{"error":false,"id":["152446"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":152446,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152446","日期":"2024-05-13","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-26-16","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":16,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-05-13T11:16:21+08:00","結束時間":"2024-05-13T11:28:54+08:00","影片長度":"00:12:33","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d7e25ee5d31e173406c38bcb3c838b77ab4a2946638eec232d94006c6d412c4d21a471a2d4db75405ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃秀芳","委員發言時間":"11:16:21 - 11:28:54","會議時間":"2024-05-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員王育敏等21人擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)國民黨黨團擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一)委員王育敏等18人擬具「勞動基準法第五十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)國民黨黨團擬具「勞動基準法第五十四條及第八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查\n(一)委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第二十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員王育敏等18人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第九條及第二十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員馬文君等22人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱若華等20人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n【一、(三)及(四)案：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【三、(四)案：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【討論事項綜合詢答】\n【5月13日、15日及16日三天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":787,"blocks":[["黃委員秀芳：（11時16分）謝謝主席，我們請部長。"],["主席：有請許部長。"],["許部長銘春：黃委員好。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長好。部長，我先請教的是，我們勞動部的彈性育嬰留職停薪在這個月9號開始試辦，我想請教的是，這個彈性育嬰留職停薪，我們有說要在5天前用書面方式提出申請，試辦單位也可以規定少於5天這個期限。我想請教，我記得上一次在委員會的時候，部長也有提到目前有64家加入試辦。"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["黃委員秀芳：我想請教，這64家當中，有幾家的條件是比我們勞動部所規定的還要寬鬆？這個你們有去做一個統計嗎？就是比你們勞動部原本所規定的還要再寬鬆一點，有嗎？"],["許部長銘春：有。"],["黃委員秀芳：你們本身有去做統計？"],["許部長銘春：是，就是我們現在原則是5天，也有比5天還少的。"],["黃委員秀芳：所以目前有？"],["許部長銘春：是。現在我們這個申請其實到5月底之前都可以，就是有意願的企業單位，我們還是歡迎它來申請試辦，已經提出來的64家，我們統計是有優於……就是比那5天還少的事業單位。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，我是不是可以要求你們，就是在試辦當中，譬如說到年底，你們應該也要再去做一個統計，就是整個勞工申請的狀況，或者是意願，或者是大家覺得這樣好不好用？我覺得到年底的時候，你們應該要再去做一個統計。"],["許部長銘春：對，報告委員，這是一定要做的，為什麼我們要先用試辦的方式？也就是說，要讓整個勞務的實務運作之後，到底會有哪些問題？怎麼樣來做會比較好？這個就提供一個參考，因為很多委員主張有更彈性的育嬰留停，但是我們也考慮到，因為我們中小企業居多，大事業單位可能會比較好用，其他的要看大家的回饋怎麼樣，還有試辦的成效，我們再來做檢討，因為我們現在等於是針對工作的需求跟育兒的需求，儘量能夠去滿足勞工的訴求。"],["黃委員秀芳：是，好。部長，接下來我想請教，關於育嬰留職停薪，其實我們有一個規定，就是就保法規定育嬰留職停薪的津貼未滿一個月以一個月計算，是不是也有可能每個月譬如說我如果只有請一天，那我也是以一個月來計算，這樣相對的是不是還要修其他的法令？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，現行的規範本來就是每三十天發放一次，我們之前的規定就是因為考量到有些是……因為我們現在是期初發給，我們每個月都是期初就發錢給他，有些會提早復職，或者是會有零頭，因為六個月不會剛好那個月，可能多個……","假設6月，他可能只停個3天，時間就到了，還要追錢也麻煩，為了簡政便民，所以當初就是未滿一個月也以一個月計。"],["黃委員秀芳：現在可以彈性地來……"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，因為現在是試辦，我們還要觀察，未來試辦的結果我們會來檢討，也聽聽各界的意見，該修我們就修。"],["黃委員秀芳：所以你們現在是要怎麼計算？"],["許部長銘春：現在還是照原來的啊！"],["黃委員秀芳：喔，就照原來的哦？"],["許部長銘春：現在是照原來的，因為……"],["黃委員秀芳：喔，是照原來的啦！"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，因為這是試辦，而且到年底而已，我們不可能為一個試辦計畫去修法，因為這樣影響比較大。我的意思是，試辦之後如果有應該要修的相關法規，譬如可能這個制度我們要這樣子走了，到時候再一起來修；現在就是照原來的規範啦！"],["黃委員秀芳：所以如果一個月只請一次，也有可能領到一個月嘛！"],["許部長銘春：對，現在的規定就是這樣子。試辦其實就是希望能夠瞭解勞工在實務現場的訴求，所以我們是想等試辦完畢再來檢討會比較好。"],["黃委員秀芳：OK。這個法令跟實際狀況當然要有一些配套。"],["許部長銘春：是！試辦以後可能還有很多東西我們要去檢討，如果這個制度要施行、是適合臺灣的一個好的制度，我們當然要把相關配套檢討出來，包括剛剛委員在關心的這個部分是不是也要修規範，這些都會一併來討論。"],["黃委員秀芳：好。","部長，我接下來要請教有關外送平台的問題。我看到3月18日勞動部有特別發文給兩大外送平台，甚至司長也有親自拜會他們，對不對？"],["王司長厚偉：對。"],["黃委員秀芳：這可能是為了外送費用的透明化或者是明確化進行道德勸說。我想請教，對於你們3月18日的發文，這兩個外送平台有回復了嗎？"],["王司長厚偉：報告委員，目前為止他們還在研議……"],["黃委員秀芳：所以還沒有回復？"],["王司長厚偉：對。不過我們在5月29日要開下一次（第6次）的平台會議，這個議題會列為當天很重要的一個討論事項。"],["黃委員秀芳：如果他們一直不回復你們呢？"],["王司長厚偉：跟委員報告，我們有提到保障他們報酬的方法、途徑，如果他們覺得用這個方法對他們來講不是最理想的做法，因為都有工會在，我們是請雙方就平台來溝通，他們也可以提出另外一些做法，跟比較具體的確保外送人員報酬能夠比較穩定和增進，勞資雙方可以當場來做一些溝通，找找看有沒有比較適合的方法。"],["黃委員秀芳：我們的外送員總共有14萬人，真的是一個非常大的族群，司長也很用心，還親自去拜會，我們當然也希望這兩個外送平台真的能有所回應，如果他們不回應的話，你們應該也要有一些手段吧？既然在臺灣，當然就要依照臺灣的法規，所以未來如果他們不回復、不遵照，或者是整個都不很明確也不透明的話，你們要怎麼處理？你們是要等到5月底那一次的會議？"],["王司長厚偉：對，我們5月29日會開下一次（第6次）的會議來做討論。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，部長即將卸任，我們希望……"],["許部長銘春：不會啦、不會！我們一定會保障外送員的權益，政府該有什麼態度就應該要展現出來！我們是希望大家和諧地去把問題解決，當然，如果他們相應不理，政府該有的公權力就要拿出來啊，我相信未來新的部長也會支持。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，謝謝。","接下來我要請教消防署署長。"],["蕭署長煥章：委員好。"],["黃委員秀芳：署長好。在這幾年當中，消防員為了打火而傷亡的事件非常多，我相信很多消防員最期待的是，第一個，所有的裝備一定要齊全，打火兄弟一進到火場，很多人都覺得是在出生入死，結果裝備並不是那麼齊全，所以我覺得保障這些消防員的權益當然非常重要，可是更重要的應該是要保障消防弟兄的所有設備一定要齊全。這點是不是請署長回應一下？"],["蕭署長煥章：是，感謝委員這麼關心消防，事實上真正達成安全要三個層面，剛才委員講到第一個層面就是裝備、器材、車輛、廳舍，這個部分前一陣子已經准了23個計畫，未來幾年應該有差不多200億的經費會投注在整個第一線……"],["黃委員秀芳：所以逐年要有多少經費撥入？"],["蕭署長煥章：5年差不多200億，所以每年至少會有大約40億的經費會投注在……"],["黃委員秀芳：5年多少？"],["蕭署長煥章：200億。"],["黃委員秀芳：5年200億？"],["蕭署長煥章：對，目前都已經核定了。所以裝備、器材、車輛這個部分已經在執行當中。另外就是要達到管理的層面，所以現在消防法也要修正、增加職安專章，這個案子已經報到行政院，最近會送到大院來審查。修法重點是要把整個安全管理機制建立好，這個機制事實上3年之前我們就開始在執行了，比方說我們3年之前找2個縣市，去年找8個縣市，今年會找16個縣市，把先期的安全文化機制做一個輔導。明年開始，我們的職安中程計畫就有點像深耕計畫的概念，輔導縣市來達成消防的職業安全，因為這是全新的領域，並不是用口頭講就可以達到，所以中程計畫也是分5年來執行。最後一個部分就是整個安全文化的建置，包括法律面、執行面還有輔導面，我們預期至少要有5年的時間，逐步由下而上、由上而下來雙重進行這方面的建置比較能夠達成這樣的目標，不是成立工會或者協會就可以達到的，我們是從執行面參考日本、美國的做法。我上禮拜也到美國參加世界消防首長會議，總共有55個國家參加，會議當中也把消防人員的健康安全列為討論的重點，這個部分也是各國目前正在重視和執行的，我們的中程計畫也是朝向日本、美國的做法，如果還有更好的做法，都會納入我們後面執行和強調的方向。"],["黃委員秀芳：我們當然希望消防員的權益能有所保障，就像剛剛署長講的，現在可能5年要針對整個裝備或設施投入200億，但是我覺得第一線人員在現場、火場當中的判斷也非常重要，當火正在燒的時候，第一個是指揮官要去判斷這個時候可不可以再進去，這就是剛剛講的職業安全，我覺得職業安全的訓練真的也都非常重要，不論是裝備或者是職業安全，所有火場指揮官的指揮調度也都非常重要。"],["蕭署長煥章：剛剛委員說的就是由下而上的概念，每一位都要有職業安全文化的概念，消防人員的養成教育目前會調整成一整年對技術的教育訓練，相關的制度和做法已經確認了，目前也正在作業。除了養成教育的作業，還有在職人員的教育訓練，再加上職業安全文化，我想這是目前同步在進行的。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，謝謝。"],["蕭署長煥章：謝謝委員。"],["黃委員秀芳：謝謝署長、謝謝部長，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃秀芳委員的質詢。","接下來請林淑芬委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":270,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-16","speakers":["王育敏","蘇清泉","陳菁徽","陳昭姿","林月琴","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","涂權吉","鄭天財Sra 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案 。"},{"start":145.35,"end":171.049,"text":"〔議員〕"},{"start":171.049,"end":174.671,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具 «工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案 案 〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案 案 〉"},{"start":197.908,"end":220.405,"text":"議員包委因為現行的規範本來就是每30天發放一次那因為我們之前的規定就是因為考量到說有些是因為我們現在是期出發給我們都是每個月都是期出就發給錢發錢給他那有些會提早復職或者他會有零頭因為6個月不會剛好剛好例如說假設6月他可能"},{"start":227.29,"end":228.531,"text":" »:所以你們現在是要怎麼計算?"},{"start":256.441,"end":257.342,"text":"兆元乃兆元乃兆元乃兆元"},{"start":286.084,"end":301.475,"text":"),委員王育敏等18人擬具 «工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案﹑立法院第11屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會及第六條條文修正草案案﹑立法院第12會期社會福利及第六條條文修正草案案﹑立法院第13會期社會福利及第16會期社會福利及第16會期社會福利及第17會期社會福利及第18會期社會福利及第18會期社會福利及第17會期社會福利及第18會期社會福利及第18會期社會福利及第17會期社會福利及第18會期社會福利及第18會期社會福利及第18會期社會福"},{"start":311.542,"end":326.498,"text":"除此之外,我們有很多事情要檢討,希望如果這個制度要走,如果適合台灣的一個好的制度,我們大概要向外的配套軍去把它檢討出來,然後包括剛剛委員在關心的這個是不是也要修規範,這個都會一併來討論。"},{"start":329.321,"end":348.722,"text":"委員我接下來請教就是說我們這個外送這個平台我看到就是說勞動部有在3月18號有特別發文給這兩個外送的平台就是說甚至我們那個司長也有親自拜會這兩大平台司長對不對"},{"start":349.663,"end":367.746,"text":"對啦,那就是說可能就是說道德勸說這個外送費用的透明化或者是明確化啦那我想請教就是說你們在3月18號發文給這兩個這個外送平台那他們有回覆了嗎?還沒有,是。"},{"start":369.148,"end":382.594,"text":"包括委員到目前為止他們還在研議不過我們在5月29號要開下一次第六次的平台會議那我們會在當天就是這個議題會列我們當天很重要的一個討論的一個事項"},{"start":386.176,"end":413.439,"text":"公務員報告我們有提到因為保障他們的新報酬的方法途徑如果他覺得用這個方法不是對他們來講不是最理想的做法因為都有公會在我們是雙方就平台的溝通他們可以提出另外一些什麼樣的做法跟比較具體的一個確保我們外送員的報酬能夠比較穩定可以設計然後當場勞資雙方可以來做一些溝通再找看比較適合的方法"},{"start":414.019,"end":418.702,"text":"),委員王育敏等19人擬具 «工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":444.439,"end":446.52,"text":"​​國民黨黨團擬具 «工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案。​​​​​​​​"},{"start":469.671,"end":491.857,"text":"當然就是司長我們一定會保障衛生委員的權益政府該有什麼態度就應該是要展現出來那我們是希望大家能夠是和諧的去把問題解決當然如果相應部理該有的政府的公權力就要拿出來我相信未來新的部長也會支持好 謝謝接下來我是不是請消防署署長好不好"},{"start":498.982,"end":525.887,"text":"主席,在這幾年當中,消防員為了打火造成傷亡的事件非常多。我相信很多的消防員他們最期待就是說第一個你裝備一定要齊全,所有的裝備一定要齊全。有的打火兄弟他一進到火場也許"},{"start":526.647,"end":549.411,"text":"), ️ ️ ️"},{"start":549.471,"end":566.344,"text":"感謝委員這麼關心消防事實上真的要達成安全要三個層面剛剛委員講到第一層面就是裝備、器材、車輛、聽色這個部分閒置遠遠準了23個計畫那未來幾年應該差不多有200億的經費會投注在整個在B線的所以你逐年要有多少會撥入?"},{"start":568.026,"end":581.874,"text":"五年差不多兩百萬每年至少差不多四十萬的經費會投注在這個五年多少兩百億五年兩百億對目前都已經核定的所以這個部分在中費汽車輛這個部分已經在執行當中"},{"start":584.936,"end":614.016,"text":"除了要達到管理的一個層面所以我們現在消防法也修正了增加我們消防法的治安專章那這個案子已經報到憲政院那最近會報到大院裡面來做一個審查也就把整個安全管理機制建立好那這個機制事實上在三年之前我們就開始在執行也是從三年之前找兩個縣市那去年找八個縣市那今年會找16個縣市把先期的安全文化機制做一個輔導"},{"start":614.616,"end":630.794,"text":"), ️ ️"},{"start":630.954,"end":650.957,"text":"最後一個部分就是整個安全文化建制就是法律面、執行面、輔導面的執行我們預期是至少要5年的時間逐步由上而下來雙重做這方面建制是比較能夠達成這樣的目標那也不是一個說要成立工會或者要成立協會這個就可以達得到"},{"start":651.237,"end":663.883,"text":"), 委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案件及工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件"},{"start":677.27,"end":698.696,"text":"當然就是說我們希望消防員的這個權益要保障就剛剛署長講的你五年現在要投入200億可能就是說整個裝備或者是整個設施就投入那當然就是說我覺得第一線的這個人員的這個現場火場當中的這個這個判斷就我覺得也非常的重要"},{"start":699.036,"end":715.043,"text":"), ️ ️ ️"},{"start":716.364,"end":739.245,"text":"除了裝備或職業安全,所有火場指揮官的指揮調度也是非常重要的。所以剛剛委員報告就是由下而上的概念,每一位要有職業安全文化的概念。消防營運的養成教育目前會調整成一整年對技術的教育訓練。目前這個制度跟做法已經確認,目前也正在作業。"},{"start":740.026,"end":753.234,"text":"), ️ ️"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}