{"error":false,"id":["152426"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":152426,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152426","日期":"2024-05-13","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-26-16","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":16,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-05-13T10:13:10+08:00","結束時間":"2024-05-13T10:25:17+08:00","影片長度":"00:12:07","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d7e25ee5d31e173441a1c2c4b16fa4f4ab4a2946638eec232d94006c6d412c4d7bed10a2a74c501c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇清泉","委員發言時間":"10:13:10 - 10:25:17","會議時間":"2024-05-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員王育敏等21人擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)國民黨黨團擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一)委員王育敏等18人擬具「勞動基準法第五十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)國民黨黨團擬具「勞動基準法第五十四條及第八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查\n(一)委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第二十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員王育敏等18人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第九條及第二十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員馬文君等22人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱若華等20人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n【一、(三)及(四)案：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【三、(四)案：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【討論事項綜合詢答】\n【5月13日、15日及16日三天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":565,"blocks":[["蘇委員清泉：（10時13分）謝謝主席，我請部長，還有我們銓敘部。"],["主席：好，請部長跟次長。"],["許部長銘春：蘇委員好。"],["蘇委員清泉：恭喜你，部長，我們政府是最大的雇主，廣義的公務人員全部都是被它聘僱，政府是最大的雇主，但是所有的行政單位要組工會都反對，銓敘部都反對，包括我們消防員要組工會，包括我們的警察要組工會都一再反對，我這裡要肯定我們的勞動部，勞動部一直以來用我們的勞基法這種霸王條款，所有的雇主、所有的民間單位如果聽到勞基法都聞風喪膽，大家都嚇死，你們的處罰又那麼重，所以民間現在，照我看起來，勞動部真的是規範得非常好啦！你們現在的退休部分也不錯，現在用4萬5,800？"],["許部長銘春：45,800。"],["蘇委員清泉：45,800嘛！將來說要調到6萬2，會不會？"],["許部長銘春：這個未來可能要跟勞保年改一起討論。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，勞動部如果再振作一點的話，我們勞保的退休將來會比公務人員還好，公務人員一年少1%、少1%，少到現在，我的提案就是警察跟消防隊員要比照軍人的所得替代率高一點，要把它恢復，公務人員的降到現在已經降了7、8%了，很多人都到樓地板了，所以我覺得公務人員將來退休撫卹的權利會比勞保更差，但是不幸地我們今天在質詢勞動部，勞動部的權力不及於公家單位的所有員工，所以今天問你是問假的、問爽的而已，對不對？要組一個工會，你就嘰嘰歪歪，什麼都不要，中鋼、中油、中華電信都有，為什麼我們政府當最大雇主的，要組個工會有那麼難嗎？銓敘部回答一下。"],["朱次長楠賢：跟蘇委員報告，我們公務人員的體制，相關的公務人員任用法、公務員服務法、退休法，有很多，它的人事法規……"],["蘇委員清泉：但是你們的福利就很差啊！"],["朱次長楠賢：不會很差啦！"],["蘇委員清泉：人家為國捐軀，然後入忠烈祠，那個有什麼鳥用？人都已經沒有了，那個都在亡羊補牢，每天幹的事都在做亡羊補牢的事情，你們對你們僱員的權益輸給勞動部、輸給勞基法，真的是我們都看不下去。"],["朱次長楠賢：不會啦！我們就協商內容給它擴大，參與門檻給它降低，以後怎麼再擴大、再降低，我們可以再談。"],["蘇委員清泉：年輕的警察、年輕的消防隊員，我常常跑基層，幾乎天天跑基層，大家都在抱怨，大家都希望有工會來替他們發聲，老的可能比較沒有衝擊，但是這些年輕人不一樣，我跟你說，會待不住、會跑光喔！外面如果又缺人，外面的薪水如果又高，整個FDA（食藥署）在做稽查員的都找不到人，高雄、臺中、臺北都找不到人，薪水低、壓力大，常常被罵得要死，你們這裡也一樣，所以你們要看看，你們剛剛講的公務人員因公受傷什麼什麼什麼，你到底有什麼法來保障他們？有什麼法？你剛剛講了，我看也沒有什麼特殊的嘛！所以銓敘部這樣是不對的，然後你一昧地反對，美國、加拿大、英國都有工會組織，有什麼事情？我去看中鋼、我去看中華電信、我去看台電，他們的工會扮演得非常好，跟公司治理、跟他們員工的對接，當一個橋梁，跟他們爭取福利，勞動部跟他們的協調也非常好嘛！所以我再一次地肯定我們部長、我們勞動部，但是勞動部這一塊都沒有我們，要怎麼處理？你就讓它通過就好了，樂觀其成，來組工會，有什麼難呢？部長，我今天問你這個比較大的問題，小細節懶得問啦！"],["許部長銘春：因為就是身分的問題，因為這個也不是勞動部片面可以決定的，因為這牽涉到內政部、牽涉到人總，還牽涉到跨院的考試院，所以我想這個部分，保障公務人員、警消人員的權益，我想我們大家的目標都是一致的，只是說你要用一個什麼組織型態去保障他，而且重點是實質的內容，我覺得那個法可能是一個形式，但是實質的內容能夠達到保障的目的，我覺得這比較重要啦！因為像中鋼、中油現在已經民營化，它基本上不是公務人員……"],["蘇委員清泉：大部分都是國家擁有的嘛！"],["許部長銘春：但是基本上它不是公務人員……"],["蘇委員清泉：釋股出來一點點而已啊！"],["許部長銘春：我是覺得這個部分，其實銓敘部他們也認同，它也認同說應該要保障，所以要怎麼降低組工協會的門檻、怎麼擴大能夠協商的事項，因為我想大家很在意的是過去可能我講都沒人聽，我想要協商的東西好像也沒有人可以幫忙解決，我想……"],["蘇委員清泉：你們勞動部有沒有辦法介入？沒辦法。"],["許部長銘春：但是我想在這幾件事情下來，其實政府對這件事情是重視的，所以我們其實跨部會包括跨院也協商好多次，勞動部也都參與其中，我們儘量就是把如何去落實保障我們警消人員的團結權，我們儘量來協助各部會能夠把它完成。"],["蘇委員清泉：朱次長，我每一次看到、每一次去公祭、每一次去參加這些因公死亡的、受傷的，每一次去，家屬都是血淚的控訴，我們都覺得怎麼有這樣幹的，到國外去看，我就講一個，當兵當了10年，然後到外面去找工作，他軍中那10年的年資跟外面找工作的年資是可以合併的；但在臺灣當兵當了19年，沒有20年就沒有月退，而19年之前全部歸零，然後給他一個什麼退休金一點點錢，之後到外面去找工作是從頭來，那他不就要很「保庇」他都可以待20年以上，19年、18年就歸零。現在就是這樣，每天常常在接的陳情都是這樣，所以國防部在騙百姓、政府在騙百姓嘛！國外早就可以合併了，這個是天經地義的事情，銓敘部有什麼辦法嗎？我說的這些政府都是最大的雇主，不管是軍人、不管是軍公教或警消都是一樣。"],["朱次長楠賢：現在退休的部分我們是用確定提撥制，比較有彈性。"],["蘇委員清泉：比較有彈性？"],["朱次長楠賢：對，做15年以上就可以領了。"],["蘇委員清泉：15年以上就可以領？"],["朱次長楠賢：對。"],["蘇委員清泉：好。部長，我再問你中高齡的部分，你的意思就是中高齡來上班，只要僱了他之後就不能隨便辭退他，對不對？"],["許部長銘春：對……"],["蘇委員清泉：不能用65歲為界線？"],["許部長銘春：對，不能用65歲為界線。"],["蘇委員清泉：所謂不能隨便辭退他是用各種理由還是用65歲是一個上限？"],["許部長銘春：其實65歲是一個「得」啦！就是他如果滿65歲，你可以強制他退休，但你也可以繼續嘛！所以其實這個規定當時是在保障勞工在65歲之前不會任意的被退休啦！但是如果它優於勞基法，他滿65歲要繼續做，而資方也覺得這個員工它正需要，他的經驗、技術正好，要繼續做，這個法律是認同的。"],["蘇委員清泉：那他是到65歲就可以領勞保的月退，再進來讓你hire他……"],["許部長銘春：他自己選擇，他一次退還是領年金都可以，他自己決定，但是他如果65歲以後要再回來上班，可以啊！以前勞基法不能訂定期契約喔！我們的中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法當時就是突破這個限制，也就是高齡者回聘可以訂定期契約，但是你不能聘他之後過兩天就說他滿65歲要把他……"],["蘇委員清泉：不能隨隨便便？"],["許部長銘春：對，不能隨便。"],["蘇委員清泉：你說那個要優惠130%、150%，那是什麼意思？稅金的部分。"],["許部長銘春：那是財政部的。"],["蘇委員清泉：賦稅署的副署長。"],["許部長銘春：財政部的，中小企業發展條例是經濟部啦！"],["蘇委員清泉：你給它200%也可以啊！"],["許部長銘春：經濟部啦！"],["蘇委員清泉：那是經濟部還是賦稅署的？"],["許部長銘春：經濟部。"],["倪副署長麗心：主要是經濟部的案子，財政部跟經濟部共同來研究，中小企業發展條例這個案子上禮拜經過大院審查，案子目前就是交由黨團協商。"],["蘇委員清泉：所以你說要求的130%、150%都有可能嗎？"],["倪副署長麗心：目前行政院的版本是150%。"],["蘇委員清泉：我們如果要求200%可以嗎？"],["倪副署長麗心：大院有很多委員的版本，目前就是正在跟經濟部還有在黨團協商這樣。"],["蘇委員清泉：好。因為我在美國的達拉斯看到開shuttle bus的，我問他幾歲了，他說他78歲，78歲還在開shuttle bus，我看他這樣勇健，所以美國是78歲還在開車，還在服務；日本也有喔！開計程車也有七、八十歲的耶！因此只要他的能力、他的體力夠，我們專業人員又那麼缺，這些人都是我們可以用的，所以現在醫生70歲還在看病的一堆，因此沒什麼退休年齡，我們勞動部要加油啦！公務人員這邊你要加油啦！手要伸進去，以上，謝謝。"],["許部長銘春：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。"],["主席（蘇委員清泉代）：接續請王育敏委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":270,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-16","speakers":["王育敏","蘇清泉","陳菁徽","陳昭姿","林月琴","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","涂權吉","鄭天財Sra 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你的法律就很壞了﹖ 不會啦﹖探討人為國監修然後入中獵池,那個有什麼用﹖"},{"start":191.22,"end":197.422,"text":"每天幹的事都在做亡羊補牢的事情。你們對你們僱員的權益比較屬勞動部、比較屬勞計劃。這真的是我都看下去了。我們就協商內容給他擴大、參議門檻給他降低。以後怎麼再擴大、再降低我們可以再談。"},{"start":221.152,"end":247.765,"text":"年輕的警察、年輕的消防隊員,我常常跑基層,幾乎天天跑基層,大家都叫我叫我,大家都希望有工會來替我生,老的可能比較沒有衝擊,但是現在的年輕人不一樣,我跟你說,會住不住,會遭料料,外面又欺負人,外面的行事又管,"},{"start":249.056,"end":253.237,"text":"委員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案：一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑"},{"start":278.24,"end":292.203,"text":"公務員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案 案件,及公務員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案 案件,及公務員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案 案件,及公務員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案 案件,及公務員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案 案件,及公務員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文�"},{"start":301,"end":317.682,"text":"公務部跟那邊的那個協調也非常好嘛,所以我再一次的肯定我們部長,我們勞動部,但是勞動部這一塊都沒我們的,沒怎麼處理,你就給同櫃就好了,樂觀其成,來做工會,有什麼人勒?部長?"},{"start":322.219,"end":329.265,"text":"議員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。」案。議員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案。案。"},{"start":345.999,"end":368.755,"text":"除此之外,你用什麼組織的形態去保障它?而且重點是實質的內容。我覺得那個法可能一個形式,但是實質的內容能夠達到保障的目的,我覺得這比較重要。因為像中鋼,因為它現在已經民營化了,它基本上不是工人業。大部分都是國家擁有的嘛。自放出來一點點而已啊。"},{"start":371.557,"end":373.939,"text":"​​議員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":396.217,"end":415.248,"text":" »: 我想在這幾件事情下來,政府對這件事情是重視的。我們其實跨部會包括跨院協商很多事,勞動部也都參與期間。我們盡量就是把如何去落實保障我們警消人員的團結權,我們盡量來協助各部會能夠把它完成。"},{"start":415.908,"end":428.799,"text":"我們朱次長我每次看到每次去攻擊每次去參加這些這些這些叫做因公的死亡的啦受傷的每次去家屬都是血裂的痛控訴"},{"start":430.365,"end":445.88,"text":"我們都覺得怎麼會有這樣幹的我到國外去看人家就講一個當兵當了10年然後到外面去找工作他軍中那10年的年資跟外面找工作的年資是可以合併的"},{"start":447.352,"end":467.542,"text":"我們在台灣當兵當了19年沒有20年就沒有月退然後19年之前全部歸零然後給你一個什麼退休什麼挖革金一點點錢然後到外面去找工作從頭來啊你不就要做剝皮工你都會都住20年以上啊19年、18年就歸零"},{"start":471.645,"end":498.98,"text":"現在就這樣呢每天常常在接那個陳秦斗就是這樣所以這國安部在騙百姓政府在騙百姓嘛因為國安早就可以合併了這個是天經地義的事情沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼"},{"start":501.954,"end":504.276,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案 案 案 案"},{"start":514.71,"end":536.187,"text":"你做15年以上就可以擬?15年以上就可以擬部長我再問你這個鍾高麟的你的意思就是說鍾高麟來上班只要顧了他之後就不能隨便辭退他對不對"},{"start":537.05,"end":547.651,"text":"不能用65歲為界限。那所謂不能隨便辭退他是用各種理由還是用65歲是一個上限?"},{"start":549.471,"end":568.127,"text":"之六十五歲是一個你得啦就是說他如果滿六十五歲你可以強制他退休那你也可以繼續嘛所以他其實這個規定當時候是在保障勞工在六十五歲之前不會被任意的被退休啦"},{"start":569.889,"end":572.874,"text":"但是如果你優惠勞基法以滿65歲,我要繼續做,主方也覺得你這個員工我聽說你經驗很好、技術很好,你要繼續。"},{"start":580.247,"end":586.874,"text":"議員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案：立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案：立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案：立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案：立"},{"start":602.731,"end":617.337,"text":"我們中高齡高齡者就業促進法當時候就是突破這個限制就是說高齡者這個高齡者他回聘他可以訂定期契約但是你不可以把他聘了你說過兩天你說你滿65歲不能隨便那你說那個那個那個要優惠130%150%那這什麼意思"},{"start":626.764,"end":631.47,"text":"財政部財政部財政部財政部財政部財政部財政部財政部財政部"},{"start":642.605,"end":656.978,"text":"經濟部主要是經濟部的案子那財政部跟經濟部共同來研究那這個中小企業發展台這個案子已經上禮拜經過這個大院有審查那案子目前現在就是交由黨團協商所以你說要求的130、150都有可能嗎目前行政院的版本是150那我們如果要求200可以嗎"},{"start":669.185,"end":682.611,"text":"目前大院有很多委員的版本那目前就是正在跟經濟部還有在跟在黨團協商這樣好因為我在在美國齁我在那個達拉斯看到那個shuttle bus開shuttle bus的我問你幾歲啊他說七十八歲"},{"start":689.389,"end":707.835,"text":"七十八人擬具工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。厲 國七十八人擬具工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案。厲 國七十八人擬具工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案。厲 國七十八人擬具工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案。厲 國七十八人擬具工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案。厲 國七十八人擬具工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案。厲 國七十八人擬具工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案。厲 國七十八人擬具工會法第四條及第六條條文�"},{"start":718.64,"end":722.756,"text":"公務員這邊你要加油啦 手要伸進去 以上 謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}