},{"start":462.876,"end":466.338,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案：一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑"},{"start":485.385,"end":509.387,"text":"你就是要讓人家誤解嘛 對不對 跟委員其實沒有希望大家政府應該這樣子啊誠實面對問題這樣子我們才會有進步的空間好不好跟委員報告因為其實我們現在國內針對這個失業的族群主要是15到29歲這個區間可能都需要政府再透過我們這個方案來做一個協助所以我們大概是會聚焦在這個部分那所以你們以後公布就公布15到29歲嘛"},{"start":511.482,"end":534.641,"text":" entreprene?你們為什麼要去拿那個奇怪的資料呢?讓人家找不到。這個是主席總書他的統計資料。不過委員您的建議我們在...因為我們這個青年就業...就跟你們的業務也有相關嘛。當你發現不對的時候,你們應該要及時的來做...就我們可能另外這個聚焦的部分我們另外做一個統計數據讓大家能夠了解。可能這樣子不會誤會。謝謝。好,謝謝。"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}