{"error":false,"id":["152459"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":152459,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152459","日期":"2024-05-13","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-26-16","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":16,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-05-13T11:56:50+08:00","結束時間":"2024-05-13T12:11:05+08:00","影片長度":"00:14:15","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d7e25ee5d31e173474e53dfb0b2329d5ab4a2946638eec232d94006c6d412c4d422a069ce37fbd0c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉建國","委員發言時間":"11:56:50 - 12:11:05","會議時間":"2024-05-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員王育敏等21人擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)國民黨黨團擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一)委員王育敏等18人擬具「勞動基準法第五十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)國民黨黨團擬具「勞動基準法第五十四條及第八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查\n(一)委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第二十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員王育敏等18人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第九條及第二十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員馬文君等22人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱若華等20人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n【一、(三)及(四)案：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【三、(四)案：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【討論事項綜合詢答】\n【5月13日、15日及16日三天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":1001,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（11時56分）謝謝主席。有請部長。"],["主席：請許部長。"],["許部長銘春：委員好。"],["劉委員建國：部長，今天是你在這邊的最後一天。"],["許部長銘春：最後一天詢答，我要到519才是最後一天了。"],["劉委員建國：我還沒有講完啦！你不要這麼緊張，我說今天是你在委員會接受備詢的最後一天。"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["劉委員建國：你也是中華民國在職最久的勞動部部長，有沒有什麼樣刻骨銘心的感言要跟委員會簡單闡述一下呢？給你一分鐘。"],["許部長銘春：我很謝謝有這個機會擔任全國勞工兄弟姐妹的大工頭，我也努力把握每一天的機會，能夠為勞工多做一點事情，當然沒有辦法做到一百分，永遠都有努力的空間，但我盡力而為，也謝謝包括所有的立法委員，還有包括所有我們的勞工朋友，還有包括我自己的同仁，大家都非常支持，都為了照顧勞工一起來努力，謝謝。"],["劉委員建國：好，謝謝部長。我會珍惜你在這個委員會的最後一次，我還是要再提醒部長，在新舊部長交接之際，有一件事情一定要非常慎重來面對，就是移工失聯的問題，2月16日臺印簽署了視訊的MOU，然後3月6號衛環也排了一個針對開放之後對本國勞工就業市場之衝擊的專題報告，我要講的是，這會變成新任部長一個首要的任務，這是其一；其二是到目前為止，臺灣有八萬五千多名的逃逸外勞，我們要怎麼去面對這個問題，這是絕對沒有辦法矇混過關的，因為部長已經要到任了，所以新任部長上來後刻不容緩要面對這個事情，但是我知道你們有在準備修就服法，針對每案裁罰15萬到75萬，改提高為以每人計罰；然後提高非法媒介罰款至3倍，從罰款10萬到50萬提高到每人開罰30萬到150萬，加重其刑責，目前的草案應該是朝這個方向，對不對？沒有錯吧？"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["劉委員建國：等於這個修法的重責大任會落在新部長的身上，但是我現在要請教部長，這個法案何時會送進來？"],["許部長銘春：這個還在行政院，其實我們這個草案提出一段時間了，但因為主要還是要先解決缺工的問題，所以這個部分目前行政院還在……"],["劉委員建國：這個部分請部長跟新部長要有一定程度的交接，好不好？就是說移工的失聯原因包括經濟因素、勞動條件還有雇主不當對待等，也不全然是非法仲介的問題，這個大家都非常清楚嘛！你看在2022年美國國務院的人權報告中也提到臺灣移工問題，有提出相關警訊，移工來臺工作常因背負高額的仲介費，面臨剝削，有抵債勞動的風險，因為移工來這邊是為了賺錢而不是還債，所以條件不好自然就會跑嘛！那你看日本還有韓國也朝向放寬移工市場的限制，我想如果屆時在國際市場做比較，到時候臺灣要引進更多的移工可能會有一定程度的挑戰跟難度嘛！所以對這個部分以部長的經驗要交接給新的部長，要好好來面對這個事情，這是其一。"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["劉委員建國：其二，我為什麼要用一點點時間來講這個事情？因為等一下我們要回到今天的主題也就是工會法，臺灣不僅是移工有風險存在，連當臺灣的公務人員都有基本上的過勞風險，這個大家都非常清楚。部長，你看臺灣失聯8萬5,000名的移工要怎麼查，我要給你們一個數據，先請內政部還有移民署的官員上臺，時間比較不會延宕啦！"],["主席：今天沒有移民署的人員。"],["劉委員建國：你看，移民署到112年11月30號的統計，移民署的專勤隊共計576人，只有這576人在查緝全臺八萬五千多名移工，這個要怎麼查？今天沒有移民署的人員，那應該有內政部的人員吧！"],["主席：只有警政署。"],["劉委員建國：也沒有內政部的人員？"],["主席：他是內政部人事處的人員。"],["劉委員建國：人事處也可以來說明，請你上來，時間要暫停，警政署人員也可以上來。移民署有一個國境大隊，到去年10月31號統計是839人要負責國家出入境的業務，那國境大隊在2019年的離職率超過8%，在疫情過後，旅客人數回升，去年的離職率已經高達12%，成長了將近50%，我想這個內政部應該都有掌握，對不對？然後警察爆退休潮，彰化縣在今年有555人申請，員警講了一句話：不戀棧、不如歸去，他們原本的員額編制是3,084，目前實際的員額是2,799，結果今年就有555人申請退休。當然不是申請退休就表示可以退休，對不對？還要依公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第十七條規定，任職滿二十五年即可申請退休，我們警政署還是內政部有掌握到彰化縣的警局有多少員警單純是滿二十五年以上，他其實還能再繼續服勤，但是他也選擇退休，有掌握嗎？"],["陳副署長永利：報告委員，這部分我真的不是很瞭解，但是剛剛提到的數字，其實他們最近這幾年提出來大概都在400到500人之間，但是真正退休的大概就是100人以內，其實這個是有相當的差距。"],["劉委員建國：那為什麼每次都是這麼多人提出要退休，是不是像我講的，就是滿二十五年就可以提退休，對不對？"],["陳副署長永利：對，是一般外勤，內勤是……"],["劉委員建國：在2021年是368人提出，在2022年是433人，在2023年即去年是525人，今年已經達到555人，就是在持續往上，你們有掌握這個狀況是什麼狀況嗎？是不是誠如他們所講的：不戀棧、不如歸去啦？是什麼原因嘛？他們是在做無聲的抗議，然後你們也視若無睹，現在警察人力是不足，你知道現在顧守我們立法院的這些員警的缺額大致上都保持多少嗎？你們知道嗎？"],["陳副署長永利：其實目前全國警察的缺額大概是四千多名。"],["劉委員建國：有四千多名，就是人力一直不足，一直補不到位，對不對？"],["陳副署長永利：這個主要是因為容訓量的問題。"],["劉委員建國：對，那你人力不足的時候，你排班會不會出問題？會嘛！對不對？"],["陳副署長永利：以目前來講，我們……"],["劉委員建國：你敢說沒有問題？你要講清楚喔！你轄區這麼多單位喔！不是只有地方警察局而已喔，你除了保一、保二、保三、保四、保五，還有很多的單位，在缺乏人力的時候，可以協商嗎？缺乏人力的時候，你排班會順暢嗎？缺乏人力的時候，他們提出訴求，你們怎麼因應、怎麼處理？"],["陳副署長永利：報告委員，我想這部分目前我們因應的辦法是，其實行政院就我們警察目前的治安狀況有特別增加四千多名的預算員額，這個原來是……"],["劉委員建國：重點是你們補了嗎？還是沒補嘛，還是補不到嘛！"],["陳副署長永利：四千多員額已經補了。"],["劉委員建國：已經補了？"],["陳副署長永利：當然目前就是每一年還是會有缺額，只是說這四千多名目前因應整個警力運用的狀況，行政院原來是規定我們要分10年，這四千多名要歸還……"],["劉委員建國：10年？"],["陳副署長永利：目前我們還在協商，這部分可能……"],["劉委員建國：10年？我們兩個可能都不在這裡了，對不對？"],["陳副署長永利：這部分有在協商，可能行政院這方面的要求……"],["劉委員建國：你們的協商就有問題了，你怎麼跟基層人力可以有一個順暢的協商管道？不可能啦！"],["陳副署長永利：我們目前有從一四五……他平常是沒有固定的勤務，是機動支援縣市，目前我們已經由一四五調來支援縣市警察局。"],["劉委員建國：你要跟我講樣態的狀況，可能要請主席給我更多時間，不然會很困難，我是跟你講現今全部的狀態，對不對？"],["陳副署長永利：是。"],["劉委員建國：你請休息一下。有請法務部的參事，我們目前面對這麼大量的詐騙案，司法人力嚴重不足，法務部也爭取到111年至114年分4年要增加司法人力600人，相關細節我就不講了，檢察官50人、檢察事務官250人，還有包含法警50人等等。我請教一下，目前的人力到位狀況怎麼樣？"],["汪參事南均：目前的人力……"],["劉委員建國：分4年，對不對？到明年就滿4年了，對不對？這些人現在補齊的狀況如何？"],["汪參事南均：應該都還在進行中，還是沒有……"],["劉委員建國：幾成？600名已經達標幾成了？剩下一年半的時間。"],["汪參事南均：委員，這個部分是不是可以容我回去有比較……"],["劉委員建國：所以你沒有掌握嘛！好，那我再請教一下，我們去年在司法及法制委員會有幫檢察官爭取檢察官助理100名，應該到位了嘛！法務部自己提出要再增聘150名，確定了嗎？你也不知道？"],["汪參事南均：這個部分是檢察司的業務，我想我回去可以請他們再提供比較精確的數字給委員。"],["劉委員建國：所以你不清楚，好，謝謝，那你請回座。我現在還是要講人力的問題啦！不管從警察的人力，不管從司法的人力，不管從移民署專勤隊的人力五百多名要去面對八萬多名的逃逸外勞，要怎麼去面對？大家在關注警察人力、消防人力在補充速度上面，坦白講都是杯水車薪，真的很慢，今天不管是警消人員提出相關的團結權、協商權還有相關的爭議權，不給！如果說你們給了，請問遇到人力不足、遇到排班問題，能協商嗎？"],["許簡任視察孟智：人力的部分就是請移民署這邊檢討完之後，如果真的確實有人力的需求，我們會跟行政院來做支持、來爭取，謝謝。"],["劉委員建國：銓敘部今天有人來嗎？銓敘部有一個報告實在是太精彩的報告，4個字送給你，叫做「離離落落」。我去年在司法及法制委員會有特別提到，當這些事情你都不好好溝通，然後一個銓敘部變成一個僵硬部的時候，這個事情會越來越糟糕，你不站在基層公務人員的角度去瞭解他們所遇到的樣態，然後積極的協調、協商，找出一個大家可以共識、一個可遵循的方式往下走下去，到時候問題就會越來越大了。所以我那天有特別提到，那天我垂詢的是部長，我問他，當逼到這些基層公務人員跟你魚死網破的時候，他也不管什麼法律，他也不會想什麼規範，他就要跟你拚了，請教你要怎麼處理？"],["朱次長楠賢：我們還是從協商權，讓他多一點協商權。"],["劉委員建國：協商權我剛才就講了嘛，當人力不足的時候，可以協商嗎？"],["朱次長楠賢：勤休方式是可以協商的。"],["劉委員建國：勤休可以協商？消防署、警政署、海巡署認為現在人力不足，想進行勤休協商，這個勤休到底是可以協商的項目還是不可協商的項目？你確定是可以協商的項目？"],["朱次長楠賢：可以，新的法是可以。"],["劉委員建國：新的法嘛！還未修法之前是不行嘛，對不對？"],["朱次長楠賢：我們放進去了。"],["劉委員建國：好，當人力不足的時候怎麼協商？"],["朱次長楠賢：就是協商啊！看看是增援，還是怎麼樣。"],["劉委員建國：就協商？你教我怎麼協商，好不好？這個team、這個單位缺了10%到20%的人力，排班就排不出來，他要跟你協商，你怎麼協商嘛？你教我一下啊！怎麼計算？怎麼溝通？怎麼協調？怎麼下紀錄？怎麼協商？你修的新的法律裡面怎麼依據協商？沒有辦法，不要在那邊隨便亂唬弄啦！不要再「零零落落」了！去年問的時候也是這樣，你們部長答詢我也是這樣，今天你代表來還是答成這樣，可以協商！缺乏人力的時候怎麼協商？還是可以協商？請教你，怎麼協商嘛？這實在讓人生氣！謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝劉建國委員的質詢，我們禮拜三會來處理。","接下來我們請陳培瑜委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":270,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-16","speakers":["王育敏","蘇清泉","陳菁徽","陳昭姿","林月琴","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","涂權吉","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","王正旭","黃秀芳","林淑芬","牛煦庭","劉建國","陳培瑜","黃國昌","張智倫","李彥秀","邱志偉","陳瑩","楊曜","盧縣一"],"page_start":189,"meetingDate":["2024-05-13"],"gazette_id":"1134603","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134603_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查(一)委員王育敏等21人擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案、(二)國民黨黨\n團擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「工會法第四條\n及第六條條文修正草案」案、(四)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」\n案；二、審查(一)委員王育敏等18人擬具「勞動基準法第五十四條條文修正草案」案、(二)國民\n黨黨團擬具「勞動基準法第五十四條及第八十六條條文修正草案」案；三、審查(一)委員郭昱晴\n等19人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員王育敏等18\n人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第九條及第二十九條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員馬文君\n等22人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員邱若華等20人擬\n具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1134603_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.418468750000001,"end":5.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.48159375,"end":6.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7.40534375,"end":8.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.505968750000001,"end":12.704093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11.961593750000002,"end":12.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12.29909375,"end":12.450968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.04159375,"end":14.442218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14.965343750000002,"end":14.982218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.20159375,"end":17.445968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15.62346875,"end":20.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.94346875,"end":26.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":25.39409375,"end":25.613468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.613468750000003,"end":25.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.68096875,"end":25.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.96784375,"end":26.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.84534375,"end":31.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.97534375,"end":36.447218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.68346875,"end":37.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":38.62409375,"end":40.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.14721875,"end":39.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":40.81784375,"end":43.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":43.58534375,"end":49.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":49.727843750000005,"end":52.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":53.06909375,"end":59.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":59.70096875,"end":60.03846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":60.10596875,"end":67.95284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":68.08784375,"end":74.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":74.98971875000001,"end":79.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.73159375,"end":92.48909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":92.60721875,"end":92.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.92784375000001,"end":150.28596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.79221875000002,"end":158.85846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.26346875000002,"end":161.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.20409375,"end":164.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":165.70971875,"end":166.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":167.09346875,"end":170.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":170.95784375000002,"end":171.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":172.02096875,"end":176.88096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":177.43784375,"end":179.66534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.14221875,"end":184.05284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.54221875000002,"end":185.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.16221875000002,"end":192.86159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":193.01346875000002,"end":193.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.04721875,"end":210.63096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.08659375000002,"end":244.73534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.45409375000003,"end":235.47096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":235.47096875000003,"end":235.57221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":235.57221875000002,"end":235.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":235.67346875,"end":235.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.40596875000003,"end":252.81846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.22346875000002,"end":254.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.19784375,"end":258.38721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.85534375000003,"end":262.84221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.06159375000004,"end":267.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":268.24221875,"end":268.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":269.22096875,"end":270.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.11534375,"end":273.38909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":270.14909375,"end":270.23346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":270.73971875,"end":272.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.76034375,"end":280.49346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.13471875,"end":285.03284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":285.35346875,"end":286.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.41221875,"end":289.21784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":290.24721875,"end":291.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.19221875,"end":291.91784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":292.77846875,"end":295.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.46159375,"end":296.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.46971875,"end":298.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.26284375,"end":299.56221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.67596875000004,"end":302.43096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.42659375,"end":315.34034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.03221875,"end":323.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.49096875000004,"end":325.95471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.37659375000004,"end":326.86596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.49846875000003,"end":330.91596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.50659375000004,"end":333.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.12221875,"end":337.41284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.18909375000004,"end":345.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.49159375000005,"end":346.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.41971875,"end":359.35034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.89034375,"end":372.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.57159375000003,"end":375.24659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":375.87096875000003,"end":381.45659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.79409375,"end":388.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":388.89846875,"end":392.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":392.57721875000004,"end":399.52971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":399.52971875000003,"end":399.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":399.73221875,"end":401.04846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":400.37346875000003,"end":402.34784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":402.12846875,"end":414.71721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":415.34159375,"end":417.50159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":418.44659375000003,"end":419.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":419.84721875,"end":421.16346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":422.54721875,"end":423.34034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":426.90096875,"end":426.91784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":426.91784375000003,"end":427.06971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":428.50409375000004,"end":431.25471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":432.46971875,"end":437.92034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":438.24096875000004,"end":439.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":439.99596875000003,"end":440.80596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":442.40909375,"end":442.98284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":443.38784375,"end":445.10909375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":445.56471875000005,"end":446.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":446.84721875,"end":451.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":451.65659375,"end":455.68971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":452.02784375000005,"end":453.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":454.74471875,"end":459.06471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":457.84971875,"end":458.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":458.67659375000005,"end":461.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":461.78159375,"end":462.47346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":461.88284375,"end":462.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":462.69284375,"end":464.12721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":464.31284375,"end":465.24096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":465.39284375000005,"end":466.21971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":466.94534375,"end":467.77221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":468.05909375000005,"end":469.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":470.18534375,"end":472.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":472.59846875000005,"end":474.35346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":474.77534375000005,"end":475.90596875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":476.66534375000003,"end":477.57659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":478.43721875000006,"end":479.12909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":480.64784375000005,"end":482.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":483.34784375000004,"end":487.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":488.20784375000005,"end":499.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":499.21034375000005,"end":501.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":500.74596875000003,"end":504.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":503.22659375,"end":506.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":505.33596875,"end":505.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":506.24721875000006,"end":510.66846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":510.97221875,"end":514.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":514.71846875,"end":517.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":518.07659375,"end":520.57409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":520.70909375,"end":522.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":520.7765937500001,"end":521.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":522.00846875,"end":522.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":523.15596875,"end":524.3034687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":524.67471875,"end":526.2778437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":524.96159375,"end":525.6028437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":526.2778437500001,"end":526.8684687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":527.30721875,"end":527.6953437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":527.6953437500001,"end":534.2765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":530.68221875,"end":537.6853437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":535.0359687499999,"end":540.4865937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":540.7903437500001,"end":547.3547187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":544.62096875,"end":549.9197187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":550.1728437500001,"end":555.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":555.4209687499999,"end":557.8003437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":557.86784375,"end":557.9184687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":557.9184687500001,"end":558.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":558.15471875,"end":558.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":558.7622187500001,"end":560.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":560.9897187500001,"end":562.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":563.79096875,"end":567.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":567.40221875,"end":569.7140937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":570.08534375,"end":578.5903437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":578.84346875,"end":579.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":579.7209687500001,"end":581.1553437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":581.4084687500001,"end":583.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":584.46284375,"end":585.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":587.0447187500001,"end":587.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":587.95596875,"end":589.4072187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":589.64346875,"end":592.6472187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":593.1028437500001,"end":594.7903437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":595.66784375,"end":595.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":596.2078437499999,"end":598.7390937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":598.5872187500001,"end":599.1103437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":599.7178437499999,"end":601.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":602.6709687499999,"end":603.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":605.3372187500001,"end":609.9609687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":608.89784375,"end":610.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":610.88909375,"end":617.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":617.9765937500001,"end":618.8372187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":619.14096875,"end":622.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":623.79846875,"end":624.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":625.92471875,"end":626.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":626.05971875,"end":632.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":632.1515937500001,"end":635.1384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":635.89784375,"end":640.0490937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":640.7240937500001,"end":643.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":644.2509687500001,"end":645.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":646.32659375,"end":647.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":647.86221875,"end":648.3347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":649.0434687500001,"end":649.6172187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":650.1909687500001,"end":650.8490937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":651.79409375,"end":652.24971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":654.9665937500001,"end":655.3547187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":658.24034375,"end":658.7297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":658.51034375,"end":664.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":658.7465937500001,"end":658.7634687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":658.8647187500001,"end":658.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":664.9565937500001,"end":665.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":666.6103437500001,"end":676.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":676.66784375,"end":678.9965937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":679.4522187500002,"end":679.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":682.28721875,"end":682.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":684.53159375,"end":685.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":685.84784375,"end":686.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":686.84346875,"end":687.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":690.2353437500001,"end":698.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":699.16221875,"end":701.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":702.14909375,"end":703.71846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":704.1572187500001,"end":704.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":704.95034375,"end":705.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":705.82784375,"end":706.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":710.87346875,"end":713.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":713.69159375,"end":720.7453437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":721.40346875,"end":734.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":734.8528437500001,"end":738.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":739.0209687500001,"end":739.8815937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":740.4722187500001,"end":742.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":743.18909375,"end":749.5678437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":750.37784375,"end":752.5209687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":752.75721875,"end":753.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":754.3603437500001,"end":755.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":757.80284375,"end":762.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":762.73034375,"end":765.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":766.6453437499999,"end":768.4678437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":768.68721875,"end":768.7040937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":768.7040937500001,"end":770.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":770.8134687500001,"end":781.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":780.29721875,"end":780.5165937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":781.32659375,"end":781.71471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":781.7822187500001,"end":783.6553437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":783.7903437500001,"end":786.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":786.67596875,"end":787.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":787.8234687500001,"end":790.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":792.5990937500001,"end":795.1640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":795.40034375,"end":796.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":797.0034687500001,"end":798.2690937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":798.47159375,"end":802.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":802.85909375,"end":806.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":807.90471875,"end":808.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":809.4909687500001,"end":810.2165937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":810.85784375,"end":813.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":814.04721875,"end":814.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":815.9878437500001,"end":817.6584687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":818.3334687500001,"end":819.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":823.10909375,"end":825.3703437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":825.9609687500001,"end":827.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":830.9053437500002,"end":837.0815937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":837.16596875,"end":839.7647187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":839.95034375,"end":840.6928437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":840.7434687500001,"end":841.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":848.3203437500001,"end":849.4340937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":850.34534375,"end":851.1215937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":852.5053437500001,"end":855.28971875}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.918,"end":8.066,"text":"謝主席有請部長好請許部長"},{"start":12.15,"end":39.523,"text":"副總,今天是你最後的一天了。在這邊的最後一天備詢了。我還沒有講完啦,你不要這麼緊張。我說今天是你在委員會接受備詢的最後一天。你也是中華民國在職最久的勞動部的部長。有沒有什麼樣刻骨銘心的感言要跟委員會簡單做一個闡述一下?給你一分鐘。"},{"start":40.871,"end":59.001,"text":"我是很謝謝有這個機會來擔任全國勞工兄弟姊妹的大工頭,大工頭。我也努力把握每一天的機會來能夠為勞工多做一點事情,但是當然沒有辦法做到"},{"start":60.282,"end":63.805,"text":"),委員王育敏等19人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":80.098,"end":97.451,"text":"好,謝謝部長。我會珍惜這個委員會最後一次。我還是要再提醒部長,在新界部長交接之際,有一件事情一定要非常慎重來面對,就是移工失聯的問題。在2月16號,我們台運就用這個簽署視訊的MOU,然後3月6號衛環也排了這樣的一個"},{"start":103.395,"end":104.676,"text":"除此之外,至今臺灣有8萬5千人逃逸外勞。"},{"start":118.027,"end":132.062,"text":"除此之外,我們要怎麼去面對這個問題?這個絕對沒有辦法門戶過關,因為部長已經要到任的,所以現在部長來科普農法院要面對這個事情。但是我知道你們有在準備,就是要修這個就業法、就務法,針對每案的4萬到75萬來裁划。"},{"start":136.386,"end":163.863,"text":"改為提高為美能計劃然後提高非法媒介罰款3倍從10萬到50萬的罰款提高到美能是開罰30萬到150萬加重這個刑責目前的草案應該是這個方向對不對沒有錯嘛那等於這個修法的重責當然會落在新部長的身上但是我現在要請教部長這個法案何時會送進來"},{"start":165.742,"end":165.822,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具"},{"start":186.329,"end":209.348,"text":"移工的私人原因包括經濟因素、勞動條件還有固執不當的對待等完全不全然是非法仲介的問題這個大家都非常清楚你看這個2022年的美國國務院的人權報告中也提到臺灣移工問題提出相關警訊移工來台工作常因背負高額的仲介費面臨剝削有抵債勞動的風險"},{"start":211.189,"end":235.209,"text":"所以移工來這邊是賺錢而不是來還債條件不然這人就會跑嘛那你看日本還有韓國也朝向這個放寬移工的市長的限制然後我想如果屆時在國際市場做比較到時候臺灣要引進更多的移工可能會有一定程度的挑戰跟難度嘛所以這部分以部長的經驗要交接給新的部長要好好來面對這個事情"},{"start":235.969,"end":258.186,"text":"其一,我為什麼要用一點點時間來針對這個事情,因為等一下我們要回到這個主題就工會法。台灣不僅是這個移工有風險存在,連當台灣的工人員都有基本上的過勞風險,這個大家都非常清楚。不然你看台灣失聯8萬5千名的移工要怎麼查?"},{"start":259.909,"end":289.112,"text":"我給一個數據請內政部還有這個移民署有相關觀點就上台吧時間這樣比較不會去延宕了移民署截止到112年你看啦移民署到112年11月30號統計移民署專勤隊共計是576年576人在查緝全北8萬5千多名移工這個要怎麼查沒有移民署那應該有內政部的人吧"},{"start":290.285,"end":307.753,"text":"只有警政署：沒有內政部：內政部有人：他是人事處：人事處也可以來那請來吧時間要聽起來警政署也可以上來吧然後另外營運署有一個國境大隊到去年10月31統計是839人要負責國家促進的這個業務了那國境大隊在2019年的時候離職率超過8%"},{"start":316.104,"end":326.492,"text":"疫情過後旅客回升後,去年的歷史率已經高達12%,將近50%的成長。為什麼這個內政部應該都要掌握嘛,對不對。然後,警察報退休潮。照發現在今年555人申請。那原警講一句話,不練戰不如歸去。他原本的編制是3084,目前實力的原理是2799,結果今年就有555人這個申請退休。"},{"start":346.533,"end":371.791,"text":"然後當然不是申請退休他就能表示可以退休嘛對不對他要一公認員退休之前撫恤法的第十七條規定任職滿25年即可申請退休警務署還是內政部有講到彰化縣的警局有多少的員警單純是滿25年以上他其實還能再繼續撫恤但是他也選擇退休有掌握嗎"},{"start":376.202,"end":392.001,"text":"包括委員這部分我真的不是很了解但是剛剛提到的數字其實他們最近這幾年提出來大概都400到500之間但是真正到退休大概就是100人以內其實這個是有相當的差距"},{"start":392.928,"end":418.816,"text":"為什麼每次都會這麼多人提出要退休?是不是跟我講的嘛?就是滿25年就可以提退休嘛,對不對?對。一般外勤啦,內勤是不...但是2021年是368人提出啦。2022是433啦齁。2023去年是525嘛。那今年喔?今年已經達到555了。結果實在持續往上嘛。那你們有掌握這個狀況是什麼狀況嗎?是不是他們所講的不練戰不如歸去啊?"},{"start":422.651,"end":445.961,"text":"什麼原因嗎?他們是在做無聲的抗議,然後你們也視若無睹。這個警察能力是不足啦。你知道現在在固守我們立法院的這些員警的缺額大致上是保持多少嗎?你們知道嗎?"},{"start":447.066,"end":469.252,"text":"其實這個車餌目前全國警察的車餌大概4千多名。人力一直不足一直補不到位。那這個主要是因為容性量的問題。那你人力不足的時候你排班會不會出問題?會嘛對不對?目前來講我們...你敢說沒有問題?你要講清楚喔!這麼多單位喔!你轄管這麼多單位喔!"},{"start":470.216,"end":471.977,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案 案 案"},{"start":488.491,"end":501.5,"text":"委員,我想這一部分目前我們應用的辦法是其實行政院就我們警察目前的治安狀況有特別增加4000多名的預算援友那這個原來是重點你們補了嗎?還是沒補嗎?還是補不到嗎?4000多援友已經補了"},{"start":507.144,"end":524.099,"text":"當然目前每一年還是會有缺額只是說這四千多名目前整個警力應用的狀況行政院原來是規定我們要分十年這四千多名要歸還那目前我們還在實際上這一部分可能"},{"start":524.599,"end":554.565,"text":"獎項獎項獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎"},{"start":555.574,"end":582.982,"text":"就是全部的現金的一個狀態嘛對不對你請休息一下好不好那有請法務部的參事我們目前面對到這麼大量的詐騙的這個案嘛司法能力嚴重不足那法務部也爭取到11年到14年分4年要增加司法能力600人嘛相關細節我就不講了檢察官50人檢察司務官250人然後搭搭搭也包含華警50人我請教一下目前的人力"},{"start":584.548,"end":603.393,"text":"人力到位狀況怎麼樣目前的人力很適當嘛對不對到明年就四年滿了嘛對不對對阿這些人現在補齊了怎麼樣應該都還是在進行中還是沒有幾成嘛幾成600已經達標幾成了剩下一年半的時間"},{"start":605.573,"end":620.981,"text":"委員是不是這個可以容我回去有這個... 所以你沒有掌握嗎?好,那我再請教一下,我們在去年在司法法制委員會議有幫檢察官來爭取這一個檢察官助理100名,應該到位了嘛。那法務部自己在提出要再爭辯150名,確定了嗎?"},{"start":626.751,"end":652.107,"text":"這個部分是檢察司的業務我想我回去可以請他們再提供比較精確的數字給委員所以你不清楚好謝謝那就請回我現在還是要講人力的問題不管從警察人力不管從司法的人力不管從那個移民所專勤隊的人力五百多名要去面對八萬多名的這些逃逸外勞怎麼去面對內政部內政部"},{"start":658.548,"end":676.999,"text":"大家在關注警察能力消耗能力在補充速度之上坦白講都是杯水車薪啦出門的啦好那今天這些不管是警消的能力在提警消的人員在提出相關的這些團結權還有我們的協商權還有相關的這個爭議權不給你們給了遇到人力遇到排放問題能協商嗎"},{"start":690.307,"end":706.587,"text":"人力的部分的話就是請那個移民署這邊檢討完之後若真的確實有人力的需求我們會跟行政院來做支持來爭取謝謝全序部今天又來嘛全序部有個報告實在是太精彩報告四個字送給你叫做哩哩浪浪"},{"start":710.919,"end":738.372,"text":"我去年在市委會特別提到說當你這些事情都不好好溝通然後一個情緒部變成一個僵硬部的時候這事情會越來越糟糕你不站在基層公務人員的角度跟他們的這樣的一個遇到這樣的樣態然後去積極的去協調、協商找出一個大家可以共識的一個可遵循的方式來往下走下去那到時候問題就會越來越大了"},{"start":739.476,"end":755.607,"text":"所以我那天有特別提到,我不曉得那天是部長,我在全巡邏是部長,我問他嘛,你當逼著這些基層工人員跟你魚死網破的時候啦,他也不管什麼法律,他也不管什麼規範的,他就要跟你拚了。請教他,你要怎麼處理?我們還是從這個協商權啊,讓他多一點協商權。那協商權我剛才就講了嘛,當人力不足的時候可以協商嗎?"},{"start":767.118,"end":796.077,"text":"這擬修方式是可以協商的?擬修可以協商?消防署、警政署、海巡署認為現在人力不足,想進行擬修協商。這個擬修到底是可以協商的項目還是不可協商的項目?你確定是可以協商的項目嗎?可以。新的法是可以。新的法嘛。還未修完之前是不行嘛,對不對?我們已經放進去了。好。啊當人力不足的時候怎麼協商?就是協商啊。看看是真元還是怎麼樣。就協商。"},{"start":797.039,"end":819.855,"text":" ️ ️ ️ ️"},{"start":823.134,"end":826.956,"text":"沒有辦法不要在那邊隨便亂呼嚨啦不要再哩哩啷啷啦去年問的時候也是這樣你們部長答詢我也是這樣今天你代表來還是答詢這樣可以協商啊吹喚的例子說怎麼協商還是可以協商請教你怎麼協商嘛這是要紅手機啦謝謝主席"},{"start":852.551,"end":852.611,"text":" »:謝謝劉建國委員的質詢。"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}